Any news on gay scouts denied Eagle ranks being reinstated?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I don't have a problem with a scout's sexual orientation, but I would have a problem with misleading everyone as to what their religious beliefs are when they are in direct conflict with the Scout Law and Oath. Doesn't reflect well on one's honor to pledge anything.

 

Stosh

"Agnostic is a knowledge based understanding of God"

 

No, that's gnostic, from "gnosis". Agnostic is the opposite due to the a- prefix, meaning "not".

 

Huxley coined the word, and here's what he said it meant:

"Agnosticism is not a creed but a method, the essence of which lies in the vigorous application of a single principle. Positively, the principle may be expressed as in matters of intellect, follow your reason as far as it can take you without other considerations. And negatively, in matters of the intellect, do not pretend that matters are certain that are not demonstrated or demonstrable."

[qwazse]

Regarding Ryan Andresen I think I can clear some things up. Some of you will recall that I wrote posts when that whole thing blew up a year and a half ago. I met Ryan and his father in August 2012 when I reviewed and approved his project on behalf of the district. He completed his project and it was late in September when a former trooop committee member blew the whistle on Ryan which led to the national office removing Ryan from BSA altogether prior to Ryan's 18th birthday which fell in October of 2012. Subsequently a great many people, self included, suggested that Ryan should at least get his BOR even without the unit signatures on his eagle application. This was done and his eagle was approved at the council level and the paperwork forwarded to national, all within the 90 day window following his 18th birthday. This at least had the effect of putting the local council on the right side of fair treatment of Ryan regardless of the membership decision made at the national level.

 

As far as I know Ryan's beliefs regarding god were never an issue.

 

To me it was a simple matter of fairness. Ryan had done everything required of him in good faith and kicking him out days before his 18th birthday never made sense.

 

I think the current membership policy is wise and fair. It is all about the youth, not the attitudes of some adult, gay or straight.

Thanks for the details. All of the press releases made things a little fuzzy, and I'm sorry I brought up the religion issue because clearly it has allowed tangents that may not apply to scouts affected by this issue.

[packsaddle]

Jblake47, The scout has no obligation to allow you or anyone else to examine them on their religious beliefs and if you 'think' they have misled you, then it is possible that part, if not all, of the responsibility for that is yours. There is no place that I can find in BSA documents that state that there is a responsibility for any adult leader to judge or examine the religious beliefs of a boy. Their beliefs are theirs, personally, and not the business of anyone else. If they've signed their name, the best thing for the rest of us to do is to butt out of their personal business.

[Stosh]

Jblake47, The scout has no obligation to allow you or anyone else to examine them on their religious beliefs and if you 'think' they have misled you, then it is possible that part, if not all, of the responsibility for that is yours. There is no place that I can find in BSA documents that state that there is a responsibility for any adult leader to judge or examine the religious beliefs of a boy. Their beliefs are theirs, personally, and not the business of anyone else. If they've signed their name, the best thing for the rest of us to do is to butt out of their personal business.

If they state they have no intention of following the 12th Law, how is that any different than the scout that says he has no intention of following any of the other ones either. Such "in your face" declarations such as this have no place in Scouting.

 

Stosh

[packsaddle]

Jblake47, The scout has no obligation to allow you or anyone else to examine them on their religious beliefs and if you 'think' they have misled you, then it is possible that part, if not all, of the responsibility for that is yours. There is no place that I can find in BSA documents that state that there is a responsibility for any adult leader to judge or examine the religious beliefs of a boy. Their beliefs are theirs, personally, and not the business of anyone else. If they've signed their name, the best thing for the rest of us to do is to butt out of their personal business.

That is the question YOU should answer. Do you kick a boy out of scouts because he states his doubts about 'thrifty'? I guess so, since such ""in your face" declarations such as this have no place in Scouting."

[Huzzar]

Jblake47, The scout has no obligation to allow you or anyone else to examine them on their religious beliefs and if you 'think' they have misled you, then it is possible that part, if not all, of the responsibility for that is yours. There is no place that I can find in BSA documents that state that there is a responsibility for any adult leader to judge or examine the religious beliefs of a boy. Their beliefs are theirs, personally, and not the business of anyone else. If they've signed their name, the best thing for the rest of us to do is to butt out of their personal business.

Now you're making stuff up, Packsaddle. It's perfectly acceptable to ask a Scout what Reverent means to him in a BoR. Provided he doesn't say "nothing, I'm an atheist" it's just another conversation point.

 

If he does say "I'm an atheist" and persists in sticking with that position despite the BoR members trying to get him to understand the BSA's position then the BoR has a pretty tough decision themselves. Deny rank and explain why or ignore the religious part themselves.

 

No...I'm not going to engage you in nit picky arguments about what/who a supreme being is.The BSA is quite upfront in saying atheism is a no. If a unit denies advancement based on that it's fine.

[packsaddle]

Jblake47, The scout has no obligation to allow you or anyone else to examine them on their religious beliefs and if you 'think' they have misled you, then it is possible that part, if not all, of the responsibility for that is yours. There is no place that I can find in BSA documents that state that there is a responsibility for any adult leader to judge or examine the religious beliefs of a boy. Their beliefs are theirs, personally, and not the business of anyone else. If they've signed their name, the best thing for the rest of us to do is to butt out of their personal business.

You are free to ask that question. And if the boy volunteers something about his beliefs or lack thereof, fine. But you cannot demand that he make any kind of such profession.

So in answer to your question, if he says he would rather not discuss his personal matters of faith, you're done.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Jblake47, The scout has no obligation to allow you or anyone else to examine them on their religious beliefs and if you 'think' they have misled you, then it is possible that part, if not all, of the responsibility for that is yours. There is no place that I can find in BSA documents that state that there is a responsibility for any adult leader to judge or examine the religious beliefs of a boy. Their beliefs are theirs, personally, and not the business of anyone else. If they've signed their name, the best thing for the rest of us to do is to butt out of their personal business.

"The BSA is quite upfront in saying atheism is a no."

 

Unfortunately, they are also quite upfront in saying agnosticism is a no:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisgeidner/boy-scouts-will-not-employ-atheists-agnostics-known-or-avowe

 

Yet plenty of believers of various religions will also identify as agnostic, because many people have a much better idea what "agnostic" means than the BSA. But that's what happens when you make up rules using words you don't understand.

[Pack18Alex]

Jblake47, The scout has no obligation to allow you or anyone else to examine them on their religious beliefs and if you 'think' they have misled you, then it is possible that part, if not all, of the responsibility for that is yours. There is no place that I can find in BSA documents that state that there is a responsibility for any adult leader to judge or examine the religious beliefs of a boy. Their beliefs are theirs, personally, and not the business of anyone else. If they've signed their name, the best thing for the rest of us to do is to butt out of their personal business.

On a BoR, I asked about Scout Law, in general, in their life, and I asked about Reverence specifically. I'm not looking for a particular answer, but if they are going to give a flip answer in the Troop's BoR, I'd rather flesh that out then than during an Eagle BoR.

[Huzzar]

Jblake47, The scout has no obligation to allow you or anyone else to examine them on their religious beliefs and if you 'think' they have misled you, then it is possible that part, if not all, of the responsibility for that is yours. There is no place that I can find in BSA documents that state that there is a responsibility for any adult leader to judge or examine the religious beliefs of a boy. Their beliefs are theirs, personally, and not the business of anyone else. If they've signed their name, the best thing for the rest of us to do is to butt out of their personal business.

Nobody is asking any Scout to make a profession. If a Scout tells a BoR to take a hike on any legitimate question it's okay for the Board to deny rank advancement. General questions about Reverence are legitimate.

[Rick_in_CA]

I don't have a problem with a scout's sexual orientation, but I would have a problem with misleading everyone as to what their religious beliefs are when they are in direct conflict with the Scout Law and Oath. Doesn't reflect well on one's honor to pledge anything.

 

Stosh

What agnostic means to you, is up to you. I just use the standard definition.

 

The standard definition? As Merlyn pointed out, the term “agnostic†was defined by Though Huxley in 1869 (though he didn’t invent the ideas that the term describes). It basically means that “God is unknowableâ€Â. That covers several forms of thought. One (as you pointed out) can be thought of as: “I don’t know if gods exist or not - I don’t know what I believeâ€Â. However, this is only one version of “agnosticismâ€Â. Another is someone who believes “the true nature of God (or the divine) is unknowable to usâ€Â, that too is a form of “agnosticismâ€Â, and there are multiple religions that fit that description.

 

So when the BSA says that we don’t allow agnostics because they don’t know what they believe, they don’t know what the term really means. So when a Hindu says to me “my branch of Hinduism is basically agnosticâ€Â*, he isn’t saying that he can’t make up his mind. And when the BSA says that man is unacceptable, it doesn’t understand what he is saying.

 

Nice to know that the discussion has now turned to attacking the person rather than discussing the topic.

 

I was not trying to attack you. If I came across that way, I apologize. It’s just that we have to be careful when we throw words like “atheist†and “agnostic†around. The words have pretty broad meanings (a lot of “standard†(i.e. colloquial) definitions are incorrect or incomplete), and someone may refer to themselves using those words, and it behooves us to try and understand what they are actually trying to say before we condemn them for it.

 

* this came up in a short conversation about faith with a Hindu man. I wish I had more time to explore the topic with him beyond the explanation of “because God is unknowableâ€Â.

[teginder81]

Ryan Andresen actually does not qualify for Eagle Scout. he does not meet the requirements and yes because he is gay. You have to live by the Scout oath and set a life example that you have done so to others as part of being a scout in general , but particularly to earn Eagle Scout. He took a pledge to " keep himself Physically strong, mnetally awake, and morally straight." He violates the the scout and religious definition the promise is based on to be morally straight. He is no longer completeing his pledge to the defined morally straight of the pledge and requirement so he is ineligable on that alone. If he is gay fine do as you want but your choices will have reprecussions and one is you failed your pledge and requirments as a scout. No bending we all have ways we live and things we honor and this is part of it so sorry but he can not be an eagle scout and if that angers him he might want to start his own organization that suites his beliefs and foundations.

[Torchwood]

Ryan Andresen actually does not qualify for Eagle Scout. he does not meet the requirements and yes because he is gay. You have to live by the Scout oath and set a life example that you have done so to others as part of being a scout in general , but particularly to earn Eagle Scout. He took a pledge to " keep himself Physically strong, mnetally awake, and morally straight." He violates the the scout and religious definition the promise is based on to be morally straight. He is no longer completeing his pledge to the defined morally straight of the pledge and requirement so he is ineligable on that alone. If he is gay fine do as you want but your choices will have reprecussions and one is you failed your pledge and requirments as a scout. No bending we all have ways we live and things we honor and this is part of it so sorry but he can not be an eagle scout and if that angers him he might want to start his own organization that suites his beliefs and foundations.

Morally straight and being "straight" are two completely different things. On page 23 of the Scout Handbook I have in my hands, it talks about respecting and defending the rights of all people. That is the core value that we should be focusing on. I don't care if someone is gay, straight or other, and I certainly don't care if you believe in Christ or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, as long as you treat others with kindness and respect. If you can't respect the rights of others to live their lives as they see fit, as long as their rights don't infringe on anyone else's rights to do the same, then what is really the problem? A Scout is KIND, after all.

[King Ding Dong]

Ryan Andresen actually does not qualify for Eagle Scout. he does not meet the requirements and yes because he is gay. You have to live by the Scout oath and set a life example that you have done so to others as part of being a scout in general , but particularly to earn Eagle Scout. He took a pledge to " keep himself Physically strong, mnetally awake, and morally straight." He violates the the scout and religious definition the promise is based on to be morally straight. He is no longer completeing his pledge to the defined morally straight of the pledge and requirement so he is ineligable on that alone. If he is gay fine do as you want but your choices will have reprecussions and one is you failed your pledge and requirments as a scout. No bending we all have ways we live and things we honor and this is part of it so sorry but he can not be an eagle scout and if that angers him he might want to start his own organization that suites his beliefs and foundations.

Ramen Torchwood. May his noodly appendage touch you.

[Rick_in_CA]

Ryan Andresen actually does not qualify for Eagle Scout. he does not meet the requirements and yes because he is gay. You have to live by the Scout oath and set a life example that you have done so to others as part of being a scout in general , but particularly to earn Eagle Scout. He took a pledge to " keep himself Physically strong, mnetally awake, and morally straight." He violates the the scout and religious definition the promise is based on to be morally straight. He is no longer completeing his pledge to the defined morally straight of the pledge and requirement so he is ineligable on that alone. If he is gay fine do as you want but your choices will have reprecussions and one is you failed your pledge and requirments as a scout. No bending we all have ways we live and things we honor and this is part of it so sorry but he can not be an eagle scout and if that angers him he might want to start his own organization that suites his beliefs and foundations.

"He violates the the scout and religious definition the promise is based on to be morally straight."

 

You do know that the BSA is NOT a conservative Christian only organization, but one that welcomes people of all faiths? That a part of "A Scout is Reverent" is showing respect for people with different faiths than yours (including those that do not consider being gay a sin)?

 

Perhaps if the Scout Law is so difficult for you to follow, you should consider a different organization than the BSA (perhaps Trail Life as they are Christian only)?