Gay policy takes effect, no apparent mass exodus

[qwazse]

Eagledad - Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA;s change to values.. our disagreement is not about if there is duty to God.. But, what a god can be.. If a scout believes a rock is a higher being, and can explain why, that is fine to BSA. Don't know if anyone is a rock worshipper, but many look at nature as their higher power.. The trees, the rivers, the wind etc.. Many others have a feeling something larger then themselves is there, but have aside from there is something, that is the extent of their belief in a higher power..

 

From these people with no religion, but a belief in a higher power, to expect them to state to you what black and white moral ethics their god requires from them is silly, and not required to be in BSA..

 

Pack18Alex - Jews might not do hymns, but Catholics and LDS d.. Growing up protestant, I never did a hymn before/after a meal.. Gosh, my father was a protestant minister.. No hymns at meals EVER, a prayer yes.. I have been in different denominations of protestant church's.. No singing for our meals.. EVER.. Who sings for their supper??

 

Scouts own??? It's freewheeling to be non-denominational, When taught how to do one at Woodbadge we learned things like, don't ask people to remove hats as some faiths do not, the word God wasn't spelled out in our program, instead you were to write it as G-d because Jews find it disrespectful.. Prayers are either totally generic or you hop around with a protestant prayer, Jewish prayer, Muslim prayer etc.. To try to give everyone a part (most people just go generic.).. Scouts own is to try not to exclude anyone.. But, I will admit it is much more Christian then Jewish, but that's because most are Christian, but if you have Muslim, or Jewish or whatever, scouts own should ask them to share with others something about their faith during the service.

 

Discussing religion is not Protestant only.. I know our CO a Catholic church has a bible study class.. I would imagine they also discuss and try to interpret the Bible in it same as protestants.. Sunday school classes or communion classes are to discuss your religion, this is not just a protestant program, definatly both are part of Catholics program LDS at least has Sunday schools.. With LDS a friend who was LDS, and she discussed their faith with their children.. Jahovah witness (not protestant forgot about them).. Definitely love to discuss their religion.. They come to your door to discuss to you about their religion.

MT, sounds like you were at "High Church". It took the vicar I was staying with after college a while to explain this to me, but basically lots of folks in the Church of England loved the whole minimalism (i.e., "Low Church") that that reformation offered, but just as many (including the royals) resented being dragged from their Roman Catholic upbringing. So services were allowed to be as "imperial" as possible for those communities who wanted the country to keep up with their Roman Catholic neighbors, or as "reformed" as possible without becoming violent to their Roman Catholic citizens. Except for the occasional Bloody Mary, Guy Fawkes, and Northern Ireland, it kept an empire peacefully united. So, in any given Episcopal church, on any given day, you could find yourself walking into "High" or "Low" services or something in between. Anyway, that's the "inside/outsider's cliff note's version" that I took home from the UK.

As far as architecture goes, seems like Catholics and Protestants in 19th century Pittsburgh were in a race for "most Gothic" look. This also impacted the style of Jewish houses of worship. Church tours around here are a big thing. And since denominations have exchanged buildings over the years, you never know what you'll get on the inside from just standing on the curb!

[moosetracker]

Eagledad - Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA;s change to values.. our disagreement is not about if there is duty to God.. But, what a god can be.. If a scout believes a rock is a higher being, and can explain why, that is fine to BSA. Don't know if anyone is a rock worshipper, but many look at nature as their higher power.. The trees, the rivers, the wind etc.. Many others have a feeling something larger then themselves is there, but have aside from there is something, that is the extent of their belief in a higher power..

 

From these people with no religion, but a belief in a higher power, to expect them to state to you what black and white moral ethics their god requires from them is silly, and not required to be in BSA..

 

Pack18Alex - Jews might not do hymns, but Catholics and LDS d.. Growing up protestant, I never did a hymn before/after a meal.. Gosh, my father was a protestant minister.. No hymns at meals EVER, a prayer yes.. I have been in different denominations of protestant church's.. No singing for our meals.. EVER.. Who sings for their supper??

 

Scouts own??? It's freewheeling to be non-denominational, When taught how to do one at Woodbadge we learned things like, don't ask people to remove hats as some faiths do not, the word God wasn't spelled out in our program, instead you were to write it as G-d because Jews find it disrespectful.. Prayers are either totally generic or you hop around with a protestant prayer, Jewish prayer, Muslim prayer etc.. To try to give everyone a part (most people just go generic.).. Scouts own is to try not to exclude anyone.. But, I will admit it is much more Christian then Jewish, but that's because most are Christian, but if you have Muslim, or Jewish or whatever, scouts own should ask them to share with others something about their faith during the service.

 

Discussing religion is not Protestant only.. I know our CO a Catholic church has a bible study class.. I would imagine they also discuss and try to interpret the Bible in it same as protestants.. Sunday school classes or communion classes are to discuss your religion, this is not just a protestant program, definatly both are part of Catholics program LDS at least has Sunday schools.. With LDS a friend who was LDS, and she discussed their faith with their children.. Jahovah witness (not protestant forgot about them).. Definitely love to discuss their religion.. They come to your door to discuss to you about their religion.

Thanks qwazse.. That helps explain it.. The women was in high regard by the episcopal church.. She was a trained story teller and the church sent her on all sorts of trips around the world so she could come back and tell everyone else about the culture through her story telling..

 

It might also say that in some Protestant churches, they had at least two different formats..

 

As for churches, I could see buying an old church.. I am surprised that some churches though were built so ornate for an original protestant church.. I am just not use to it.. But, each protestant church is really their own in ideas and beliefs, so I am sure there are some that are that way..

[Peregrinator]

"However, he said if his sons had a gay leader, "we would have to take a look at making other arrangements."" Gay leaders (role models) is and has been the main issue from the beginning. Barry

Numbers declined steadily from 1965 onwards. In 2002 they had a major reorganisation. By 2005 the decline had stopped and indeed since then they have shown a modest increase from about 99000 to 101000.

 

Actually if you look at the current statistics for Scouts Canada you will see that the modest increase of prior years has been followed by a modest decrease:

 

http://www.scoutscan.com/issues/membershipstats.html

 

It's true that membership has been more or less stable since 2006. But look at what Scouts Canada themselves say about these numbers - "The membership decline is not stopping. Although recent numbers (2009-12) show a slight increase in membership, this is due to the inclusion of near-Scouting numbers included in with true Scouting membership."

 

Now I don't believe that the decline of Scouts Canada is solely due to "liberalism" -- that has probably accelerated the decline, however. I think it is more likely that boys of scouting age are playing organized sports, especially hockey, in lieu of scouting.

 

What's interesting is how far Scouts Canada's membership numbers have fallen despite being open to an ostensibly larger pool of youth and adults (they became fully co-ed in 1998 and "inclusive" around the same time). My understanding is that the Canadian Girl Guides have experienced a similar decline (I don't think they publish their numbers).

[Peregrinator]

Eagledad - Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA;s change to values.. our disagreement is not about if there is duty to God.. But, what a god can be.. If a scout believes a rock is a higher being, and can explain why, that is fine to BSA. Don't know if anyone is a rock worshipper, but many look at nature as their higher power.. The trees, the rivers, the wind etc.. Many others have a feeling something larger then themselves is there, but have aside from there is something, that is the extent of their belief in a higher power..

 

From these people with no religion, but a belief in a higher power, to expect them to state to you what black and white moral ethics their god requires from them is silly, and not required to be in BSA..

 

Pack18Alex - Jews might not do hymns, but Catholics and LDS d.. Growing up protestant, I never did a hymn before/after a meal.. Gosh, my father was a protestant minister.. No hymns at meals EVER, a prayer yes.. I have been in different denominations of protestant church's.. No singing for our meals.. EVER.. Who sings for their supper??

 

Scouts own??? It's freewheeling to be non-denominational, When taught how to do one at Woodbadge we learned things like, don't ask people to remove hats as some faiths do not, the word God wasn't spelled out in our program, instead you were to write it as G-d because Jews find it disrespectful.. Prayers are either totally generic or you hop around with a protestant prayer, Jewish prayer, Muslim prayer etc.. To try to give everyone a part (most people just go generic.).. Scouts own is to try not to exclude anyone.. But, I will admit it is much more Christian then Jewish, but that's because most are Christian, but if you have Muslim, or Jewish or whatever, scouts own should ask them to share with others something about their faith during the service.

 

Discussing religion is not Protestant only.. I know our CO a Catholic church has a bible study class.. I would imagine they also discuss and try to interpret the Bible in it same as protestants.. Sunday school classes or communion classes are to discuss your religion, this is not just a protestant program, definatly both are part of Catholics program LDS at least has Sunday schools.. With LDS a friend who was LDS, and she discussed their faith with their children.. Jahovah witness (not protestant forgot about them).. Definitely love to discuss their religion.. They come to your door to discuss to you about their religion.

the smoke pot thing

 

Thurible. Just so everyone's clear that Catholics don't smoke pot during Mass. ;-)

[Peregrinator]

Eagledad - Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA;s change to values.. our disagreement is not about if there is duty to God.. But, what a god can be.. If a scout believes a rock is a higher being, and can explain why, that is fine to BSA. Don't know if anyone is a rock worshipper, but many look at nature as their higher power.. The trees, the rivers, the wind etc.. Many others have a feeling something larger then themselves is there, but have aside from there is something, that is the extent of their belief in a higher power..

 

From these people with no religion, but a belief in a higher power, to expect them to state to you what black and white moral ethics their god requires from them is silly, and not required to be in BSA..

 

Pack18Alex - Jews might not do hymns, but Catholics and LDS d.. Growing up protestant, I never did a hymn before/after a meal.. Gosh, my father was a protestant minister.. No hymns at meals EVER, a prayer yes.. I have been in different denominations of protestant church's.. No singing for our meals.. EVER.. Who sings for their supper??

 

Scouts own??? It's freewheeling to be non-denominational, When taught how to do one at Woodbadge we learned things like, don't ask people to remove hats as some faiths do not, the word God wasn't spelled out in our program, instead you were to write it as G-d because Jews find it disrespectful.. Prayers are either totally generic or you hop around with a protestant prayer, Jewish prayer, Muslim prayer etc.. To try to give everyone a part (most people just go generic.).. Scouts own is to try not to exclude anyone.. But, I will admit it is much more Christian then Jewish, but that's because most are Christian, but if you have Muslim, or Jewish or whatever, scouts own should ask them to share with others something about their faith during the service.

 

Discussing religion is not Protestant only.. I know our CO a Catholic church has a bible study class.. I would imagine they also discuss and try to interpret the Bible in it same as protestants.. Sunday school classes or communion classes are to discuss your religion, this is not just a protestant program, definatly both are part of Catholics program LDS at least has Sunday schools.. With LDS a friend who was LDS, and she discussed their faith with their children.. Jahovah witness (not protestant forgot about them).. Definitely love to discuss their religion.. They come to your door to discuss to you about their religion.

Pack18Alex - I am not sure why you think a protestant service is a free-for all.

 

I don't think he said that all Protestant services are free-for-alls, but rather that free-for-all-type services are Protestant in origin. Which is true enough but some distinctions should be made. I think the free-for-alls are more characteristic of Pentecostalism so even most "low church" Protestant services would have some kind of structure.

[Peregrinator]

Eagledad - Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA;s change to values.. our disagreement is not about if there is duty to God.. But, what a god can be.. If a scout believes a rock is a higher being, and can explain why, that is fine to BSA. Don't know if anyone is a rock worshipper, but many look at nature as their higher power.. The trees, the rivers, the wind etc.. Many others have a feeling something larger then themselves is there, but have aside from there is something, that is the extent of their belief in a higher power..

 

From these people with no religion, but a belief in a higher power, to expect them to state to you what black and white moral ethics their god requires from them is silly, and not required to be in BSA..

 

Pack18Alex - Jews might not do hymns, but Catholics and LDS d.. Growing up protestant, I never did a hymn before/after a meal.. Gosh, my father was a protestant minister.. No hymns at meals EVER, a prayer yes.. I have been in different denominations of protestant church's.. No singing for our meals.. EVER.. Who sings for their supper??

 

Scouts own??? It's freewheeling to be non-denominational, When taught how to do one at Woodbadge we learned things like, don't ask people to remove hats as some faiths do not, the word God wasn't spelled out in our program, instead you were to write it as G-d because Jews find it disrespectful.. Prayers are either totally generic or you hop around with a protestant prayer, Jewish prayer, Muslim prayer etc.. To try to give everyone a part (most people just go generic.).. Scouts own is to try not to exclude anyone.. But, I will admit it is much more Christian then Jewish, but that's because most are Christian, but if you have Muslim, or Jewish or whatever, scouts own should ask them to share with others something about their faith during the service.

 

Discussing religion is not Protestant only.. I know our CO a Catholic church has a bible study class.. I would imagine they also discuss and try to interpret the Bible in it same as protestants.. Sunday school classes or communion classes are to discuss your religion, this is not just a protestant program, definatly both are part of Catholics program LDS at least has Sunday schools.. With LDS a friend who was LDS, and she discussed their faith with their children.. Jahovah witness (not protestant forgot about them).. Definitely love to discuss their religion.. They come to your door to discuss to you about their religion.

I apologize for getting the origin of hymns wrong, I'm not Christian, and while I have huge respect for all people of faith (and respect for people without faith), I'm not an expert on my own religion, let alone an expert on others.

 

Hymns during Mass are a rather recent innovation. During the Middle Ages one would only hear hymns and anthems (an anthem is a song that doesn't have the structure of a hymn -- "Salve Regina" is an anthem while "Hail Holy Queen Enthroned Above" is a hymn) during the Divine Office (the fixed prayers prayed by priests and members of religious orders made up mostly of Psalms; all 150 Psalms would be prayed weekly). The Mass itself doesn't have any hymns; most of its chants come directly from Holy Scripture (e.g., Psalm 25 (26 in Hebrew numbering)).

[Eagledad]

"However, he said if his sons had a gay leader, "we would have to take a look at making other arrangements."" Gay leaders (role models) is and has been the main issue from the beginning. Barry

cambridge's number start at 1997. I believe the liberal policy changes occurred a few years before, so we aren't seeing the big change. It Seems like the membership was around 900,000 in 1992, but that was a while ago. Anyone watching at the time would agree that Canada's program losses are 100% attributed to liberalism.

 

Moose, I have NO desire to watch the BSA fall in anyway. I am by far one of the BSA's biggest cheerleaders, but I am a pragmatic person and if you read all my text you will see that I write without based emotion. I many time write information that I don't like, but is keeps the discussion honest. Some folks just don't like facts that put their stand in a bad light. But if we are to learn the truth, we need to keep the discussion fair and without bias. I agree that most folks on this forum struggle with that. But don't assume anything about me just because you don't like what I write.

 

Barry

[Peregrinator]

"However, he said if his sons had a gay leader, "we would have to take a look at making other arrangements."" Gay leaders (role models) is and has been the main issue from the beginning. Barry

Anyone watching at the time would agree that Canada's program losses are 100% attributed to liberalism.

 

I can't agree. Scouts Canada's membership peaked in 1965 at around 320,000. By 1998, when the association became "inclusive" -- even to the point of forcibly integrating individual units -- membership was down to 211,562, about 2/3 of what it was at its peak. Yes, they have since experienced a precipitous decline, one which shows no sign of stopping, but my guess is that the "liberalizing" of the membership policy only accelerated the rate of a decline that was already happening.

[moosetracker]

Eagledad - Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA;s change to values.. our disagreement is not about if there is duty to God.. But, what a god can be.. If a scout believes a rock is a higher being, and can explain why, that is fine to BSA. Don't know if anyone is a rock worshipper, but many look at nature as their higher power.. The trees, the rivers, the wind etc.. Many others have a feeling something larger then themselves is there, but have aside from there is something, that is the extent of their belief in a higher power..

 

From these people with no religion, but a belief in a higher power, to expect them to state to you what black and white moral ethics their god requires from them is silly, and not required to be in BSA..

 

Pack18Alex - Jews might not do hymns, but Catholics and LDS d.. Growing up protestant, I never did a hymn before/after a meal.. Gosh, my father was a protestant minister.. No hymns at meals EVER, a prayer yes.. I have been in different denominations of protestant church's.. No singing for our meals.. EVER.. Who sings for their supper??

 

Scouts own??? It's freewheeling to be non-denominational, When taught how to do one at Woodbadge we learned things like, don't ask people to remove hats as some faiths do not, the word God wasn't spelled out in our program, instead you were to write it as G-d because Jews find it disrespectful.. Prayers are either totally generic or you hop around with a protestant prayer, Jewish prayer, Muslim prayer etc.. To try to give everyone a part (most people just go generic.).. Scouts own is to try not to exclude anyone.. But, I will admit it is much more Christian then Jewish, but that's because most are Christian, but if you have Muslim, or Jewish or whatever, scouts own should ask them to share with others something about their faith during the service.

 

Discussing religion is not Protestant only.. I know our CO a Catholic church has a bible study class.. I would imagine they also discuss and try to interpret the Bible in it same as protestants.. Sunday school classes or communion classes are to discuss your religion, this is not just a protestant program, definatly both are part of Catholics program LDS at least has Sunday schools.. With LDS a friend who was LDS, and she discussed their faith with their children.. Jahovah witness (not protestant forgot about them).. Definitely love to discuss their religion.. They come to your door to discuss to you about their religion.

Pergenerator - LOL.. Thanks - I had such a clear picture of the "smoke pot thing" in my head, I didn't even visualize the second meaning of that phrase..

 

Also - I think I did state that per any service I went to they seemed to all conform to a fairly similar format, but that I didn't know about all formats.. Protestant simply isn't a single religion, but a cluster of various religions with various beliefs.. So, there definitely may be a group out there that flys by the seat of their pants.. I have seen some TV shows of some type of service that seems pretty lose and fun.. Normally it is of a black congregation group that gets up and sings and people just get up and scream "Praise God" or talk in tongues or say whatever they are feeling.. I am not even sure if there are really congregations like that or if that is TV hype.. But, the background of the church is fairly plain and low key, so the church itself looks protestant like.. But... I haven't gone to a BSA scouts own service that is that way.. But, in other parts of the country.. Maybe this is how it is run, nothing is planned and you just wait for someone to pop up and start a hymn or say something or whatever..

In our area, our services pass out a brochure with a format, and it is set up with specific hymns and prayers.. leading into the Sermon.. the offerings.. the benediction.. then the hymn and then we are done.. Therefore, I will conceded to say the BSA services I have been to seem to have a format, and that format is like a protestant or from what I see the modern style Catholic services I have seen.. But, I wouldn't call it free style.. If I am not mistaken, I think that the wood badge program, when they have to go through teaching a Scouts-own, and then getting the participants to do their own, recommend this format.