Camping Merit Badge - Front Country vs. Back Country Camping

[Kudu]

Did you guys all flunk Wood Badge?

 

Delway's Scout understands the true meaning of "inclusiveness." Ask any Den Leader with a plush toy critter!

 

The whole point of Camping Merit Badge requirement 9b is to get parlor boys to Eagle without ever walking into the woods with packs on their backs.

 

If a Scout hates camping (as it is defined by Baden-Powell), then he can ride his bike around a parking lot for four hours, rappel at the mall, or float downstream for four hours. That's what camping is!

 

Watch any Wood Badger explain our Congressional Charter and you will see that Delway's Scout understands "innovation:" The ability to break the spirit of the law by playing word games with the letter of the law (which is only six words to define the backpack option). I know one adult Eagle who has his Scouts walk around a family campground with empty packs and a pedometer to log the four mile "backpack" for option #2. Another adult Eagle Camping Merit Badge counselor has Scouts walk with empty packs around the block at Scout meetings to accomplish the same end.

 

Now really, why is it that Camping Merit Badge is the only badge with an option for Scouts who hate the subject of the badge?

 

In a perfect world, every indoor Merit Badge would have the same option we give boys who hate camping:

 

"Explain to your merit badge counselor the concepts of simple interest and compound interest, OR float downstream eating cupcakes."

 

Hillcourt's use of "real" is as a technical term. In the "Real Patrol" method, Advancement is not a Method of Scouting, but one of the two elements of the "Activities Method." In other words "7. Advancement" it is a list of "Activities" to do while a Patrol seeks "6. Adventure in the Out-of-Doors." So a Scout who "has completed all the requirements" is teaching younger Scouts while out on patrol.

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm

 

In the Wood Badge Troop Method, the "Real" Patrol Leader's job is done by the TROOP Guide, or by a stranger at summer camp in an outdoor classroom setting like ItOLS.

[ScoutNut]

I totally believe in the "nothing less and nothing more" policy, but I don't want to cut corners on a Eagle MB. I'm Inclined to approve his plan providing he gets his patrol to forgo their chuck box with dutch oven and plan and pack in trail meals and trail equipment since 7B & 8D requires him to pack in some of the patrol gear and his patrol agrees to eat a trail meal instead of car camp meal.

 

It seems that while you refuse to allow "nothing less", you are not opposed to adding something "more".

 

If you follow the requirements - as they are written - you will not be "cutting corners". Nowhere in the requirements does it state that the camping, or cooking, MUST be done while on a specific kind of camping trip. Nowhere do the requirements state that dutch oven cooking is not allowed.

 

Requirement 7-B does NOT "require" him to CARRY his pack in anywhere. Requirement 7 is about PREPARING for an overnight - not actually going on one (although that does usually follow it is not required). It also does not require that the pack be backpacked in to remote backpack site. The Scout, and the boys in his patrol, can carry their patrol stuff, in their backpacks, 100 feet from the car to their camp site.

 

Requirement 8-D requires this Scout to cook 3 meals for his patrol. These meals do NOT all have to be on the same trip. Only ONE of the three meals must be a "trail meal requiring the use of a lightweight stove". Notice the requirement does NOT state that the trail meal must be done while on an actual trail. Nor does it state that the trail meal must be done on a backpack trail. The Scout can cook his "trail meal" at base camp overlooking the parking lot if necessary. He can also take his patrol on a hike to the nearest picnic shelter and cook them a "trail meal" lunch.

Very true.

 

However, "encourage", and "require", are two very different things.

[DuctTape]

The simple reality is that going out and camping is harder to do today than it was 50 years ago.

Baloney.

 

50 years ago (1964), few if any Boy Scouts had ever heard of a backpack waist belt, which changed Delway's back country travel as radically as the invention of the stirrup changed the history of warfare.

 

If anything, the worldwide test of a First Class Scout, a 14 mile overnight backpack Journey with a heavy pack hanging directly off our shoulders, was harder 50 years ago.

 

But the whole point of backpacking is that a Boy Scout's direct experience of nature can be the same now as it was 50 years ago.

 

Note that the "simple reality" apology for Parlor Scouting is a description of front country Patrol camping, not Delway's back country backpacking. As such:

 

50 years ago we did not take rifles backpacking. Those of us with Svea 123 stoves did not bother with campfires. Or hatchets. Or gathering firewood. No law then or now prohibits unsupervised teenagers from backpacking in national forests (or most state wilderness areas). Such venues are free, not "more expensive." State-of-the-art backpacks from the 70s & 80s can be purchased now for $5. We never stayed in one place for a week in the back country, and no adult ever checked up on us. We did not use public transportation for backpacking: When I got my driver's license we drove 100 miles to the Adirondacks on school vacations (oh, DuctTape, I lost your Email). I know "21st century" Scouts who drive 200 miles after I get them addicted to backpacking.

 

So why can't "21st century trained" Boy Scout leaders tell the difference between a backpacking trip and a Patrol outing?

 

48 years ago the father of modern Wood Badge, John Larson, won the battle to replace outdoor leadership with indoor leadership:

 

http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html#1965

 

So now Wood Badge is designed for Den Mothers, the "Patrol Method" presentation of Scoutmaster training replaces Patrol Leaders with adult-led EDGE theory (nobody noticed), and we pay our Chief Scout Executive a million dollars a year to bash camping.

 

But Delway the good news: If you stick to your guns (and also give your most mature Scouts some freedom on two-deep back country trips), your Troop's backpack program can become popular beyond your wildest dreams.

 

Check out our January backpack "Cumberland Island National Seashore: Day One" (and Day Two)

 

https://plus.google.com/100437668559826261011/posts

Kudu,

 

Resending original so you have it.

 

dT

[Scouter99]

Hello, I'm a SM and Camping MBC for a relatively new troop. We worked on the camping I totally believe in the "nothing less and nothing more" policy, but I don't want to cut corners on a Eagle MB. I'm Inclined to approve his plan providing he gets his patrol to forgo their chuck box with dutch oven and plan and pack in trail meals and trail equipment since 7B & 8D requires him to pack in some of the patrol gear and his patrol agrees to eat a trail meal instead of car camp meal.

 

p.s. this is the same scout that insists on email interviews instead of face to face or telephone interviews because the requirements do not say you can't.

 

 

It seems that while you refuse to allow "nothing less", you are not opposed to adding something "more".

 

If you follow the requirements - as they are written - you will not be "cutting corners".

 

With ScoutNut 100% on this one.

 

In addition to his comments, what does the boy's patrol have to do with his MB? MBs are an individual pursuit. It's one thing if the Scout wants to ask his patrol to help him by foregoing the gear, it's another for you to dictate it.

 

The broader issue here is that MBs should not be interwoven into the troop program. You can, and I think should, keep MB opportunities in mind, but troop meetings and campouts are not merit badge school. Your dual roles, SM and MB Counselor, will recreate this sticky situation over and over again. Now that you've seen the potential mess early, leave it here. You be the SM, there are plenty of MB counselors.

[Basementdweller]

What a fantastically funny thread......Choked on my coffee.....OH MY.

 

 

This is how we get the no fire building, can't tie a knot, do first aid or find their way out of a paper bag eagles.

 

Soooooooo, Who is his merit badge councilor?????? what does he or she have to say on the subject????

 

Oh that's right you did it as a troop. NOT the way it was intended.

[Rick_in_CA]

I remember 50 years ago as well, and there is a point to be made for BSA today and what it was 50 years ago. There were plenty of times my buddies in the patrol and I would go camping without adults around. Some of the best outings we had. We had a few farmers in the area that were scouts or former scouts and had plenty of "woods" around to find a spot to camp. I wonder if they would even allow the boys to dig latrines anymore. We had to for ALL scout activities except summer camp. We never camped in established campgrounds. Not that they were full, because I remember a 4th of July weekend in a state park in Wisconsin where my folks had a 8mm film projector and the ranger just had a camera, but no way to see his home movies. We threw up a screen and put on his home movies for him and his family on Friday night and Saturday morning there was a pickup load of firewood dumped next to our site. By the way, the four families in our group were the only ones in the park that weekend. My godfather was one of them, he loved to build 8' council bonfires! The ranger came back with family on Saturday and we all had sodas and popcorn and watched the movies again but this time around a huge bonfire.

 

Stuff like that remains in the realm of memories because one isn't going to find many pulling that off today. I do know, however, remote areas where one can hike back in so far that no one can find you and you can sill primitive camp within 20 miles of my house. Just gotta look around and ask a few of the guys "sneaking out in the woods" to camp.

 

I haven' primitive camped since... well last summer with the Mrs. 2 day kayak paddle with overnight along the shore.

 

Stosh

moved

[Rick_in_CA]

The simple reality is that going out and camping is harder to do today than it was 50 years ago.

Baloney.

 

50 years ago (1964), few if any Boy Scouts had ever heard of a backpack waist belt, which changed Delway's back country travel as radically as the invention of the stirrup changed the history of warfare.

 

If anything, the worldwide test of a First Class Scout, a 14 mile overnight backpack Journey with a heavy pack hanging directly off our shoulders, was harder 50 years ago.

 

But the whole point of backpacking is that a Boy Scout's direct experience of nature can be the same now as it was 50 years ago.

 

Note that the "simple reality" apology for Parlor Scouting is a description of front country Patrol camping, not Delway's back country backpacking. As such:

 

50 years ago we did not take rifles backpacking. Those of us with Svea 123 stoves did not bother with campfires. Or hatchets. Or gathering firewood. No law then or now prohibits unsupervised teenagers from backpacking in national forests (or most state wilderness areas). Such venues are free, not "more expensive." State-of-the-art backpacks from the 70s & 80s can be purchased now for $5. We never stayed in one place for a week in the back country, and no adult ever checked up on us. We did not use public transportation for backpacking: When I got my driver's license we drove 100 miles to the Adirondacks on school vacations (oh, DuctTape, I lost your Email). I know "21st century" Scouts who drive 200 miles after I get them addicted to backpacking.

 

So why can't "21st century trained" Boy Scout leaders tell the difference between a backpacking trip and a Patrol outing?

 

48 years ago the father of modern Wood Badge, John Larson, won the battle to replace outdoor leadership with indoor leadership:

 

http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html#1965

 

So now Wood Badge is designed for Den Mothers, the "Patrol Method" presentation of Scoutmaster training replaces Patrol Leaders with adult-led EDGE theory (nobody noticed), and we pay our Chief Scout Executive a million dollars a year to bash camping.

 

But Delway the good news: If you stick to your guns (and also give your most mature Scouts some freedom on two-deep back country trips), your Troop's backpack program can become popular beyond your wildest dreams.

 

Check out our January backpack "Cumberland Island National Seashore: Day One" (and Day Two)

 

https://plus.google.com/100437668559826261011/posts

It's not Baloney. There are more restrictions now.

 

"50 years ago we did not take rifles backpacking." The point wasn't that they were taking rifles, it was that they were camping without direct adult supervision - something the BSA no longer allows.

 

"No law then or now prohibits unsupervised teenagers from backpacking in national forests (or most state wilderness areas)." - incorrect. California state law (which applies even in national forests here) makes it illegal for anyone under the age of 18 to be "out in public" without adult supervision between 10:00 pm and sunrise (there are exceptions for traveling home from a movie, etc.). I've been told camping in a state park is considered "out in public" (I haven't consulted a lawyer on that point however).

 

"When I got my driver's license we drove 100 miles to the Adirondacks on school vacations (oh, DuctTape, I lost your Email). I know "21st century" Scouts who drive 200 miles after I get them addicted to backpacking."

 

In California at least, it is illegal for a driver under the age of 18 to drive with any passengers under 20 years of age unless they are accompanied by a licensed driver over 25 years old. Plus they can't drive between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m.

 

So yes, it's much more difficult for teens today to just pick up and "go camping" than it used to be.

[Rick_in_CA]

I remember 50 years ago as well, and there is a point to be made for BSA today and what it was 50 years ago. There were plenty of times my buddies in the patrol and I would go camping without adults around. Some of the best outings we had. We had a few farmers in the area that were scouts or former scouts and had plenty of "woods" around to find a spot to camp. I wonder if they would even allow the boys to dig latrines anymore. We had to for ALL scout activities except summer camp. We never camped in established campgrounds. Not that they were full, because I remember a 4th of July weekend in a state park in Wisconsin where my folks had a 8mm film projector and the ranger just had a camera, but no way to see his home movies. We threw up a screen and put on his home movies for him and his family on Friday night and Saturday morning there was a pickup load of firewood dumped next to our site. By the way, the four families in our group were the only ones in the park that weekend. My godfather was one of them, he loved to build 8' council bonfires! The ranger came back with family on Saturday and we all had sodas and popcorn and watched the movies again but this time around a huge bonfire.

 

Stuff like that remains in the realm of memories because one isn't going to find many pulling that off today. I do know, however, remote areas where one can hike back in so far that no one can find you and you can sill primitive camp within 20 miles of my house. Just gotta look around and ask a few of the guys "sneaking out in the woods" to camp.

 

I haven' primitive camped since... well last summer with the Mrs. 2 day kayak paddle with overnight along the shore.

 

Stosh

moved

[Stosh]

I remember 50 years ago as well, and there is a point to be made for BSA today and what it was 50 years ago. There were plenty of times my buddies in the patrol and I would go camping without adults around. Some of the best outings we had. We had a few farmers in the area that were scouts or former scouts and had plenty of "woods" around to find a spot to camp. I wonder if they would even allow the boys to dig latrines anymore. We had to for ALL scout activities except summer camp. We never camped in established campgrounds. Not that they were full, because I remember a 4th of July weekend in a state park in Wisconsin where my folks had a 8mm film projector and the ranger just had a camera, but no way to see his home movies. We threw up a screen and put on his home movies for him and his family on Friday night and Saturday morning there was a pickup load of firewood dumped next to our site. By the way, the four families in our group were the only ones in the park that weekend. My godfather was one of them, he loved to build 8' council bonfires! The ranger came back with family on Saturday and we all had sodas and popcorn and watched the movies again but this time around a huge bonfire.

 

Stuff like that remains in the realm of memories because one isn't going to find many pulling that off today. I do know, however, remote areas where one can hike back in so far that no one can find you and you can sill primitive camp within 20 miles of my house. Just gotta look around and ask a few of the guys "sneaking out in the woods" to camp.

 

I haven' primitive camped since... well last summer with the Mrs. 2 day kayak paddle with overnight along the shore.

 

Stosh

I know that, but I really don't think it's much different today than it is today. It might take a bit more planning to find campsites, but wilderness camping is still in full swing in our area. As a matter of fact much of the sandbar camping in the area is getting pretty much filled up, just like the parks. We have national wildlife refuges in the area that still can find nice sites and it's all free. With a map/compass one can bury themselves deep into the woods and with modern equipment, like back pack stoves or small wood fires, no one even knows you're there.

 

My last outing, last fall, I was on a backwater river and had plenty of space on the sandbar to accommodate a full patrol easily.

 

With satellite images available, one can find a clearing in just about any woods to camp the night. If national forest/preserves, no need to hunt up permission, on private land, there's a lot of rural people out there that still support scouting.

 

My first Boy Scout activity was to hike 5 miles out of town to some farmer's woods, make a meal and hike back. I'm not seeing that as being impossible today.

 

Maybe if I had a troop situated in downtown NY I might have to drive out of town to start, but I'm sure there are those in the more rural areas that would have some woods available to scouts. Check with the councils/districts in the target area you are thinking about.

 

Stosh

[qwazse]

What a fantastically funny thread......Choked on my coffee.....OH MY.

 

 

This is how we get the no fire building, can't tie a knot, do first aid or find their way out of a paper bag eagles.

 

Soooooooo, Who is his merit badge councilor?????? what does he or she have to say on the subject????

 

Oh that's right you did it as a troop. NOT the way it was intended.

MBC's can and should take into account different boys circumstances. There is plenty of ways to knock off a given requirement. The troop-method does undermine the ability for each boy to come up with his own style. And as we see here, put's the OP on the spot if he does things a little differently for one boy vs. the others.

 

But, even when it's not about MB's, boys can sometimes expect an SM to deliver them the lowest common denominator. ("You're making me do X while Johnny only had to do Y." or "Why do I have to do X? Nobody else does!") It's usually in the interest of the troop if the SM insists on that bit of flexibility.

 

So, the problem would come up anyway. This time it just happened to be about a required MB.

[Twocubdad]

But' date=' even when it's not about MB's, boys can sometimes expect an SM to deliver them the lowest common denominator. .[/quote']

 

From your lips (keyboard?) to God's ear. I wasted 30 minutes of my life last night being screamed at by a father wanting exactly this. Any time any Scout has squeaked by on one element of the program, he expects that to become the new standard. Whoever did the weakest Eagle project, whoever had the lowest level of activity, whoever did the worst job in a POR and still slid in under the wire, that's the standard he wants applied to his kid.

 

Of course, that way the standards are constantly lowered, never raised. Eventually there will be no standards at all.

 

Sounds like society in general.

[perdidochas]

But' date=' even when it's not about MB's, boys can sometimes expect an SM to deliver them the lowest common denominator. .[/quote']

 

From your lips (keyboard?) to God's ear. I wasted 30 minutes of my life last night being screamed at by a father wanting exactly this. Any time any Scout has squeaked by on one element of the program, he expects that to become the new standard. Whoever did the weakest Eagle project, whoever had the lowest level of activity, whoever did the worst job in a POR and still slid in under the wire, that's the standard he wants applied to his kid.

 

Of course, that way the standards are constantly lowered, never raised. Eventually there will be no standards at all.

 

Sounds like society in general.

Wow, That's incredible. I had seen some of the Eagle Projects done. I tried to (and succeeded) in getting my son to bite off a pretty ambitious project. I wanted him to have the most activity possible. I wanted him to do a good job on his POR.

[qwazse]

But' date=' even when it's not about MB's, boys can sometimes expect an SM to deliver them the lowest common denominator. .[/quote']

 

From your lips (keyboard?) to God's ear. I wasted 30 minutes of my life last night being screamed at by a father wanting exactly this. Any time any Scout has squeaked by on one element of the program, he expects that to become the new standard. Whoever did the weakest Eagle project, whoever had the lowest level of activity, whoever did the worst job in a POR and still slid in under the wire, that's the standard he wants applied to his kid.

 

Of course, that way the standards are constantly lowered, never raised. Eventually there will be no standards at all.

 

Sounds like society in general.

2C, you probably said something this, but my standard reply (especially to my own kids): "I know what the boy is capable of, and I am holding him to words 4 through 8 of that oath he makes at every meeting."

[Twocubdad]

But' date=' even when it's not about MB's, boys can sometimes expect an SM to deliver them the lowest common denominator. .[/quote']

 

From your lips (keyboard?) to God's ear. I wasted 30 minutes of my life last night being screamed at by a father wanting exactly this. Any time any Scout has squeaked by on one element of the program, he expects that to become the new standard. Whoever did the weakest Eagle project, whoever had the lowest level of activity, whoever did the worst job in a POR and still slid in under the wire, that's the standard he wants applied to his kid.

 

Of course, that way the standards are constantly lowered, never raised. Eventually there will be no standards at all.

 

Sounds like society in general.

Fair and consistent are the by-words. It would be neither if we hold anyone to a higher standard than the lowest minimum. I believe it was Emerson who said "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of a small mind."

[delway]

Hello, I'm a SM and Camping MBC for a relatively new troop. We worked on the camping I totally believe in the "nothing less and nothing more" policy, but I don't want to cut corners on a Eagle MB. I'm Inclined to approve his plan providing he gets his patrol to forgo their chuck box with dutch oven and plan and pack in trail meals and trail equipment since 7B & 8D requires him to pack in some of the patrol gear and his patrol agrees to eat a trail meal instead of car camp meal.

 

p.s. this is the same scout that insists on email interviews instead of face to face or telephone interviews because the requirements do not say you can't.

 

 

It seems that while you refuse to allow "nothing less", you are not opposed to adding something "more".

 

If you follow the requirements - as they are written - you will not be "cutting corners".

 

With ScoutNut 100% on this one.

 

In addition to his comments, what does the boy's patrol have to do with his MB? MBs are an individual pursuit. It's one thing if the Scout wants to ask his patrol to help him by foregoing the gear, it's another for you to dictate it.

 

The broader issue here is that MBs should not be interwoven into the troop program. You can, and I think should, keep MB opportunities in mind, but troop meetings and campouts are not merit badge school. Your dual roles, SM and MB Counselor, will recreate this sticky situation over and over again. Now that you've seen the potential mess early, leave it here. You be the SM, there are plenty of MB counselors.

The boys patrol is involved because 8D requires him to cook three meals for his patrol including a trail meal. We can't afford to cook duplicate meals and most of the patrol would prefer a dutch oven meal then a trail meal for a frontcountry / car camp out.

 

We are a small troop with a couple of dozen scouts. SM and ASMs double up as MB Counselors.