Is there a GOOD reason to require a new application when changing troops/crews?

[Basementdweller]

My son is into his 3rd year as a cub scout

I stepped up half way through his Tiger year to help as an Assistant Den Leader

Have held ADL, ACM, CM and now going through yet another application to be CC for our troop.

Along the way, I filled out I think 4 additional applications to replace "lost" paperwork.

so in less than three years, I've filled out something like 8 membership applications..... all so I could volunteer.

I haven't moved.

I haven't changed phone numbers

I haven't changed email addresses.

Yes, it's a stupid system.

Depends on your council.

[Basementdweller]

My son is into his 3rd year as a cub scout

I stepped up half way through his Tiger year to help as an Assistant Den Leader

Have held ADL, ACM, CM and now going through yet another application to be CC for our troop.

Along the way, I filled out I think 4 additional applications to replace "lost" paperwork.

so in less than three years, I've filled out something like 8 membership applications..... all so I could volunteer.

I haven't moved.

I haven't changed phone numbers

I haven't changed email addresses.

Yes, it's a stupid system.

Depends on your council.

[Horizon]

Horizon your one messed up fellow....shakin my head.

 

If the fellow is going to all the trouble to start a new unit.

 

Membership applications are the least of his problem or worry. Take the 5 minutes and fill it out.

 

 

Remember all the ruckus a couple of years ago when they first started doing mandatory background checks and everyone, at least in my council, had to fill out new apps.

 

My point is if your to lazy to fill out the application again, then maybe your to lazy to be looking at starting a new unit.

BD - you are not understanding me. The BSA has a broken process, that is exposing my personal information, and is a waste of volunteer hours. There is absolutely no reason in this modern era to be handing out carbon triplicates each time a role changes within a unit, or a person moves from one unit to another. That requires yet another person to manually re-key data into the system.

 

I have a single BSA ID number. That number should have a record of all of my advancement records (from my younger days), my training (per my scouting.org), my addresses and references (updated annually) and my positions (checked against annual charters). Further, it should be periodically used to check for new criminal records or other challenges in the background check. Finally, they should decide to go ahead and start fingerprinting as well (I had to be printed to be a coach for club soccer, to be an instructor at the local university, and to get early access at the airport as well when flying).

 

Calling me lazy for pointing out a bad system? I can find better things to do with both my time, and the professionals and volunteers at the district who are dealing with all of these forms from the 1980s.

 

My point is that the BSA's antiquated systems is why we got caught with our Scout leaders pants down - and we should fix it. Why the heck would you be protecting such a system?

[DeanRx]

Welcome to the forum.

 

I think the better question is is there a GOOD reason to create a crew in the first place?

Unless they want to hunt, shoot pistols, go on horse treks, rock scramble, or fly airplanes, you can do the sorts of high adventure things associated with Venturing with older Boy Scouts.

Venturing is a separate program, if you don't plan to do anything except use it as an enticing label to do more challenging Boy Scout things, then I don't see any reason to create a crew.

 

As to the original question, if "because you're supposed to and you can't become a Venturer without applying to be one" isn't good enough, I suspect nothing will be. Next you'll be asking for a good reason to do the Venturing training.

The GOOD reason to create a crew is that one of the easiest ways to keep boys over the age of 14 interested is to have girls over the age of 14 in the program

[Scouter99]

Horizon your one messed up fellow....shakin my head.

 

If the fellow is going to all the trouble to start a new unit.

 

Membership applications are the least of his problem or worry. Take the 5 minutes and fill it out.

 

 

Remember all the ruckus a couple of years ago when they first started doing mandatory background checks and everyone, at least in my council, had to fill out new apps.

 

My point is if your to lazy to fill out the application again, then maybe your to lazy to be looking at starting a new unit.

Actually, it is possible that you may have as many BSA IDs as you have interactions with the office. If, for example, you donate money and you're entered apart from your existing ID, a new ID is generated. The person who reconciles those errors picks which ID to keep when merging the records--if they're ever reconciled.

 

You say there's no reason to waste time every time a person's role changes, but you're arguing something that doesn't happen. A person's role within a unit can be changed with a mouse click at recharter.

 

Your complaint about your info's security doesn't make any sense. It's more secure on a piece of paper in a filing cabinet than in a database.

 

You're asking BSA to keep a database of every person--youth and adult--that ever signs an application forever. In 67 years, my unit alone has registered at least 700 youth (probably more like 800 since scouts who join and drop between recharters don't appear on the rosters), I haven't counted the adults. The idea that BSA should keep the personal, advancement, awards, etc. records of all these people sounds convenient to you because you're so busy that you can't fill out an application once every 4 years, but it is, in the wide view, ridiculous.

 

I don't think you have any point about our pants. The highest profile scandals occurred before the era of state or national databases (which is why BSA created its own, ahead of the curve, not behind), and most had no criminal records, anyway, again because in that era charges weren't often filed. You want the names run periodically, but the idea that a person could get arrested and convicted between BSA checks without getting removed in the first place is silly. The same effect is achieved by requiring a person to fill out an application, anyway.

[Basementdweller]

Horizon your one messed up fellow....shakin my head.

 

If the fellow is going to all the trouble to start a new unit.

 

Membership applications are the least of his problem or worry. Take the 5 minutes and fill it out.

 

 

Remember all the ruckus a couple of years ago when they first started doing mandatory background checks and everyone, at least in my council, had to fill out new apps.

 

My point is if your to lazy to fill out the application again, then maybe your to lazy to be looking at starting a new unit.

Your not hearing me either.

 

I get what your saying.....Creating or transfering to a different unit should be a drag and drop kinda thing on the computer.

 

But ya know what, DE's and council folks aren't that honest. Guess how long it would be before legions of ghost units would exist. So explain to me your vision of Johny scout transfering from troop 1 to troop 2. How is the admin taken care of?

 

Currently They have a hard copy with signature showing the transfer or new member.

 

We have been told that everytime you submit a new application that a new background check is performed.

 

Is the system perfect, no. But I would rather have more background checks than less. are they actually doing them, I have no clue.

[Horizon]

You guys are cracking me up, and are reflective of why the BSA is so far behind. Scouter99 seems to think that 700 records is a big deal. I had 700 individual records added to a database at work this morning, holding more information on each person than the BSA has on me.

 

Scout99 - our pants were down partially because we did NOT have a single, unified database. It was in paper files in HQ, and it was not easily cross-checked. The BSA's own system has out of data information on me - I know this because when we got the Crew going I had to correct information in the training database that was wrong. They had never required me to update my information from 10 years ago. That is a failure in the system.

 

I have walked into our Council offices and seen a stack of forms with social security numbers sitting around on a desk. That is not secure - it is the opposite.

 

Having multiple IDs for me in the system is failure.. Anyone who does any type of HR, Marketing, Sales, Customer Service software knows that you should be able to pull the complete picture of an individual from within one system.

 

Finally, AYSO has figured this out. It is not that hard to update our systems to match current technology. I am not asking for something futuristic - I am asking for something that reflects currently available technology. This would help units and the BSA.

 

But we can stick to the carbon triplicates.

 

This is not because of the 15 minutes to fill out the form (not 5 - I check with each of my references before listing them to make sure that they are OK with being a reference, I check the dates on other positions I have held and update it just in case someone might be doing their job). My complaint is that this is a bad, broken system that does not follow best practices in security, and in youth protection.

 

We can do better. Sorry that the rest of you think that this is good enough.

[Scouter99]

You guys are cracking me up, and are reflective of why the BSA is so far behind. Scouter99 seems to think that 700 records is a big deal. I had 700 individual records added to a database at work this morning, holding more information on each person than the BSA has on me.

 

Scout99 - our pants were down partially because we did NOT have a single, unified database. It was in paper files in HQ, and it was not easily cross-checked. The BSA's own system has out of data information on me - I know this because when we got the Crew going I had to correct information in the training database that was wrong. They had never required me to update my information from 10 years ago. That is a failure in the system.

 

I have walked into our Council offices and seen a stack of forms with social security numbers sitting around on a desk. That is not secure - it is the opposite.

 

Having multiple IDs for me in the system is failure.. Anyone who does any type of HR, Marketing, Sales, Customer Service software knows that you should be able to pull the complete picture of an individual from within one system.

 

Finally, AYSO has figured this out. It is not that hard to update our systems to match current technology. I am not asking for something futuristic - I am asking for something that reflects currently available technology. This would help units and the BSA.

 

But we can stick to the carbon triplicates.

 

This is not because of the 15 minutes to fill out the form (not 5 - I check with each of my references before listing them to make sure that they are OK with being a reference, I check the dates on other positions I have held and update it just in case someone might be doing their job). My complaint is that this is a bad, broken system that does not follow best practices in security, and in youth protection.

 

We can do better. Sorry that the rest of you think that this is good enough.

I didn't say 700 records is a problem. You don't want the BSA to hold 700 records, you want them to hold a record on every person that ever joins. Let's start today: That's 3,000,000 records. This year my council added 3,000 youth, let's be generous and say every council adds 1000, that's another million every year. How many adults register for a year never to be heard from again? There's a million more. Every Tiger has to have an adult partner.

 

Who is entering this data? Who is updating it if indignant volunteers don't have 5 minutes to fill out a sheet of paper?

 

How long will the record be there? 20 years? But then you don't get your youth records like you want. 50? 100?

 

What system will they be kept on? A custom system? A custom system to be maintained across a century? A proprietary system? A proprietary system that will be supported in 20, 50, 80, or 100 years?

 

You want it to be electronic and thus presumably more secure than a stack of papers on a desk. Secure like Target? or secure like Nieman Marcus? or secure like the South Carolina Dept of Taxation? or secure like our debit cards? or secure like Apple?

 

You want it to check backgrounds periodically. So, you want BSA to buy or create a system that interfaces with 50 state criminal agencies, 50 state social services agencies (many hold separate databases for child abuse/neglect which do not overlap with criminal BG checks), federal agencies, and the territories. You want this impossible effort in order to accomplish that which is already accomplished by the paper form.

 

You want all this because you cannot believe that when you join another unit you have to apply to it.

 

Like BD, I am not saying that the system we have is the best in the world, but your complaints are over the top and your "solution" addresses personal problems.

 

As for your personal outdated info, the failure in the system is that when you moved, you didn't do your due diligence and call the council to update yourself, and/or that your unit did not do its due diligence and update you at recharter. Creating a vast national database will not fix that problem.

[codger]

This question came up in my (now disbanded) council last fall - we had approximately 20 boys and 4 adults transfer from their old troop to ours when the old troop was disbanded by their CO (their church).

 

I wanted to have council do one form with the roster of buys transferring, but we were required to get all new applications. Royal pain in the butt. No good reason to do the individual apps there, when we could have had our CC and COR sign a simple list of transferees. I'm with the original poster on this one.

[Horizon]

You guys are cracking me up, and are reflective of why the BSA is so far behind. Scouter99 seems to think that 700 records is a big deal. I had 700 individual records added to a database at work this morning, holding more information on each person than the BSA has on me.

 

Scout99 - our pants were down partially because we did NOT have a single, unified database. It was in paper files in HQ, and it was not easily cross-checked. The BSA's own system has out of data information on me - I know this because when we got the Crew going I had to correct information in the training database that was wrong. They had never required me to update my information from 10 years ago. That is a failure in the system.

 

I have walked into our Council offices and seen a stack of forms with social security numbers sitting around on a desk. That is not secure - it is the opposite.

 

Having multiple IDs for me in the system is failure.. Anyone who does any type of HR, Marketing, Sales, Customer Service software knows that you should be able to pull the complete picture of an individual from within one system.

 

Finally, AYSO has figured this out. It is not that hard to update our systems to match current technology. I am not asking for something futuristic - I am asking for something that reflects currently available technology. This would help units and the BSA.

 

But we can stick to the carbon triplicates.

 

This is not because of the 15 minutes to fill out the form (not 5 - I check with each of my references before listing them to make sure that they are OK with being a reference, I check the dates on other positions I have held and update it just in case someone might be doing their job). My complaint is that this is a bad, broken system that does not follow best practices in security, and in youth protection.

 

We can do better. Sorry that the rest of you think that this is good enough.

I want to fix a broken system.

 

We already have a database of youth registration, with unique BSA identifiers

We already have a database of advancement, with unique BSA identifiers.

We already have a database of education, with unique BSA identifiers.

We already have a database of registered leaders, with unique BSA identifiers.

We already have a database of donations as well from FOS.

 

Background checks are done with a computer, based on information that comes FROM the paper form. That information is then entered INTO a computer for the check.

 

We simply need to improve this system to where it cross checks this information. This is not rocket science. Merging these systems is not that difficult. Your fear of millions of records cracks me up - I could pack all of that into my laptop and leave enough room for dutch oven recipes and pictures from Philmont.

 

ALL of this data already exists. It exists IN a computer. We don't need to create new data, we just need to improve the system that we are using. This is called user interface, and we can update the UI without needing to make much of a change to the underlying data model. Better yet, we could update the data model to a unified record, and then be able to make tweaks to the interface over time.

 

I want all this because the BSA can do better, not just because the annual rechartering, etc process is a pain at times. Your insults and attacks are un Scoutlike and uncalled for.

[Scouter99]

You guys are cracking me up, and are reflective of why the BSA is so far behind. Scouter99 seems to think that 700 records is a big deal. I had 700 individual records added to a database at work this morning, holding more information on each person than the BSA has on me.

 

Scout99 - our pants were down partially because we did NOT have a single, unified database. It was in paper files in HQ, and it was not easily cross-checked. The BSA's own system has out of data information on me - I know this because when we got the Crew going I had to correct information in the training database that was wrong. They had never required me to update my information from 10 years ago. That is a failure in the system.

 

I have walked into our Council offices and seen a stack of forms with social security numbers sitting around on a desk. That is not secure - it is the opposite.

 

Having multiple IDs for me in the system is failure.. Anyone who does any type of HR, Marketing, Sales, Customer Service software knows that you should be able to pull the complete picture of an individual from within one system.

 

Finally, AYSO has figured this out. It is not that hard to update our systems to match current technology. I am not asking for something futuristic - I am asking for something that reflects currently available technology. This would help units and the BSA.

 

But we can stick to the carbon triplicates.

 

This is not because of the 15 minutes to fill out the form (not 5 - I check with each of my references before listing them to make sure that they are OK with being a reference, I check the dates on other positions I have held and update it just in case someone might be doing their job). My complaint is that this is a bad, broken system that does not follow best practices in security, and in youth protection.

 

We can do better. Sorry that the rest of you think that this is good enough.

My attacks? You mean where you moved and blame the council for not knowing because you never told them, but I blame you because the council isn't clairvoyant? There is plenty of room for improvement in BSA IT, none of it will fix that you problem.

[qwazse]

This question came up in my (now disbanded) council last fall - we had approximately 20 boys and 4 adults transfer from their old troop to ours when the old troop was disbanded by their CO (their church).

 

I wanted to have council do one form with the roster of buys transferring, but we were required to get all new applications. Royal pain in the butt. No good reason to do the individual apps there, when we could have had our CC and COR sign a simple list of transferees. I'm with the original poster on this one.

One thing we should be sensitive to: in the past councils have been known to retain unit charters on the books an additional year (in hopes that they'd reorganize), or performed en-masse transfers without any confirmation that members of one unit even knew they had new numbers (among other things). This resulted in grossly inflated membership statistics. Less than 10 years ago I was lighting into a new DE for handing me a list of crews, 1/3 of whom for all intents and purposes existed on paper only.

 

I wish it weren't true, but having the CC or COR speak for those 24 members opens the gateway for corruption. There would be no way to tell your DE (who seems to have been adequate in helping the boys actually transfer units) from a slacker DE's performance (who would gladly give those registrations new unit #s without garnering approval from the boys and their parents).