Gay policy takes effect, no apparent mass exodus

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

If you reject "law from on high," then you can't really accept Baden-Powell's Scout Law, because the idea of law "as given" is rejected. Scout Law is NOT compatible with "personal morality."

 

The Scout Association that B-P created started accepting atheist scouts a week ago.

[Eagledad]

Also recently from the UK and discussed on this forum:

 

“A girl guide group faces being thrown out of the national association after refusing to force members to drop God from the oath.â€Â

 

The boys may not be too far behind. Seems god is getting in the way of good scouting.

 

Barry

[qwazse]

Regarding BSA being Protestant:

 

BSA is extremely Protestant, it's just that Protestants don't even understand how it's Protestant, which I've posted elsewhere.

 

Scouts' Own: EXTREMELY Protestant. Not the content, which is non-denominational, but the structure. Catholics/Jews/Muslims have fixed prayer liturgy. LDS has it's own structure. Freewheeling services are Protestant.

 

Religious Requirements: talk with parents/religious leader type stuff. Again, very Protestant in the personal interpretation area. Other religions have their own structure.

 

Cub Scouts: Tigers talk about faith that is simply a Protestant approach to faith. Wolf: again, it's a Protestant approach to religion, the electives have things like "learn a hymn before/after meals" -- Jews don't do hymns. We do prayers with the pre-post psalms.

 

In Cub Scouts, my son is talking about Faith, believing in things we can't see, etc. In my son's religious schooling, faith is at most presumed. The boys at this age are learning to read Hebrew, learning the most common prayers, and learning which prayer is for which thing (tricky one: bananas follow the vegetable prayer, not the fruit prayer, since they fruit within 12-18 months and aren't classified as trees), learning the morning blessings said every morning (not subject to your personal views that day). They aren't talking about faith/belief. Muslim youth at this age would be learning their structured prayer service.

 

LDS has their own structure, I'm not aware of the details. It has some heavy Protestant influences in structure (as opposed to the more Judaic/Catholic legalisms), but it's own structure... part of why LDS runs its own Scout Programs. But the structure of their service reflects that they broke off from Protestantism. In contrast, Catholicism and Rabbinic Judaism both broke off from Temple Judaism.

Fun fact about Hymns: some protestants of reformed theology insist that the only ones that should be used in worship are the those that directly quote a Psalm in its entirety. They have some narrow interpretations of scripture to support their view, but I think it was simply a few protestants who were trying to shed the trappings of imperial Christianity really admired how their Jewish buddies were doing things.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The boys may not be too far behind.

 

Wrong. The Girl Guides decided to have only one promise, while the SA has (and has had for quite a long time) various alternate promises; all they did was add a nonreligious one.

 

Seems god is getting in the way of good scouting.

 

True enough in the USA.

[Pack18Alex]

Accepting atheist Scouts is distinct from accepting atheism. Some atheists will reject Scout Law and can't be Scouts, some atheists will accept Scout Law and can be Scouts.

 

The problem is, once you open it up, you end up with atheism crowding out religion, with things like removing God from the promise/oath.

[moosetracker]

Eagledad - Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA;s change to values.. our disagreement is not about if there is duty to God.. But, what a god can be.. If a scout believes a rock is a higher being, and can explain why, that is fine to BSA. Don't know if anyone is a rock worshipper, but many look at nature as their higher power.. The trees, the rivers, the wind etc.. Many others have a feeling something larger then themselves is there, but have aside from there is something, that is the extent of their belief in a higher power..

 

From these people with no religion, but a belief in a higher power, to expect them to state to you what black and white moral ethics their god requires from them is silly, and not required to be in BSA..

 

Pack18Alex - Jews might not do hymns, but Catholics and LDS d.. Growing up protestant, I never did a hymn before/after a meal.. Gosh, my father was a protestant minister.. No hymns at meals EVER, a prayer yes.. I have been in different denominations of protestant church's.. No singing for our meals.. EVER.. Who sings for their supper??

 

Scouts own??? It's freewheeling to be non-denominational, When taught how to do one at Woodbadge we learned things like, don't ask people to remove hats as some faiths do not, the word God wasn't spelled out in our program, instead you were to write it as G-d because Jews find it disrespectful.. Prayers are either totally generic or you hop around with a protestant prayer, Jewish prayer, Muslim prayer etc.. To try to give everyone a part (most people just go generic.).. Scouts own is to try not to exclude anyone.. But, I will admit it is much more Christian then Jewish, but that's because most are Christian, but if you have Muslim, or Jewish or whatever, scouts own should ask them to share with others something about their faith during the service.

 

Discussing religion is not Protestant only.. I know our CO a Catholic church has a bible study class.. I would imagine they also discuss and try to interpret the Bible in it same as protestants.. Sunday school classes or communion classes are to discuss your religion, this is not just a protestant program, definatly both are part of Catholics program LDS at least has Sunday schools.. With LDS a friend who was LDS, and she discussed their faith with their children.. Jahovah witness (not protestant forgot about them).. Definitely love to discuss their religion.. They come to your door to discuss to you about their religion.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Accepting atheist Scouts is distinct from accepting atheism. Some atheists will reject Scout Law and can't be Scouts, some atheists will accept Scout Law and can be Scouts.

 

The problem is, once you open it up, you end up with atheism crowding out religion, with things like removing God from the promise/oath.

The scout law, from the SA's website, is:

A Scout is to be trusted.

A Scout is loyal.

A Scout is friendly and considerate.

A Scout belongs to the worldwide family of Scouts.

A Scout has courage in all difficulties.

A Scout makes good use of time and is careful of possessions and property.

A Scout has self-respect and respect for others.

 

Nothing in there conflicting with atheism.

 

"The problem is, once you open it up, you end up with atheism crowding out religion, with things like removing God from the promise/oath."

 

Don't forget the part about the sky falling.

[Pack18Alex]

Eagledad - Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA;s change to values.. our disagreement is not about if there is duty to God.. But, what a god can be.. If a scout believes a rock is a higher being, and can explain why, that is fine to BSA. Don't know if anyone is a rock worshipper, but many look at nature as their higher power.. The trees, the rivers, the wind etc.. Many others have a feeling something larger then themselves is there, but have aside from there is something, that is the extent of their belief in a higher power..

 

From these people with no religion, but a belief in a higher power, to expect them to state to you what black and white moral ethics their god requires from them is silly, and not required to be in BSA..

 

Pack18Alex - Jews might not do hymns, but Catholics and LDS d.. Growing up protestant, I never did a hymn before/after a meal.. Gosh, my father was a protestant minister.. No hymns at meals EVER, a prayer yes.. I have been in different denominations of protestant church's.. No singing for our meals.. EVER.. Who sings for their supper??

 

Scouts own??? It's freewheeling to be non-denominational, When taught how to do one at Woodbadge we learned things like, don't ask people to remove hats as some faiths do not, the word God wasn't spelled out in our program, instead you were to write it as G-d because Jews find it disrespectful.. Prayers are either totally generic or you hop around with a protestant prayer, Jewish prayer, Muslim prayer etc.. To try to give everyone a part (most people just go generic.).. Scouts own is to try not to exclude anyone.. But, I will admit it is much more Christian then Jewish, but that's because most are Christian, but if you have Muslim, or Jewish or whatever, scouts own should ask them to share with others something about their faith during the service.

 

Discussing religion is not Protestant only.. I know our CO a Catholic church has a bible study class.. I would imagine they also discuss and try to interpret the Bible in it same as protestants.. Sunday school classes or communion classes are to discuss your religion, this is not just a protestant program, definatly both are part of Catholics program LDS at least has Sunday schools.. With LDS a friend who was LDS, and she discussed their faith with their children.. Jahovah witness (not protestant forgot about them).. Definitely love to discuss their religion.. They come to your door to discuss to you about their religion.

I apologize for getting the origin of hymns wrong, I'm not Christian, and while I have huge respect for all people of faith (and respect for people without faith), I'm not an expert on my own religion, let alone an expert on others.

 

I didn't say discussing religion, I said discussing faith.

 

Focus on Faith is a VERY Christian concept... salvage via faith, etc.

 

Jews have a commandment that is best translated as to KNOW God. We're not supposed to have faith, we're supposed to KNOW God and we're supposed to serve God via 613 Commandments.

 

There is no bonus in the world to come for faith, simply for doing positive commandments/deeds, and not violating negative commandments.

 

I have tremendous respect for what BSA is doing with Scouts' Own. I'm just suggesting that a freewheeling service is a Protestant STYLE service, with non-denominational and inter-denominational prayers. Jews, Muslims, and Catholics have a set prayer structure. The Jewish prayer structure is at least 1600 years old, the Muslim one at least 1200 or 1300 years old... the Catholic liturgy has had more recent changes.

 

If I ran a Scouts Own, where we started with Psalms, morning blessings of Thanksgiving (with non-denomination versions), then a silent prayer (letting Scouts do their own to be non-denominational) then the fixed prayers read by a leader, read the Torah portion for the week, read the Haftorah (book of Prophets) for the week, and then did another silent/repetition prayer set, interspersing different Psalms and prayers from faiths around the fixed prayer sets, it'd be non-sectarian, but it'd be a non-sectarian Jewish service.

 

I think BSA does a wonderful job being inclusive. My Council and District are being AMAZING at including our seemingly quirky Jewish Units. I don't want to take away from what BSA does to include all faiths. I'm just suggesting there is a certain underlying Protestant Lens. Nothing wrong with that, the program is EXTREMELY flexible for us to adapt towards our faith, for both faith-based and non-denominational Units. But there are certain parts of it that are inherently Protestant that we work with.

 

Quick FYI: the idea of writing G-d instead of God isn't disrespectful, it's to avoid destroying the name of God. It technically only applies in Hebrew, but many Jews will not write, on paper, God in English. You can write it out in Hebrew too, it's just that instead of throwing away the paper, you bury it.

[Eagledad]

>>Eagledad - Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA;s change to values.<<

 

I don't understand, what changes to values? Vision, Mission Statement, Oath and Law have not changed. .

 

Barry

[Stosh]

Eagledad - Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA;s change to values.. our disagreement is not about if there is duty to God.. But, what a god can be.. If a scout believes a rock is a higher being, and can explain why, that is fine to BSA. Don't know if anyone is a rock worshipper, but many look at nature as their higher power.. The trees, the rivers, the wind etc.. Many others have a feeling something larger then themselves is there, but have aside from there is something, that is the extent of their belief in a higher power..

 

From these people with no religion, but a belief in a higher power, to expect them to state to you what black and white moral ethics their god requires from them is silly, and not required to be in BSA..

 

Pack18Alex - Jews might not do hymns, but Catholics and LDS d.. Growing up protestant, I never did a hymn before/after a meal.. Gosh, my father was a protestant minister.. No hymns at meals EVER, a prayer yes.. I have been in different denominations of protestant church's.. No singing for our meals.. EVER.. Who sings for their supper??

 

Scouts own??? It's freewheeling to be non-denominational, When taught how to do one at Woodbadge we learned things like, don't ask people to remove hats as some faiths do not, the word God wasn't spelled out in our program, instead you were to write it as G-d because Jews find it disrespectful.. Prayers are either totally generic or you hop around with a protestant prayer, Jewish prayer, Muslim prayer etc.. To try to give everyone a part (most people just go generic.).. Scouts own is to try not to exclude anyone.. But, I will admit it is much more Christian then Jewish, but that's because most are Christian, but if you have Muslim, or Jewish or whatever, scouts own should ask them to share with others something about their faith during the service.

 

Discussing religion is not Protestant only.. I know our CO a Catholic church has a bible study class.. I would imagine they also discuss and try to interpret the Bible in it same as protestants.. Sunday school classes or communion classes are to discuss your religion, this is not just a protestant program, definatly both are part of Catholics program LDS at least has Sunday schools.. With LDS a friend who was LDS, and she discussed their faith with their children.. Jahovah witness (not protestant forgot about them).. Definitely love to discuss their religion.. They come to your door to discuss to you about their religion.

Every Jew, Christian and Muslim know there is no name for God. Either they leave it blank, or make up a name like Christians (God), Jews (Yahweh), and Muslims (Allah). Because of this when they change the US motto from One nation under God to One nation under whoever you want it to be, it's not going to bother me at all. It all refers to the same thing. It's kinda like when the State of Georgia was beaten down to changing it's state flag from the unofficial Confederate Battleflag of Northern Virginia and so they changed it to the official Confederate National Flag, i.e. Stars and Bars. Now every one is happy, even the Georgians!

 

When people don't know what they're talking about it makes for some rather humorous results.

 

Stosh

[Pack18Alex]

Eagledad - Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA;s change to values.. our disagreement is not about if there is duty to God.. But, what a god can be.. If a scout believes a rock is a higher being, and can explain why, that is fine to BSA. Don't know if anyone is a rock worshipper, but many look at nature as their higher power.. The trees, the rivers, the wind etc.. Many others have a feeling something larger then themselves is there, but have aside from there is something, that is the extent of their belief in a higher power..

 

From these people with no religion, but a belief in a higher power, to expect them to state to you what black and white moral ethics their god requires from them is silly, and not required to be in BSA..

 

Pack18Alex - Jews might not do hymns, but Catholics and LDS d.. Growing up protestant, I never did a hymn before/after a meal.. Gosh, my father was a protestant minister.. No hymns at meals EVER, a prayer yes.. I have been in different denominations of protestant church's.. No singing for our meals.. EVER.. Who sings for their supper??

 

Scouts own??? It's freewheeling to be non-denominational, When taught how to do one at Woodbadge we learned things like, don't ask people to remove hats as some faiths do not, the word God wasn't spelled out in our program, instead you were to write it as G-d because Jews find it disrespectful.. Prayers are either totally generic or you hop around with a protestant prayer, Jewish prayer, Muslim prayer etc.. To try to give everyone a part (most people just go generic.).. Scouts own is to try not to exclude anyone.. But, I will admit it is much more Christian then Jewish, but that's because most are Christian, but if you have Muslim, or Jewish or whatever, scouts own should ask them to share with others something about their faith during the service.

 

Discussing religion is not Protestant only.. I know our CO a Catholic church has a bible study class.. I would imagine they also discuss and try to interpret the Bible in it same as protestants.. Sunday school classes or communion classes are to discuss your religion, this is not just a protestant program, definatly both are part of Catholics program LDS at least has Sunday schools.. With LDS a friend who was LDS, and she discussed their faith with their children.. Jahovah witness (not protestant forgot about them).. Definitely love to discuss their religion.. They come to your door to discuss to you about their religion.

Overstated. The High Priest new the ineffable name, and mentioned it in the holy of holies as part of the Yom Kippur service.

 

Various names used for God are prohibited from distraction under Jewish law.

[moosetracker]

Eagledad - Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA;s change to values.. our disagreement is not about if there is duty to God.. But, what a god can be.. If a scout believes a rock is a higher being, and can explain why, that is fine to BSA. Don't know if anyone is a rock worshipper, but many look at nature as their higher power.. The trees, the rivers, the wind etc.. Many others have a feeling something larger then themselves is there, but have aside from there is something, that is the extent of their belief in a higher power..

 

From these people with no religion, but a belief in a higher power, to expect them to state to you what black and white moral ethics their god requires from them is silly, and not required to be in BSA..

 

Pack18Alex - Jews might not do hymns, but Catholics and LDS d.. Growing up protestant, I never did a hymn before/after a meal.. Gosh, my father was a protestant minister.. No hymns at meals EVER, a prayer yes.. I have been in different denominations of protestant church's.. No singing for our meals.. EVER.. Who sings for their supper??

 

Scouts own??? It's freewheeling to be non-denominational, When taught how to do one at Woodbadge we learned things like, don't ask people to remove hats as some faiths do not, the word God wasn't spelled out in our program, instead you were to write it as G-d because Jews find it disrespectful.. Prayers are either totally generic or you hop around with a protestant prayer, Jewish prayer, Muslim prayer etc.. To try to give everyone a part (most people just go generic.).. Scouts own is to try not to exclude anyone.. But, I will admit it is much more Christian then Jewish, but that's because most are Christian, but if you have Muslim, or Jewish or whatever, scouts own should ask them to share with others something about their faith during the service.

 

Discussing religion is not Protestant only.. I know our CO a Catholic church has a bible study class.. I would imagine they also discuss and try to interpret the Bible in it same as protestants.. Sunday school classes or communion classes are to discuss your religion, this is not just a protestant program, definatly both are part of Catholics program LDS at least has Sunday schools.. With LDS a friend who was LDS, and she discussed their faith with their children.. Jahovah witness (not protestant forgot about them).. Definitely love to discuss their religion.. They come to your door to discuss to you about their religion.

Pack18Alex - I am not sure why you think a protestant service is a free-for all.. I can't speak for all Protestant denominations, but of all the churches. I have gone to it has had a fairly consistent format. Except for an Episcopalian service but it wasn't a typical service, but a funeral, but it just didn't seem Protestant at all..

 

Opening hymn (or 2)

prayer

Welcoming new people and noting people we need to keep in our prayers

reading of a few verses from the bible

(Once a month) a hymn and communion

Lords Prayer

hymn

Sermon

hymn

offering

hymn

 

Now I go to more liberal denominations.. The more conservative denominations may have a more formal layout.. But, I would be surprised if the conservatives just wing it, they are more set in their ways and want a routine.

 

Now except for the Lords prayer, the prayer, the bible reading, they hymns vary every week.. The Welcoming section may be always done by the minister, or he may ask the church members to introduce themselves or announce people who are sick or need to be in our prayers for some reason. The sermon depends on the minister, and his writing style.. I am use to most being about current events and making reference to bible passages or how it relates to how you should act as a Christian.. A few stay pretty much biblical, with maybe a comment for how it would relate in current day..

 

The Liberal Protestants are very low key and informal in their service, but it is definitely is set in a very predictable format.. One or two extras may be added in a church like one church early on had the young children come up, the minister told them a story for them, then they left for their Sunday School classes and did not fidget all through the service.

 

I have seem some Catholic services with pomp-and-circumstance.. The priests in fancy gowns and waving the smoke pot thing, with fancy robes and hats.. But unless it is different depending on the church, I haven't seen it for a while.. The Catholic church seems to run close to the Protestant format in the few I have seen in the last few years.. Perhaps the pomp-and-circumstance is on special occasions? Who knows..

 

The Episcopal funeral I saw seemed real strange, as it looked more Catholic, the church was heavy and ornate, not one but several priests and you could tell there was a pecking order with first in line coming down the isle in the fine robes and two foot tall pointed hats you see on Catholic popes or bishops, and they had the smoking pot.. I was surprise to find it was a protestant church, and years later very surprised to be told the episcopal is one of our very liberal denominations.. But, like I said, it was a funeral and the person was one who worked for the Episcopal church, so she had many friends in the church.. So an extra special service perhaps.. Still the church had that heavy ornate gothic feel old Catholic churches have.. Protestant churches are usually very plain, maybe a few stain glass windows.. But a lot don't even have that.

[moosetracker]

>>Eagledad - Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA;s change to values.<<

 

I don't understand, what changes to values? Vision, Mission Statement, Oath and Law have not changed. .

 

Barry

Sorry I don't remember even writing that, or why it showed up that way.. I remember thinking I was writing something more like "Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA's policy as it is".. Don't know if I cut something out which caused this, Or what.

[packsaddle]

...Liberal ideas and Religion are not the same mix as vinegar and water.. Perhaps in YOUR religion' date=' where YOU live it is, but not every where..[/quote']

 

True. I'm both Liberal and Catholic. I don't see them as contradicting each other. Some people do, but it's just different interpretations of the faith. There are always elements of all religions that the majority of the practitioners ignore or modify. We don't accept slavery any more evem though you could point to the bible for justification of the practice. Nor do we largely accept underage marriages, in the US at least. It's socially unacceptable, even though religiously it could be permitted.

 

So some folks want to say that there is something in the bible that tells me I should look unfavorably on gay people. But my faith, my personal convictions and my religious beliefs, they all tell me otherwise.

I hope everyone understands that vinegar and water mix very well. And that actually vinegar IS an aqueous solution in the first place.

[packsaddle]

As an individual, you can absolutely have verb strong morals and be an atheist. You can be a very strong theist and utterly immoral. The very legalistic side of Judaism, Catholicism, and Islam all tend towards amoral legalisms. That's NOT the point.

 

Scout Law as a philosophical framework requires that there be an absolute set of principles, enumerated as 12 points of Scout Law. That framework requires "black and white" from an external higher authority.

 

It is a philosophical framework, divine morality. There are certainly non-divine morality frameworks, but most of them require a degree of case-by-case relatavisms. For example, if we accept Rawl's Theory of Justice as our framework, then all actions get viewed through a Veil of Ignorance, and morality is determined by how we would feel if we had no idea which side of the equation we'd be on. This encourages compassion for the less fortunate, but it's case by case. If you accept Utilitarianism as your framework, it's greatest good for the greatest number, which accepts scapegoating, but again is case by case. If we accept Kant's categorical imperative, then we have to evaluate each decision on universality, something is only moral if everyone doing it results in a good result. This is the most compatible with Scouting, BTW, but runs into conflict with the ability to deal with behaviors that are harmless in small numbers, bad universally. To bring it back to the current subject, acceptance of Homosexuality is rejected by Abrahamic Divine Law, accepted by Theory of Justice, and Utilitarianism is somewhat indifferent, while perhaps seeing that the greatest good is accepting everyone for whom they are. The categorical imperative forces a condemnation of homosexuality, because if EVERYONE is homosexual, society crumbles.

 

So it is very possible to build a personal moral worldview without divine law. It's very possible to build a philosophical worldview without divine law.

 

However, Scout Law, with its emphasis on 12 unbreakable virtues to live by, is NOT compatible with case-by-case philosophy. At it's core, the Scout Law requires accepting those virtues as given and not negotiable. Mosaic Law is given by Torah/Talmud, Christian law by Bible/Canon/Governing bodies, and Scout Law is given by Baden-Powell.

 

If you reject "law from on high," then you can't really accept Baden-Powell's Scout Law, because the idea of law "as given" is rejected. Scout Law is NOT compatible with "personal morality."

 

One can ABIDE by Scout Law and ABIDE by personal morality, but only because in your personal morality, you've chosen to embrace Scout Law. The nature that Scout Law simply is and must be accepted is not compatible with a view of personal morality.

 

Now, if you embrace personal morality AND scout law, you don't see this conflict... that's not my ignorance, that's your selection bias. Those that embrace personal morality and reject scout law simple aren't Scouts/Scouters, so they aren't in the discussion.

Say....How about that water and vinegar. I hope everyone understands that vinegar and water mix very well. And that actually vinegar IS an aqueous solution in the first place.