duckfoot Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I frankly find the idea that these and other topics are disappearing by accident highly suspect. I'm not typing my full response a third time for Smoking Man to delete again. So, in 5 words: The problem is selfish adults. Archive this forum and install SMF. It's free, it works, maintenance is done by a development team. I wish Schiff better luck than I had posting this topic... The problem is always the adults....and the Smoking Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomerscout Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I think your backwards on that schiff. you will see more council contingents and fewer troop ones. many troops raise funds as a group for such a trip. The problem is they will no longer be able to do it. Council contingents will grow because those will means will need to band together to go. Bottom line here. I think it will kill troop or pack level fundraising. The current crop of parents are not selfless and when I mentioned this they all said they were done fundraising. One mom who happens to be CM said "I am not fundraising so Johnny scout who didn't sell any popcorn can go to camp or enjoy scouting free". As popcorn Kernel nothing would make me happier. I devote 2 months most of my living room to raising money for council. Pay as ya go. I am good with that. Nothing wrong with troop fund-raising to fund HA. Funds just have to be applied equally to each Scout that is qualified to go, although in these days and times, I suppose each and every Scout could justify a campership. These rules apply to unit fundraising, which means sub-units such as patrols and individuals have slightly different rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_in_CA Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Apparently there are others having issues with threads disappearing with vBulletin: http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forum/vbulletin-4/vbulletin-4-questions-problems-and-troubleshooting/408283-thread-disappeared-without-a-trace I agree, it's time to dump vBulletin and replace it with something that works. I'm sure there are tools to migrate the existing content over to a new system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 One mom who happens to be CM said "I am not fundraising so Johnny scout who didn't sell any popcorn can go to camp or enjoy scouting free". Now there's a lesson in parental support for team development and leadership. Such selfishness has no place in Scouting. Stosh She really pisses me off too. Then she says boy scouting is too expensive. Compared to what???? Not your boys 3 months of football at $250 or their band participation. or..... Campouts cost $15 bucks because that is what the food cost. $50 for dues because we need propane, tents and break stuff occasionally. Or the Before I give you a penny in dues I demand to see your budget...... Ok you did not spend $100 of last years, so you need to deduct that from this year..... Yes maam that is true, but we are saving to buy more tents...... So your spending my sons money to buy tents. yes we are Well does he get to take it with him when he is finished. No maam he does not. He is currently using tents that the boys before him purchased. So think of it as his legacy. Well I am not sure I am comfortable with that. Sorry to hear that, but he pays the dues or he can enjoy his scouting elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scouter99 Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I frankly find the idea that these and other topics are disappearing by accident highly suspect. I'm not typing my full response a third time for Smoking Man to delete again. So, in 5 words: The problem is selfish adults. Archive this forum and install SMF. It's free, it works, maintenance is done by a development team. SMF is a free, open source forum software, it stands for Simple Machines Forum. http://www.simplemachines.org/ It works out of box, the development community updates it and release custom add-ons that install with the click of a button. I've been using it for 6 years and I've never had one thread disappear, the messaging system has never crapped out, etc. etc. "Archive" means close this forum, change its address and link to it from the new forum. Invision Pro Boards is also a good for-profit forum system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 Well maybe third time was the charm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckfoot Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Well maybe third time was the charm?Yay! Your post survived the night!! Maybe mine succumbed to the extreme cold... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 One mom who happens to be CM said "I am not fundraising so Johnny scout who didn't sell any popcorn can go to camp or enjoy scouting free". Now there's a lesson in parental support for team development and leadership. Such selfishness has no place in Scouting. Stosh I wonder how many people get the idea that individual scout accounts are THEIR money? If I were to be wanting to go to Philmont, for example, I would think the proper focus on the fundraising would be MY responsibility, not a group effort that I help out to get money for me personally. I would still have my bank account and evaluate how an increase in income would be necessary to make sure I got the cost covered. I wonder how much ISA's basically negate any positive influence that the Personal Finance MB is trying to instill. As far as group fundraising is concerned, I'm a bit old-fashioned on that point. A group fundraiser and my participation in it emphasizes my servant leadership to take care of my buddies in the troop who are struggling to cover the costs of the trip. If I need money, I shovel walks and mow lawns. If the troop needs money, I put on an apron and serve at the chili dinner. Just because BSA says one cannot do a "service project" for any BSA entity, doesn't mean I buy into the program on that point. I serve so that others benefit both within and outside the troop. Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scouter99 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Apparently there are others having issues with threads disappearing with vBulletin: http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forum/vbulletin-4/vbulletin-4-questions-problems-and-troubleshooting/408283-thread-disappeared-without-a-trace I agree, it's time to dump vBulletin and replace it with something that works. I'm sure there are tools to migrate the existing content over to a new system. You can carry databases over, but it can be unpredictable as to how it will go. For example, VB is the only forum I've seen with this comments feature, so how would another forum import them? Delete them altogether, or read them as replies? I don't think any software could be reasonably expected to receive a database as large as this one, either. That's why I say just keep this as a read-only archive and start fresh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dedkad Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I frankly find the idea that these and other topics are disappearing by accident highly suspect. I'm not typing my full response a third time for Smoking Man to delete again. So, in 5 words: The problem is selfish adults. Archive this forum and install SMF. It's free, it works, maintenance is done by a development team. Honestly, there are many more controversial topics that are discussed on this forum. I find it hard to believe that this one would be targeted for removal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSScout Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 So the choices are: 1) Scouts (and parents?) do something so unit raises money (sells widgets, washes cars, spreads mulch, whatever). Money goes in unit treasury, and Committee decides how to spend it (charter expenses, room rental, new tents, travel expenses for trips, sign out front, badges and books and neckers, etc.). or 2) Scouts (and parents?) do something so unit raises money. Committee decides how money is spent AND who to spend it on (camperships? Backpack for deserving Scout? ) and the kicker is that some Scouts work better/harder and earn/sell more stuff than others, so why should that Scout get more goodies than my Scout? I know a Cub that sold $25,000. gross popcorn two years ago. His Council propered, his Pack prospered (they bought a new PWD track among other things), and he went to summer camp essentially free. I know of no one who claimed they were less benefitted by his efforts (the kid did easily 90% of the selling hisself, contacted many companies and sold internet, long story. ) . The Packs' "scout accounts are held in trust to pay for the Scout's dues, summercamp fees, and do not go to "private" use (ipods, boots, uniforms or other use) and it is well understood that the left overs do not go with the Scout when he leaves the Pack. I know one Scout who saved up his "Scout account" and bought the troop a new trailer with it. The unit benefits, the Scout who did the work benefits (because of his work for the unit). The Scout that did not do as much to help the fundraising must make up for that lack by paying his dues directly. If the Comittee judges that that Scout needs help, then they are within their rights (I think) to spend the general funds to help that Scout. Many I have spoken with agree that this is superior to awarding trinkets for "high numbers". I fully understand the IRS and BSA wanting to define things such that folks don't make a living by falsely letting others think that a non-profit entity is making the money when it is in reality going in a private pocket. But if the Scout unit defines and limits the Scout account correctly I think the Scouts that work for the Unit will benefit as well as the Scouts that can't or won't. It must go to a Scout activity and benefit the Scout, not the private person. I even have known some Scouts who use their Scout Accounts as a trust savings account to save up for summer camp and HA trips. Example: When the Troop goes to Philmont, it is not the individual Scouts that pay, it is the Troop that pays for the trip. All the Scouts pay to the Troop. They pay either by working extra at the fundraising (?Scout account?), or with daddy's check book. When a Scout goes to Jamboree, it is not the Troop paying for that, that must be the Scout paying individually , that cannot come from the Scout account, which stays with the Troop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dedkad Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 When I did the Pack budget, I put subsidies in the events out of the Pack Budget. Our fundraising goes towards capital needs, and $150-$200 per event, so essentially we undercharge for food/registration and eat it from the Pack Budget. The Pack Budget comes 50%-50% from dues and fundraising (up from 100% dues two years ago). One of the leaders asked me about this, didn't understand why we were subsidizing the campouts from the fundraising. I told him that the people working the fundraisers, serving as leaders, and attending the campouts is largely the same people. The boys that go camping are gung-ho for the program. The boys that show up for a weekly meeting are having fun, but it's not a core focus of their week. When I keep the costs down, we have better attendance. More attendance means more Scouts retain. Are there families that camp and don't fundraise... I guess, one or two. Are there families that fundraise and don't camp? Yeah, one or two. But in general, it's the same group. We have some families that can't pay dues, we ask that they participate in fundraisers and we'll take care of them via campership. We don't use Scout Accounts, we tried, it was a tracking nightmare and didn't seem to serve much purpose. But I have a weird demographic. 80% of my kids are upper-middle class, a good chunk are in private religious schooling. Our food costs have to be managed VERY carefully (kosher food gets expensive REAL fast if you don't economize). It's easier to carry the families that can't pay than to do complicated Scout Accounts. Also, the boys seem gung ho for prizes. They aren't gung ho to save their parents $50 on dues or summer camp. I like this idea. When reading the BSA rules, it looks like there is nothing preventing you from holding a specific fundraiser to reduce camp registration fees. Those boys who are going to camp participate, the ones who aren't going can choose to participate to help their fellow scouts or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutergipper Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 One mom who happens to be CM said "I am not fundraising so Johnny scout who didn't sell any popcorn can go to camp or enjoy scouting free". Now there's a lesson in parental support for team development and leadership. Such selfishness has no place in Scouting. Stosh Anyone who criticizes this mom's perspective would do well to study how well the philosophy of "from each according to his ability to each according to his need" has worked in the real world. Three years ago I instituted a shift away from a plan where the handful of willing Scouts raised all the money while the lazy majority waited for their goodies to be delivered because the willing Scouts were quitting over the issue. Unless you're going to provide some consequences for those who won't either pay up or fundraise, they will sponge off you as long as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 With the individual incentive removed, will units set stricter rules for member fundraiser participation, make do with a projected decrease in funds raised, use pay as you go, allow families to "opt-out" of fundraising? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuctTape Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 The idea that scouts will participate or be motivated solely by personal gain is the antithesis of Scouting. If they aren't doing their best, as service to others with pure motives absent of personal gain then they aren't being true scouts, and we are failing them by not providing the opportunity for a program to instill that virtue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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