Individual Scout Accounts Part Trois

[boomerscout]

If this lawn service company can't do a better job than some kid with a mower, they need to find another line of endeavor

That we are selling popcorn means the work hours at Cousin Willie's are being reduced because we have cut into their sales

[King Ding Dong]

BD so with the exception of PackAlex and his most excellent kosher camp kitchen I don't know of many packs that have much in in the way of durable goods beyond a PWD track and a few jugs for hot chocolate. I guess there really isn't a need for them to sell popcorn then is there ?

[Pack18Alex]

Down in my Council, at least in the few districts I know people in, EVERY pack has a trailer (we were one of the last to get ours), some have 2 (one that's storage), a pack kitchen, Webelos Tents, etc.

 

But here, because the weather is good, all the non-LDS Packs camp 3+ times/year… one camps 6 times/year.

 

But we have good camping weather from October to April.

 

But very common for a pack to have 1-3 Stoves, 1-2 grills, a few other packs have ovens. We all have fire pits for camp fires. Our Webelos tent in Pack supplied tents, etc.

 

HOWEVER, this may be selection bias, I know the leaders from the other super-active packs, and I see the camping gear of the packs that camp at camporees. It's very possible that I only see 50% of the Packs and there are a bunch that don't own anything, I'd have to ask my DE.

[Pack18Alex]

I agree with BD though. When someone buys our fundraiser, they are supporting Scouting in general, and POSSIBLY our pack in particular (when we fundraise in our neighborhood). So the money for Council is fine, the money that goes to our Unit is NOT intended to go to my son, we're not panhandling, it's to run the neighborhood/community scouting program.

 

Now, if you WANT Scouters to go to Woodbadge, than the Unit should pay between 10% and 100% of the cost to encourage them to go. If you want boys to go to Philmont, than the Unit should pay some of the costs to go. I don't overly object to letting a boy "earn his way" via fundraising, but certainly not a 1:1 relationship.

 

I see units putting 80% in the ISA, 20% in the Pack/Troop Budget, that in my mind is NOT what people think they are doing when they buy a Camp Card off the kid in front of the Super Market. Most of the money should be going to durable "stuff." The boys/families should be paying their own way… perhaps a general subsidy of certain events if you want more participation...

 

We're thinking of having the Pack pay registration fees for everyone attending the District/Council Camporees to bring the costs down and increase participation… but to make that work, your eligibility for that will be some level of fundraising as a family. That certainly runs into individual benefits, but we need some way to make it more viable to get families camping, and we need some way of encouraging the Scout Parents to take their boys fundraising so we have the funds to make that happen.

[Gone]

If you want boys to go to Philmont' date=' than the Unit should pay some of the costs to go. I don't overly object to letting a boy "earn his way" via fundraising, but certainly not a 1:1 relationship.[/quote']

 

I don't think the unit should pay a darn thing for a Scout to go to Philmont. That's a personal achievement in my book. Why should the unit pay for a scout, scouter or adult to go to Philmont? The only time I might accept that is if we needed a WFA-trained adult to fill out the unit crew or the unit leader taking his vacation time to go cover the adult leadership requirement. But the Scout? Nope. They earn the money or have mom and dad cut the check.

 

I see units putting 80% in the ISA, 20% in the Pack/Troop Budget, that in my mind is NOT what people think they are doing when they buy a Camp Card off the kid in front of the Super Market. Most of the money should be going to durable "stuff." The boys/families should be paying their own way… perhaps a general subsidy of certain events if you want more participation...

But you will pay 100% for an adult to go to WB? I don't think that's what folks had in mind when they gave money either. I agree, donars think they are helping the unit, perhaps even the individual.

 

 

.... but we need some way to make it more viable to get families camping, and we need some way of encouraging the Scout Parents to take their boys fundraising so we have the funds to make that happen.

 

That's the Holy Grail. Few Scouts these days are going to fund-raise if there is no benefit to them directly. Just look at band or sports fund-raisers. It is usually only a few people who sell all the stuff. My daugther got ticked off last fall when she sold the most candy bars for her school but all the kids in the band got the benefit of a movie even though 3/4 of them sold nothing. Sure the band got 100% of the money...no problem there...but the reward for selling was given to all the kids.

 

 

As far as this issue goes I ahve asked District and Council weigh in and I have gotten so very different answers from what I am seeing here. Essentially they are telling us to keep doing what we are doing (groups sales of a product with x amount going to the Scout). Both claim we are okay doing this...even gave it in writing.

[Pack18Alex]

If the unit leadership WANTS to get boys to philmint, you subsidize it out of troop funds. If the boys want to go, they figure out how to fundrAise to go. Philmont patrol car wash, etc. If a scouter wants to go to wood badge, sign his form. If the committee wants to send a scouter to wood badge, offer of troop funds and find a volunteer to go. Either way, troop funds should go to further troop goals. Our pack committee set a goal of more people camping, because scouts that camp retain, scouts that don't camp are hit or miss. As a result, we budget to spend pack funds on campouts, which lowers te per person cost. That's not an individual benefit, it's a decision to try to get more scouts camping. I think you can do things carefully to get scouts in and actively working. Focus on unit goals and how to get there.

[Gone]

If the unit leadership WANTS to get boys to philmint' date=' you subsidize it out of troop funds.[/quote']

 

Not very boy-led.

[qwazse]

As far as this issue goes I ahve asked District and Council weigh in and I have gotten so very different answers from what I am seeing here. Essentially they are telling us to keep doing what we are doing (groups sales of a product with x amount going to the Scout). Both claim we are okay doing this...even gave it in writing.

It's like my RT commish has an evil twin. Starting to think that the national policy is an attempt to shield the organization from liability on the slim chance that someone would want to use the IRS as a bludgeon -- not out of any real sense of ethics or impending investigation of every charter org across the nation.

[Stosh]

It's like my RT commish has an evil twin. Starting to think that the national policy is an attempt to shield the organization from liability on the slim chance that someone would want to use the IRS as a bludgeon -- not out of any real sense of ethics or impending investigation of every charter org across the nation.

 

Little Johnny wants to go to Philmont, Mom and Dad toss $1000 into the troop funds designated for Little Johnny's ISA. They take a nice tax deduction on the transaction. Now if they can get hundreds of popcorn buyers to do the same thing, that's even better!

 

There are so many questionable ethics issues here it's ridiculous.

 

 

 

 

 

[Gone]

It's like my RT commish has an evil twin. Starting to think that the national policy is an attempt to shield the organization from liability on the slim chance that someone would want to use the IRS as a bludgeon -- not out of any real sense of ethics or impending investigation of every charter org across the nation.

Love the evil twin comment. We kicked the issue up the chain to have them on record. We are a small troop and cannot afford a tax lawyer to give us advice. If council and district tell us to keep doing what we are doing after having asked for official clarification from them. If the IRS want to come after our measly budget and Tommy's $34 dollars they are welcome to it. One would think they could go after the many IRS employees who owe taxes but are getting raises despite having violated tax law.

[Stosh]

The issue isn't "getting away with it" because the amount is so small, it's the message we are sending to the boys.

 

My troop, with parent and committee agreement is no ISA's unless it's a holding account of the scout's own money he puts into it. Just like is done by the council office for troops.

 

Stosh

[Gone]

The issue isn't "getting away with it" because the amount is so small, it's the message we are sending to the boys.

 

My troop, with parent and committee agreement is no ISA's unless it's a holding account of the scout's own money he puts into it. Just like is done by the council office for troops.

I get you. But if Council and District both say our fund-raising does not meet the personal benefit litmus test, who am I to argue? We asked for an official position and got one. We even requested they contact National to confirm. It is not like we are talking thousands of dollars here. The response was "you're good, keep doing it".

 

What would be really worthwhile is if National stood up and took a position on this and gave guidance. They seem to be able to do that on other controversial issues, why can't they simply hire a tax lawyer to develop a position paper to aid their volunteers?

 

[qwazse]

... $1000 into the troop funds designated for Little Johnny's ISA. They take a nice tax deduction on the transaction. ...

 

If anybody out there in internet land is doing such a thing, I'm with Stosh on this one. Johnny might be doing the troop a world of good going to Jambo or Philmont, but Mom and Dad don't get a deduction on it. Gimme back my tax $$ with interest!

 

Folks who would like to pull those kind of stunts are a good reason to steer your unit clear of ISAs; however, I'm not gonna wag a finger at folks who aren't trying to use this as a tax shelter ...

 

The folks who spoke at RT said scale is the issue. The organizations flagged by the IRS were fundraising to such a degree and in such large amounts -- the entire portion of which being an individual benefit and employing parents more than youth to garner it -- that it was deemed taxable income of the parents.

 

A boy who earns a grand a year for camp, gear, and to eventually go on an HA in a few years isn't going to be taxed anyway (his work, his income, not his parents) -- probably not even required to file. So socking it in an ISA is not drawing the ethical dilemma that folks say it would be.

[Pack18Alex]

 

Not very boy-led.

 

Funds are not inherently boy led. Funds are the property of the Charter Organization entrusted to the Scout Unit. The Funds are supposed to be allocated based upon the designees of the Charter Org, which is the Unit Committee. The Scouts set the program up, but the Unit Committee is ultimately responsible for the funds, making sure to fulfill the values and expectations of the Charter Org.

 

Now, if the CO is a "Friends of" organization, and the "Friends of" CO wants the boys to have control over the funds, that's a different matter. But for the 70% that are operating under a religious institution, fulfilling the goals of the CO via the Unit Committee is paramount.

[Stosh]

We are putting $XX.XX amount of money in YOUR ISA because you sold X amount of popcorn. The verbiage implies that money is the scouts', when in fact it belongs to the CO. Right there I see a problem with "A Scout is Trustworthy" on the part of the adults.

 

On the other hand, if HE put some money in his "account" with the troop. It is and always will be his money. If a troop puts money in the account at the council office so that people can purchase awards, etc. when that troop folds, the money is returned to the CO, it is and always was their money.

 

Ever see a council giving money directly to any unit? No, but ALL units receive benefit from any council program.

 

Stosh