Coming to terms with my son's troop choice

[dedkad]

I think that the current Pack/Troop model is fundamentally broken. The administrative separation causes a problem where the parents have to choose which one to support, and if they have two sons, it's always the troop since "he'll be in the troop soon."

 

But, the Troops never feel the need to help the Pack, and all BSA recruiting is falling on the shoulders of Cub Parents, and that's pretty lame.

 

GSUSA mostly does single-level troops, but you can do a multi-level troop, which lets you run from age 5-12 under one number. You can operate age based patrols under one banner, and mix the levels up as appropriate. Now, they have a "girls choose" model that is different than "girl led," the GSUSA adults are always completely in charge in a was BSA Troop adults are not.

 

But administratively, you can break up your groups as makes sense for programming, while administering them together, providing multi-level leadership, etc.

 

In years past, our Pack/Troop met same time, different places, and no cross-overs for a few years. The Webelos dropped out as they were outgrowing Cub Scouts. This year, same place, different times (with some overlap). I've "borrowed" a Boy Scout for 10-15 minutes to teach Fire Safety, etc., to the Cubs... when that happens, the boys are SO focused and intent.

 

I'm hoping with the 2015 changes, we'll retire the dated Jungle Book Mythology, and focus Cub Scouts more on going back to being Junior Boy Scouts.

 

If everyone at a CO was in a single Unit, you could float your Webelos Den as a better transitionary program. They should do Webelos "getting ready" activities in Den Meetings, participate in Boy Scout Outings with a Webelos Patrol (with Den Leaders actively involved), and Pack meetings as leadership. They need guidance.

Part of the problem is that the CO troop is a high adventure troop, so most of their outings involve lots of driving, hiking, and rugged conditions, which isn't always age/skill appropriate for Webelos. However, if they are serious about wanting to recruit into their troop from our pack, it seems to me that they should be making an effort to provide at least a few activities that the Webelos could attend to get them to know the troop. If it was encouraged at the troop level, they could easily lend us a Boy Scout now and then, which would be helpful to the pack but may only be marginal for troop recruiting unless the boy makes an effort to get to know the Cub Scouts instead of just being a talking head in a uniform. I saw so much room for improvement that would help both the troop and the pack, and was really gung-ho about trying to resolve that. That's why I was kind of bummed that my son wants to join a different troop.

[moosetracker]

I think that the current Pack/Troop model is fundamentally broken. The administrative separation causes a problem where the parents have to choose which one to support, and if they have two sons, it's always the troop since "he'll be in the troop soon."

 

But, the Troops never feel the need to help the Pack, and all BSA recruiting is falling on the shoulders of Cub Parents, and that's pretty lame.

 

GSUSA mostly does single-level troops, but you can do a multi-level troop, which lets you run from age 5-12 under one number. You can operate age based patrols under one banner, and mix the levels up as appropriate. Now, they have a "girls choose" model that is different than "girl led," the GSUSA adults are always completely in charge in a was BSA Troop adults are not.

 

But administratively, you can break up your groups as makes sense for programming, while administering them together, providing multi-level leadership, etc.

 

In years past, our Pack/Troop met same time, different places, and no cross-overs for a few years. The Webelos dropped out as they were outgrowing Cub Scouts. This year, same place, different times (with some overlap). I've "borrowed" a Boy Scout for 10-15 minutes to teach Fire Safety, etc., to the Cubs... when that happens, the boys are SO focused and intent.

 

I'm hoping with the 2015 changes, we'll retire the dated Jungle Book Mythology, and focus Cub Scouts more on going back to being Junior Boy Scouts.

 

If everyone at a CO was in a single Unit, you could float your Webelos Den as a better transitionary program. They should do Webelos "getting ready" activities in Den Meetings, participate in Boy Scout Outings with a Webelos Patrol (with Den Leaders actively involved), and Pack meetings as leadership. They need guidance.

If they do climbing, maybe to an indoor climbing wall, the older boys can get in some skill training and the Webs could have fun with it.. Or just invite them to some troop meetings where they will go over some of their skill training that is easy enough to do some entry level training with.. Sort of a "We are getting ready for trip ABC" this is some of our training to prepare. So the Webs are too young to go on the trip, but you get their mouth watering thinking about doing it once they are in boys scouts.

[dg98adams]

Just so Cub leaders understand, "Den Chief" is not a SM assigned youth job, it is a youth position for a Boy Scout he needs to want to do, with SM support. It's considered a Position of Responsibility within the Troop, like Patrol Leader or Librarian. The Scout will get term credit for the job in the Troop. It may or may not get filled. Even if it's filled, the Boy Scout does not have to serve the entire Cub Calender year, "(it's encouraged if they want to earn the Den Chief Award)". The Troop does not just "make a Boy Scout" be the "Den Chief" for a Pack. If a CM/WDL/DL is lucky enough to get a Den chief, they need to understand how to work with the Scout to make his participation worth-wile. They are more than "just gofers". If you review the Den Chief Award sheet, you can see how if they knock those items out that can really enrich your den meetings and help him start on the path to becoming a leader. The CM/WDL/DL needs to come to the Troop meetings to recruit. http://www.boyscouttrail.com/content/award/den_chief_service-645.asp

[Eagle92]

DG,

 

Agree that the Boy Scout needs to want to be a DC. DCs forced into the position, like 2 of the 3 DCs we got will not work out well.

 

BUT, an SM needs to constantly remind the youth that the DC POR is available and is a great resource for the troop in getting new scouts.

[Eagle92]

On the flip side, a good DC is worth their weight in platinum, both for the troop and the pack.

[dedkad]

Just so Cub leaders understand, "Den Chief" is not a SM assigned youth job, it is a youth position for a Boy Scout he needs to want to do, with SM support. It's considered a Position of Responsibility within the Troop, like Patrol Leader or Librarian. The Scout will get term credit for the job in the Troop. It may or may not get filled. Even if it's filled, the Boy Scout does not have to serve the entire Cub Calender year, "(it's encouraged if they want to earn the Den Chief Award)". The Troop does not just "make a Boy Scout" be the "Den Chief" for a Pack. If a CM/WDL/DL is lucky enough to get a Den chief, they need to understand how to work with the Scout to make his participation worth-wile. They are more than "just gofers". If you review the Den Chief Award sheet, you can see how if they knock those items out that can really enrich your den meetings and help him start on the path to becoming a leader. The CM/WDL/DL needs to come to the Troop meetings to recruit. http://www.boyscouttrail.com/content/award/den_chief_service-645.asp

The SM may not assign a den chief, but his attitude toward the position can go a long way toward creating a culture in the troop where boys are wanting to be den chiefs.

[Stosh]

On the flip side, a good DC is worth their weight in platinum, both for the troop and the pack.

Any Webelos II DC that transitions with his boy into NSP PL is priceless!

 

Stosh

[fred johnson]

Ya know these discussions bring up a key part that really frustrates me.

 

Stop asking what Troops can do for your pack. Boy Scouts do not exist to serve packs. Boy Scouts want to camp, hike, canoe, throw a football around and socialize with their friends. Asking them to go out of their way to help packs do things is very noble, but it's also fighting an upward battle.

 

Run some events for the packs? I run away from troops that do too many pack / troop events. Those troops usually have adults assigned to market the troops to the packs and have a heavy adult overhead on the scouts. IMHO, I do not think it is an indicator of a good troop at all. If anything, it concerns me about how much the adults are running things.

 

Den chiefs? Many scouts want to be den chiefs but it rarely works because of #1 scheduling conflicts (need to virtually double your scouting time because of separate meetings, separate place, separate days, etc) and #2 how to get there, coordinate and plan (non-leader parents don't want more driving / tracking especially for something that doesn't advance their son). In my experience, den chiefs only work when there is a yonger brother involved in the den ... AND the parent strongly encourages it.

 

If your cubs want to choose a good troop, stop looking asking what troops can do for your Webelos. Ask more about what have they done this last year and what are they doing the next year. Watch a troop meeting from the back of the room.

 

And ya know, if you are in a good pack with strong relationships with other adults that are in the associated troop, don't discount that. Your happiness with the adults leading the troop will greatly influence the success of your scout. IMHO and avoiding extremes, I think it is far more important than choosing the right troop.

 

 

 

[dedkad]

Ya know these discussions bring up a key part that really frustrates me.

 

Stop asking what Troops can do for your pack. Boy Scouts do not exist to serve packs. Boy Scouts want to camp, hike, canoe, throw a football around and socialize with their friends. Asking them to go out of their way to help packs do things is very noble, but it's also fighting an upward battle.

 

Run some events for the packs? I run away from troops that do too many pack / troop events. Those troops usually have adults assigned to market the troops to the packs and have a heavy adult overhead on the scouts. IMHO, I do not think it is an indicator of a good troop at all. If anything, it concerns me about how much the adults are running things.

 

Den chiefs? Many scouts want to be den chiefs but it rarely works because of #1 scheduling conflicts (need to virtually double your scouting time because of separate meetings, separate place, separate days, etc) and #2 how to get there, coordinate and plan (non-leader parents don't want more driving / tracking especially for something that doesn't advance their son). In my experience, den chiefs only work when there is a yonger brother involved in the den ... AND the parent strongly encourages it.

 

If your cubs want to choose a good troop, stop looking asking what troops can do for your Webelos. Ask more about what have they done this last year and what are they doing the next year. Watch a troop meeting from the back of the room.

 

And ya know, if you are in a good pack with strong relationships with other adults that are in the associated troop, don't discount that. Your happiness with the adults leading the troop will greatly influence the success of your scout. IMHO and avoiding extremes, I think it is far more important than choosing the right troop.

 

 

The CO troop's SM and CC shared your attitude, and it cost them an entire den of Webelos. It's not about doing things for the pack, it's about making connections with the boys. When you have much stronger troops in the area, the only way you'll be able to compete is if you make that extra effort to recruit and to teach your boys how to build relationships. We did watch troop meetings from the back of the room. It's the troop where the Boy Scouts made an effort to talk personally with the Webelos and include them in that meeting's activities that won over my boys, not the one with Boy Scouts who just sat up at the front and went about their business and expected that our boys would automatically join because their troop does cool stuff. Yeah, well, the other troop does cool stuff too, and their boys made an effort to get to know me, so I'm joining the other troop because that is where I feel more comfortable.

[fred johnson]

Ya know these discussions bring up a key part that really frustrates me.

 

Stop asking what Troops can do for your pack. Boy Scouts do not exist to serve packs. Boy Scouts want to camp, hike, canoe, throw a football around and socialize with their friends. Asking them to go out of their way to help packs do things is very noble, but it's also fighting an upward battle.

 

Run some events for the packs? I run away from troops that do too many pack / troop events. Those troops usually have adults assigned to market the troops to the packs and have a heavy adult overhead on the scouts. IMHO, I do not think it is an indicator of a good troop at all. If anything, it concerns me about how much the adults are running things.

 

Den chiefs? Many scouts want to be den chiefs but it rarely works because of #1 scheduling conflicts (need to virtually double your scouting time because of separate meetings, separate place, separate days, etc) and #2 how to get there, coordinate and plan (non-leader parents don't want more driving / tracking especially for something that doesn't advance their son). In my experience, den chiefs only work when there is a yonger brother involved in the den ... AND the parent strongly encourages it.

 

If your cubs want to choose a good troop, stop looking asking what troops can do for your Webelos. Ask more about what have they done this last year and what are they doing the next year. Watch a troop meeting from the back of the room.

 

And ya know, if you are in a good pack with strong relationships with other adults that are in the associated troop, don't discount that. Your happiness with the adults leading the troop will greatly influence the success of your scout. IMHO and avoiding extremes, I think it is far more important than choosing the right troop.

 

 

Agreed. Our SPL always brings visiting Webelos / youth up front to introduce them and often gets the scouts to play a game for everyone to meet each other and learn names.

 

What I'm frustrated at are the Cubmasters that view troops as a source of labor / resources such that if you don't bend over backwards for them then they will go elsewhere. Here are the types of requests we get lately?

 

- Can you provide X scouts to help with our pinewood derby?

- Can you provide scouts to staff our auction fundraiser?

- Can your scouts teach these Webelos requirements?

- Can you lend us X tents, dutch ovens, etc for our next event?

- Oh, we can't attend any of those camping dates. Can you reschedule the camp out?

 

Any of them are fine, but the way it's done these days it's like a pressure point of help us or we will go elsewhere. Also, it's not our gear to lend. It's the scouts great. It's not our time to commit. It's the scouts time.

 

The BIG TROUBLE is that many troops are now bending over backwards for recruitment and mis-representing themselves and mis-representing the experience scouts will have in their troops.

 

**** Troop shopping is perverting the Pack / Troop relationships. ****

 

We've always taken the approach that we will get the scouts we get and we'll be happy with it. We don't want to be the largest troop in town just to be the largest troop. But there are three troops in our city that want to be 80+ members and we've just been hovering around 40 members for years. Now, our associated pack is tied strongly to one of the 60+ member troops that really focuses on recruitment and we are hosed. And to be honest, we're okay with that. There are fewer cubs then before and we don't view our top three jobs to be to be marketing, marketing, marketing. Others want to do that fine. We don't. When we drop under 20 scouts, we'll merge with another troop.

[Eagle92]

Fred,

 

Yes, troops are not there to serve the packs. Troops are there to serve the Boy Scouts. BUT if a troop doesn't do anything with a pack, and another troop does, which troop do you think the Cubs will join? Statistically Cub Scouting provides the most Boy Scouts.

 

I've seen this multiple times. When I was a Cub, the troop my Pack's CO chartered did not do anything with the pack: no invitiations to a meetings, no Webelos overniter, nothing at all. They just expected the Cubs to cross over to them. A neighboring troop with no pack did provide a den chief. They did invite us to a meeting. They took us on a Webelos overniter. And everyone in my den joined that troop.

 

I know of a troop that folded because they could no longer get new scouts. Why? Because they did not establish a relationship with the CO's pack. All the Cubs joined a troop that provided den chiefs and did things with them, Ironic thing is this: the troop that folded is restarted and is now working with the pack ( they had a joint Christmas Party in which Cub and Boy Scout awards were given out and the Webelos IIs crossed over) and the troop that was "stealing" the Cubs now is having recruiting problems becasue their feeder pack folded.

 

Recruiting is needed, maybe not to the degree some folks want, but if you are not getting any new scouts, you will run into problems.

[HICO_Eagle]

dedkad, I would agree with your son's SM that Boy Scouts are a time to get a little separation but it doesn't mean complete separation. I suspect what he's trying to do is cut out the helicopter parents but every troop I know needs SOME help from parents, whether it's sitting on boards of review, organizing fundraisers, or helping Scouts plan activities. That may mean you're less involved or less busy than you thought you'd be -- if so, you can still help that Pack connect with the Charter Troop and make sure the liaison job is transferred in a way that lasts past next summer.

[Pack18Alex]

The Troop is responsible for recruiting for the Troop. The Pack is responsible for recruiting for the Pack.

 

Fine.

 

If the Troop wants to find 6th Graders to join and ignore the Pack, that's their choice. But if you don't want to recruit, then you die.

 

Put another way, why should I, as a Pack leader, help your Troop (as opposed to another one) getting a NSP from my Webelos II if you haven't done anything for me.

 

The Troop gets Scouts from Packs. Why is it offensive that Troops have to do something for that?

 

None of us WANT to recruit, it's part of the program. I resent the idea Scouts is all play and no work. Learning that you have to do things you don't want to do, like recruiting, is part of growing up... Last I checked, that was what we are here to do, help turn boys into men. If the troop resents helping the Pack, then you're turning boys into Man-Childs.

[Stosh]

My recruiting policy for my boy-led program consists of: Cubs will want to join Troops where their friends are. If the Cubs join the Troop because they have had interaction a couple of times with the Scouts, they are more apt to join. The message being sent to the Cubs is: Your advancement (AOL) is dependent on what we do to help you. If we can help you with AOL we can help you with Eagle as well. Webelos who have a familiar DC will want to go to the troop where the DC is from. He's their friend already and if he can be their first PL, that would be great.

 

If a troop doesn't make an effort to connect with the Pack, why would those Webelos boys want to connect with the troop. Even a poorly run troop that makes an effort is better than the best BSA program offered by another troop that hasn't the time of day to even say "Hi." I'm not saying they have to be BFF's, or that the troop has to run the pack program, just make enough connection to let the Webelos boys know that the troop is interested in having them join.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

I understand you frustration Fred, but I don't agree with your solution becaue it assumes that all adults are equal and all troop programs are good quality units. My District and Council experience is that about 50% of the troops are good quality while the rest are either in transition or just plan bad programs. Your solution would force 50% of the packs to join low quality programs. Also, while we each have our ideal troop programs, families have different goals for their sons and one troop size doesn't fit all. Likely the BSA would loose more scouts with that program. However, I do agree with you that troops creating activities just to recruit new scouts is a distraction to the intended troop program. As far as I could tell at the time, our troop out of 19 was the only one that didn't plan anything special for visitors. Instead we told Webelos leaders that they could visit our program anytime they liked. We didn't mind surprise visits to Troop meetings, but did ask a weeks advance notice for campouts so that the PLC had time to make accommodations for the extra visiters. We also found that camping overnight was a bit much for Webelos families and just visiting the troop for a day through campfire was plenty for them to see us in action. Their suggestion not ours. While I was on the District committee, I was encourging Troops to not plan special events for recruiting, but Webelos recruiting weekends are a major planned annual event for several troops and they weren't about to change. Barry