Am I too lax, or is this guy too tightly wound.

[DeanRx]

No need to get upset or fight about rules and regs verbatim...

 

TW (tightwad) - "Its too cold outside for the scouts..." Me-"OK, do you have a substitue activity ready for them indoors? I'm all ears. The boys wanted to go outside. They'll come in if they are cold."

 

TW - "They need flashlights / supervision / etc..." Me-"Great, can you go stand outside and SUPERVISE the activity for me? Do you have any flashlights in your car you can loan out?"

 

TW - "G2SS says.... the rules state...." Me-"Hmmm, can you SHOW ME where this is? If I see it in writing, we'll (the SM and ASMs) will take it under advisement and perhaps change our policy in the future regarding this game."

 

Just put the ball back in their court and make them do the footwork to prove their point.

 

[jpstodwftexas]

Alas No One pointed out the "In Plain View" in that statement

It was Stated 2 Deep Leadership Did Not Apply to Scoutmaster Conference Since it was not an Outing but merely a Meeting and implied it would not violate 1 on 1 Contact. If 2 Deep Leadership does not apply then it must allow 1 on 1 in peoples minds

 

Well Yea Now Days Many establishment Allow People to sit around for Hours on End Sipping a 75 Cent Soda, so Yea You can sit at Public Places, However none around here allow me to Bring in My Critters for My Merit Badges to be Taught. And despite your Luck finding Parents willing to sit around several hours for several secessions, I have yet to have any parents do it..I have turned away Scouters because they can't find someone to come with them and stay or want to take the merit badges at the same time.

 

Like so many people and Organizations now days...Common Sense has gone out the Window in scouting

Rule 2 Deep Leadership...No Common Sense and you get discussions over statements like "Hey It was just the Scoutmaster and two Parents..You have to have 2 Registered Leaders at all Times...Parents are Not Registered Leaders..Argument ensues for " Leadership" actual Rules written Somewhere Else..Followed By No Leadership Because they we Not Out side or Can See Everyone at all times"

 

1 on 1 Argument ensues because 'In Plain Sight' is forgotten or Overlooked

 

and then You Throw in "What was said vs What Heard"

[Eagledad]

Thank you for all the responses. I was kind of flabbergasted Monday night, as we'd done similar things the other 4 yrs I've been with the troop. In fact, the way they did it was pretty much SOP--the boys know the boundaries, and most know the church property fairly well. It's flat ground, without a lot of hazards, IMHO. The other ASM is a trained WBer, who has been trained at Philmont, and may have even instructed there. He works offshore, so he is an intermittent presence with the troop. Very knowledgeable, but gets on my nerves as well as those of the boy leaders. I will discuss this incident with the CC and the SM (who wasn't there Monday due to illness) probably next Monday night.

We had a scouter similar to your adult and we were always having discussions about his style of leadership. He didn't care for mine, but I was the SM. He isn't going to change, so keep him balanced or in check during activities with other adults. Lesson learned is "never" allow him to be the adult in charge at an activity. Barry

[Stosh]

No need to get upset or fight about rules and regs verbatim...

 

TW (tightwad) - "Its too cold outside for the scouts..." Me-"OK, do you have a substitue activity ready for them indoors? I'm all ears. The boys wanted to go outside. They'll come in if they are cold."

 

TW - "They need flashlights / supervision / etc..." Me-"Great, can you go stand outside and SUPERVISE the activity for me? Do you have any flashlights in your car you can loan out?"

 

TW - "G2SS says.... the rules state...." Me-"Hmmm, can you SHOW ME where this is? If I see it in writing, we'll (the SM and ASMs) will take it under advisement and perhaps change our policy in the future regarding this game."

 

Just put the ball back in their court and make them do the footwork to prove their point.

If it's a boy-led program, the boys are the one's deciding whether it's too cold outside or not. An adult that suggests substitute activities runs counter to the goal of the program.

 

Of course they are free to go outside and stand in the cold if they think it's important. Flashlights don't work well in really cold weather.

 

"OUR" policy? Do the boys have a place in this adult-run program?

 

While the energy is put into dumping back on TW, no much is said to support the boys and THEIR decision to hold the game.

 

By the time the third point TW makes, the argument had deteriorated down to legalese arguments. If G2SS states something, it doesn't make any difference if it's 90-degrees outside or 15 below!

 

So often we get caught up in BS arguments that produce nothing more than hurt feelings all the way around.

 

TW "It's too cold outside for the scouts...." Me - If the boys have their coats on, hats and mittens and this is what they want to do, it's okay with me.

 

TW "They need flashlights/supervision, etc." Me - The Scout Motto is Be Prepared. If they don't have a flashlight, it's their problem, not mine. Good leadership needs planning and preparation, they'll figure it out next time. BTW, if you want to go out and keep an eye on them, you can, but my SPL is doing that already.

 

TW - "G2SS says..." Me - Let me look that up, I don't remember reading that part. I'll discuss it with the SPL so he's aware of it if it's really a problem.

 

Every point made by TW is countered with support for the boys' leadership development, not a defensive argument to protect/justify ME!

 

Stosh

[perdidochas]

Alas No One pointed out the "In Plain View" in that statement

It was Stated 2 Deep Leadership Did Not Apply to Scoutmaster Conference Since it was not an Outing but merely a Meeting and implied it would not violate 1 on 1 Contact. If 2 Deep Leadership does not apply then it must allow 1 on 1 in peoples minds

 

Well Yea Now Days Many establishment Allow People to sit around for Hours on End Sipping a 75 Cent Soda, so Yea You can sit at Public Places, However none around here allow me to Bring in My Critters for My Merit Badges to be Taught. And despite your Luck finding Parents willing to sit around several hours for several secessions, I have yet to have any parents do it..I have turned away Scouters because they can't find someone to come with them and stay or want to take the merit badges at the same time.

 

Like so many people and Organizations now days...Common Sense has gone out the Window in scouting

Rule 2 Deep Leadership...No Common Sense and you get discussions over statements like "Hey It was just the Scoutmaster and two Parents..You have to have 2 Registered Leaders at all Times...Parents are Not Registered Leaders..Argument ensues for " Leadership" actual Rules written Somewhere Else..Followed By No Leadership Because they we Not Out side or Can See Everyone at all times"

 

1 on 1 Argument ensues because 'In Plain Sight' is forgotten or Overlooked

 

and then You Throw in "What was said vs What Heard"

You don't need two registered leaders at all times. One and another 21+ yr old is sufficient.

 

From G2SS

Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings

 

It is the responsibility of the chartered organization of any Cub Scout pack, Boy Scout troop, Varsity Scout team, or Venturing crew or ship to inform the committee and leadership of the unit that sufficient adult leadership must be provided on all trips and outings (coed overnight activities require both male and female adult leaders).

 

Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders is not required and adult leadership may be limited to training and guidance of the patrol leadership. With the proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities; coed overnight activities even those including parent and childâ€â€require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.

[Basementdweller]

Simple fix for two deep leadership. all the adults go back inside the CO problem solved.

 

[jpstodwftexas]

Alas No One pointed out the "In Plain View" in that statement

It was Stated 2 Deep Leadership Did Not Apply to Scoutmaster Conference Since it was not an Outing but merely a Meeting and implied it would not violate 1 on 1 Contact. If 2 Deep Leadership does not apply then it must allow 1 on 1 in peoples minds

 

Well Yea Now Days Many establishment Allow People to sit around for Hours on End Sipping a 75 Cent Soda, so Yea You can sit at Public Places, However none around here allow me to Bring in My Critters for My Merit Badges to be Taught. And despite your Luck finding Parents willing to sit around several hours for several secessions, I have yet to have any parents do it..I have turned away Scouters because they can't find someone to come with them and stay or want to take the merit badges at the same time.

 

Like so many people and Organizations now days...Common Sense has gone out the Window in scouting

Rule 2 Deep Leadership...No Common Sense and you get discussions over statements like "Hey It was just the Scoutmaster and two Parents..You have to have 2 Registered Leaders at all Times...Parents are Not Registered Leaders..Argument ensues for " Leadership" actual Rules written Somewhere Else..Followed By No Leadership Because they we Not Out side or Can See Everyone at all times"

 

1 on 1 Argument ensues because 'In Plain Sight' is forgotten or Overlooked

 

and then You Throw in "What was said vs What Heard"

 

Bingo, Your Correct..But I can't tell you how many Times I have "Heard" registered... I was Told I could not have Meetings because I was the Only "Registered" Leader even though I had 5 Parents present..

 

Part of the Problem is there is Not 1 Rule Book but Many and they all sometimes seem to Contradict each other.

And they are Not Even Called Rule Books..

 

Why Can't BSA have 1 Rule Book with Simplified and Plain Wording?

[Stosh]

G2SS is just that, a guide. Whereas one is trying to protect the scout, it is also important to protect the adult. I really don't want my scouting career go down the tubes because some scout had a beef to pick with me. All he has to do is make an accusation and I'm done.

 

Currently I am starting a new troop and it has occurred more than once where I had only one boy show up for a meeting. Even though the G2SS says otherwise, I still don't want to be in a situation where I am 1 on 1 with a boy. So, I ask that a parent stay for the meeting. They simply sit in the back and read a book or whatever. No big deal, but I AM protected! Because we are not officially a unit as of yet, i.e. 5 boys and a committee, I still follow the G2SS recommendations. If one were to get really, really technical about the legalese of this whole situation, I am running a church youth program using the principles of BSA Scouting until we get the unit officially chartered. So technically I don't have to adhere to G2SS, but regardless of whether it is a church program or a scout program, 1 on 1 with an adult is not a good idea. The most recent "problem" I had was 1 on 1 with a boy on a public street. Fortunately there were 2 witnesses that told police that the boy was full of crap with his accusation. Sometimes even public streets aren't safe for adults.

 

Stosh

[Tampa Turtle]

As for the SMC 1-on-1 Our SM does them in a corner of a room in plain sight or outside in the front yard on a public street.

 

 

As for the manhunt I do not see it as a big deal as long as the boy leadership is keeping an eye on problems. Adults were nearby. We had a game of manhunt without flashlights on a backpacking trip and except for one boy running his face into a pine trunk it went fine. Of course the next morning we saw the adjacent bluff with the 80 foot drop to the river....

[Eagle92]

G2SS is just that, a guide. Whereas one is trying to protect the scout, it is also important to protect the adult. I really don't want my scouting career go down the tubes because some scout had a beef to pick with me. All he has to do is make an accusation and I'm done.

 

Currently I am starting a new troop and it has occurred more than once where I had only one boy show up for a meeting. Even though the G2SS says otherwise, I still don't want to be in a situation where I am 1 on 1 with a boy. So, I ask that a parent stay for the meeting. They simply sit in the back and read a book or whatever. No big deal, but I AM protected! Because we are not officially a unit as of yet, i.e. 5 boys and a committee, I still follow the G2SS recommendations. If one were to get really, really technical about the legalese of this whole situation, I am running a church youth program using the principles of BSA Scouting until we get the unit officially chartered. So technically I don't have to adhere to G2SS, but regardless of whether it is a church program or a scout program, 1 on 1 with an adult is not a good idea. The most recent "problem" I had was 1 on 1 with a boy on a public street. Fortunately there were 2 witnesses that told police that the boy was full of crap with his accusation. Sometimes even public streets aren't safe for adults.

 

Stosh

I know someone who had their registration revoked because a known liar (he lied and tried to get 3 leaders in trouble a year before) accused another leader of making a pass at him. The leader caught him out after hours trying to peep into the ladies' showers.

 

Unfortunately there were no witnesses to the incident like there was the year before (3 adults and 3 additional youth), so it was a 'He said, she said" situation and the leader was gone.

[Stosh]

G2SS is just that, a guide. Whereas one is trying to protect the scout, it is also important to protect the adult. I really don't want my scouting career go down the tubes because some scout had a beef to pick with me. All he has to do is make an accusation and I'm done.

 

Currently I am starting a new troop and it has occurred more than once where I had only one boy show up for a meeting. Even though the G2SS says otherwise, I still don't want to be in a situation where I am 1 on 1 with a boy. So, I ask that a parent stay for the meeting. They simply sit in the back and read a book or whatever. No big deal, but I AM protected! Because we are not officially a unit as of yet, i.e. 5 boys and a committee, I still follow the G2SS recommendations. If one were to get really, really technical about the legalese of this whole situation, I am running a church youth program using the principles of BSA Scouting until we get the unit officially chartered. So technically I don't have to adhere to G2SS, but regardless of whether it is a church program or a scout program, 1 on 1 with an adult is not a good idea. The most recent "problem" I had was 1 on 1 with a boy on a public street. Fortunately there were 2 witnesses that told police that the boy was full of crap with his accusation. Sometimes even public streets aren't safe for adults.

 

Stosh

Without third party witnesses, the adult will ALWAYS lose the "he said she said" argument. G2SS is not for my boys, it's for me.

 

Stosh