Any news on gay scouts denied Eagle ranks being reinstated?

[EmberMike]

If he did would he have to return that Money that Ellen gave him.

 

 

The only reason MR. Andersen made such a splash was he was from a Rich White home, he was also well spoken, and good looking. Makes great media. Had he been from a poor home and an awkward boy would it have been news probably not. But MOM drove the media bus.

 

There is a thread on here somewhere about it....too lazy or disinterested to look it up.

 

There are plenty of failures on this one. The SM and BOR for continuing to pass him on his BOR and scout spirit requirements. Sorry guys grow a back bone and say no if a lad tells you he is an atheist or, at the time, he is gay.

 

Mr. Andersen, because, he was taking an oath he did not believe in. That is really screwed up.

Regardless of how anyone feels about the core issue of gays in scouting, I think we can all agree that it's pretty messed up that he was allowed to finish all of the requirements before finally being denied at the end. As I understand it, he came out before he was done. So this SM watched him go through the rest of the process, the service project, etc., and then refused to sign off.

 

I agree with Basementdweller, the SM should have grown a back bone and stopped this earlier, if they were so opposed to him reaching Eagle. Not sure what they were thinking, maybe that he'd fail on his own or just quit or something.

[EmberMike]

With that said.......

 

I understand giving a lad latitude for self expression or exploration.

 

But at what point does the troop Atheist or Pagan become an issue and you need to have him removed or stop advancing them on the grounds of scout spirit.??????

 

Most scouters have experience with a boy that says he doesn't believe in god or the self proclaimed Pagan.

 

My experience has been most of the time it is for shock effect and to get a reaction.

What always perplexes me about the religion component is that the BSA actually makes it really easy to pass this requirement even if you don't believe in God. "God" in the BSA is a pretty loose term, and it encompasses all sorts of spiritual entities and belief systems, including some that don't recognize a particular god.

 

Sadly I don't think a lot of kids fully believe what they say when they renounce God or religion, or likewise there are plenty of leaders who will not explore such a statement to determine exactly what it is that a kid believes. There are a lot of options between believing in God and believing in nothing that still meet the BSA requirements. Over 38 different faiths are included in the religious awards, and I'm sure far more belief systems would at least qualify for the religious/spiritual requirements of membership and advancement.

[Horizon]

Pagan doesn't bother me (as a Scouter), because that is still faith. It might bother me as a Reformed Church Christian, but so should Islam and Judaism and Mormonism and Catholicism - since all of those are seen as deviating from the message of Christ if you listen to some of the scholars. Reverent says I should respect the faith of others - and I do.

 

A boy who questions at that age does not surprise me. Often they are ahead of the curve - many start questioning in college when they start interacting with people who do not fit the stereotypes that they were raised with. Add in a few college philosophy courses as part of the general education requirements (along with assigned reading of the Bible - which many have never actually read), and you get an 18-22 year old wondering if what they were raised with is the Truth.

 

I accept questioning boys, and I encourage them to question. I have yet to have boy tell me directly that he does not believe in any higher power. I have had many who tell me that they question some of the tenets of various faiths - and I tell them that a year doesn't go by without me having my own faith questioning moment.

[skeptic]

Pagan doesn't bother me (as a Scouter), because that is still faith. It might bother me as a Reformed Church Christian, but so should Islam and Judaism and Mormonism and Catholicism - since all of those are seen as deviating from the message of Christ if you listen to some of the scholars. Reverent says I should respect the faith of others - and I do.

 

A boy who questions at that age does not surprise me. Often they are ahead of the curve - many start questioning in college when they start interacting with people who do not fit the stereotypes that they were raised with. Add in a few college philosophy courses as part of the general education requirements (along with assigned reading of the Bible - which many have never actually read), and you get an 18-22 year old wondering if what they were raised with is the Truth.

 

I accept questioning boys, and I encourage them to question. I have yet to have boy tell me directly that he does not believe in any higher power. I have had many who tell me that they question some of the tenets of various faiths - and I tell them that a year doesn't go by without me having my own faith questioning moment.

Yep; I still have days when I simply wonder how or why? But, acknowledging that even the most gifted thinkers and philosophers use a very small percentage of possible brain power, I realize there may be a time I "do" get it; just not in this incarnation or whatever. Still, do consider Christianity as my base; though with my broad acceptance, I often am looked at askance by some and told by others I am not a Christian. Not their decision to make. Reverence is still important.

 

Too many leaders either do not understand their duty to actually counsel kids sometimes, especially in Spirit and such if the need arises. Or, they simply are afraid or lazy. JMPO.

[Rick_in_CA]

With that said.......

 

I understand giving a lad latitude for self expression or exploration.

 

But at what point does the troop Atheist or Pagan become an issue and you need to have him removed or stop advancing them on the grounds of scout spirit.??????

 

Most scouters have experience with a boy that says he doesn't believe in god or the self proclaimed Pagan.

 

My experience has been most of the time it is for shock effect and to get a reaction.

Part of the problem is that the BSA is contradictory about the religious requirement. On the one hand, there is the DRP which is written from a Judeo-Christian point of view (I understand that several of the faiths represented by those recognized religious awards when shown the complete text of the DRP are unable to agree to it - I don’t know how many). On the other we have the statement that the BSA is “absolutely non-sectarian†and that the BSA “does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion†and “does not require membership in a religious organization or association for enrollment in the movement...â€Â.

 

So the BSA doesn’t define “faith†(I can’t find the phrase “belief in a higher power†anywhere - anyone know what BSA publication introduced that?), that is up to the scout and his family. So I can easily see how a scout that is an agnostic or atheist can easily assume that he is doing his “duty to god†in his own way. And I believe if the BSA is really honest about “absolutely non-sectarianâ€Â, we should take him at his word. So I will never boot a scout for simply saying that he is an atheist. But I will boot a Baptist (or Hindu or atheist, etc.) that is unwilling to show respect for people of other faiths.

 

Unfortunately I have met many scouters that are unable to show respect for other faiths. I had one tell me to may face that my religion (I am Unitarian) wasn’t a real faith and I shouldn’t be allowed in scouting.

[Tampa Turtle]

I have over-heard the boys discuss this issue. I heard a agnostic/atheist say he would never admit it because he wants his Eagle. When I talk to the boys I always urge them to work their faith in everyday life and keeping searching. Leads to some good discussion which is the point.

[EmberMike]

I have over-heard the boys discuss this issue. I heard a agnostic/atheist say he would never admit it because he wants his Eagle. When I talk to the boys I always urge them to work their faith in everyday life and keeping searching. Leads to some good discussion which is the point.

I hate to nitpick but there is a difference between athiest and agnostic, so I doubt that kid is both. Technically, agnosticism can still still be interpreted as falling within the requirements of Scouting, at least by some definitions of it which can vary from person to person and what they believe. Some agnostics believe in a higher power, they just have doubts about the specifics of that power or that the organized religions have the story right.

 

This is where I think kids unintentionally run into trouble. They may think they're athiest if they don't believe in, for example, the biblical definition of God. But they may still believe in something, be it a higher power that is defined in another religion or something that they can't quite put their finger on. It could even be just a general sense of spirituality, a closeness with nature, or a belief in some general essence greater than ourselves. None of which defines them as being athiest.

 

But they'll go and tell their friends or fellow scouts that they don't believe in God and yet no one is sure of what they really mean when they say that. Often the scout himself doesn't know what he means.

 

Tough to deny anyone advancement or membership based on what could very often be just teenage confusion and questioning.

[Scouter99]

Why should they?

In the case of Ryan, if he's mature enough to go on national media and become a spokesperson for gay rights, then he's mature enough to know what "on my honor" means and that when he said that oath it meant nothing because he does not believe in God and he was ineligible to be a member.

If you're one of the people of the mindset that Eagles are a special class of moral giants, then Ryan is a liar.

If you're of the mindset that Eagles are just guys who met a list of requirements, then Ryan was not eligible to be in scouting to begin with.

It's a shame that he lied to himself and it's a shame that the adults around him lied to him, but he picked his moment to come out as an atheist homosexual and he has to live in the real world like the rest of us.

 

If there are younger boys who've left or been dismissed in the past because they were gay, and they want to continue with scouting, then they should find a unit and pick up where they left off. But, no, I see no reason to start backdating Eagle awards to homosexuals.

[EmberMike]

Why should they?

In the case of Ryan, if he's mature enough to go on national media and become a spokesperson for gay rights, then he's mature enough to know what "on my honor" means and that when he said that oath it meant nothing because he does not believe in God and he was ineligible to be a member.

If you're one of the people of the mindset that Eagles are a special class of moral giants, then Ryan is a liar.

If you're of the mindset that Eagles are just guys who met a list of requirements, then Ryan was not eligible to be in scouting to begin with.

It's a shame that he lied to himself and it's a shame that the adults around him lied to him, but he picked his moment to come out as an atheist homosexual and he has to live in the real world like the rest of us.

 

If there are younger boys who've left or been dismissed in the past because they were gay, and they want to continue with scouting, then they should find a unit and pick up where they left off. But, no, I see no reason to start backdating Eagle awards to homosexuals.

Ryan has said in the media that he believes in God. Where did you get the idea that he's doesn't?

 

And even if he did say that he didn't "believe in God", that's not grounds for dismissal from the BSA. There are a lot of accepted beliefs that qualify for scouting membership, some of which don't include the belief in God. The word "God" in the oath is used to represent spirituality and faith of many kinds.

[Scouter99]

Why should they?

In the case of Ryan, if he's mature enough to go on national media and become a spokesperson for gay rights, then he's mature enough to know what "on my honor" means and that when he said that oath it meant nothing because he does not believe in God and he was ineligible to be a member.

If you're one of the people of the mindset that Eagles are a special class of moral giants, then Ryan is a liar.

If you're of the mindset that Eagles are just guys who met a list of requirements, then Ryan was not eligible to be in scouting to begin with.

It's a shame that he lied to himself and it's a shame that the adults around him lied to him, but he picked his moment to come out as an atheist homosexual and he has to live in the real world like the rest of us.

 

If there are younger boys who've left or been dismissed in the past because they were gay, and they want to continue with scouting, then they should find a unit and pick up where they left off. But, no, I see no reason to start backdating Eagle awards to homosexuals.

The earliest reports (the only ones I read) said he was dismissed because he proactively said he did not believe he had a duty to God and that he is gay.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I have over-heard the boys discuss this issue. I heard a agnostic/atheist say he would never admit it because he wants his Eagle. When I talk to the boys I always urge them to work their faith in everyday life and keeping searching. Leads to some good discussion which is the point.

"I hate to nitpick but there is a difference between athiest and agnostic, so I doubt that kid is both."

 

Most atheists are both. Many believers are also theist and agnostic.

 

"They may think they're athiest if they don't believe in, for example, the biblical definition of God. But they may still believe in something, be it a higher power that is defined in another religion or something that they can't quite put their finger on. It could even be just a general sense of spirituality, a closeness with nature, or a belief in some general essence greater than ourselves. None of which defines them as being athiest. "

 

Most of what you've listed aren't incompatible with atheism, either.

 

"Tough to deny anyone advancement or membership based on what could very often be just teenage confusion and questioning."

 

The entire requirement is idiotic and ridiculously badly defined.

[Huzzar]

With that said.......

 

I understand giving a lad latitude for self expression or exploration.

 

But at what point does the troop Atheist or Pagan become an issue and you need to have him removed or stop advancing them on the grounds of scout spirit.??????

 

Most scouters have experience with a boy that says he doesn't believe in god or the self proclaimed Pagan.

 

My experience has been most of the time it is for shock effect and to get a reaction.

Perhaps your leader met the dude at the Unitarian booth at Jambo that was telling the yoots he was an atheist but liked being a Scouter so he joined the Unitarians because they don't care if you believe in anything.

[Huzzar]

I have over-heard the boys discuss this issue. I heard a agnostic/atheist say he would never admit it because he wants his Eagle. When I talk to the boys I always urge them to work their faith in everyday life and keeping searching. Leads to some good discussion which is the point.

"The entire requirement is idiotic and ridiculously badly defined."

 

I agree with this one. Quite frankly, with the change for sexuality for Scouts I can't see the point in excluding a tiny number of boys because they won't wordsmith their lack of faith to meet BSA's wishy-washy requirement.

[Basementdweller]

Why should they?

In the case of Ryan, if he's mature enough to go on national media and become a spokesperson for gay rights, then he's mature enough to know what "on my honor" means and that when he said that oath it meant nothing because he does not believe in God and he was ineligible to be a member.

If you're one of the people of the mindset that Eagles are a special class of moral giants, then Ryan is a liar.

If you're of the mindset that Eagles are just guys who met a list of requirements, then Ryan was not eligible to be in scouting to begin with.

It's a shame that he lied to himself and it's a shame that the adults around him lied to him, but he picked his moment to come out as an atheist homosexual and he has to live in the real world like the rest of us.

 

If there are younger boys who've left or been dismissed in the past because they were gay, and they want to continue with scouting, then they should find a unit and pick up where they left off. But, no, I see no reason to start backdating Eagle awards to homosexuals.

A fine post, a very fine post indeed.

 

A shame his adult leadership failed him. One of the articles said his SM knew he was gay and said it wouldn't be a problem.

 

I also read the reports as 99 did he said he did not believe in god.

[Rick_in_CA]

I have over-heard the boys discuss this issue. I heard a agnostic/atheist say he would never admit it because he wants his Eagle. When I talk to the boys I always urge them to work their faith in everyday life and keeping searching. Leads to some good discussion which is the point.

As someone from BSA national explained it to me, the problem with atheists is not the underlying beliefs, it the word "atheist". For to many people "atheist" means "evil", so it's the label that is the problem. If a scout or scouter labels himself as an atheist, he isn't eligible. If another scout or scouter has identical beliefs to the first, but doesn't label himself as an atheist, they are welcome.