Gay policy takes effect, no apparent mass exodus

[moosetracker]

All this speculation based on what? Guesses? Until after a round of rechartering there is no measurable what of knowing what if any affect this new policy has or will have.

 

This discussion is nothing more than thread flaming.

 

Stosh

No one has stated numbers Nationwide.. Just numbers in Councils where there numbers are in.. So if your council rechartered in Sept, Nov or Dec.. your numbers would be in.. If you recharter in Jan. Feb etc.. Then I am sure the DE has a good handle on it, because his job is to increase membership by XYZ and they can't just close their eyes and wait for recharter, but are out their with their finger on the pulse at all times.. But no if annual recharter has not happened yet, then you can not predict.

 

From what I remember when we discussed rechartering dates, I think though there were concils who rechartered on different months, the majority of councils recharter in December, for a charter that ran from Jan to Dec.. So most of the numbers are in, thanks to the speed of on-line rechartering.

[Cambridgeskip]

"However, he said if his sons had a gay leader, "we would have to take a look at making other arrangements."" Gay leaders (role models) is and has been the main issue from the beginning. Barry

Huzzar

 

Sorry for the delay, I had to go and look for the numbers.

 

Numbers of UK Scouts looks like this based on census taken at 31 Jan each year

 

1997 - 607369

1998 - 579451

1999 - 554,440

2000 - 526747

2001 - 496447

2002 - 476992

2003 - 461985 - Note, the wholesale changes to the age ranges, programme, uniform etc took effect from April 2003

2004 - 450,557 Peter Duncan becomes Chief Scout (Children's TV presenter)

2005 - 446000

2006 - 446,352

2007 - 453315

2008 - 467676

2009 - 482446 - Bear Grylls becomes Chief Scout

2010 - 499889

2011 - 508946

2012 - 525332

2013 - 536787

 

So to be honest I don't think the turn around can be pinned on Bear Grylls. His presence and the good PR it brings is one of a number of factors that has turned it around. Others being generally better PR and Coms from HQ. A good programme, A more functional and more fashionable uniform. The 2007 world jamboree and centenary and the change in age ranges that better reflect peer groups.

 

Hope that helps!

[Eagledad]

>>I know that there are other factors to both Countries.. But, Eagledad would like to believe Canada is solely due to gays, and ignore England because it doesn't fit his argument<<

 

I was actively corresponding with several Canadian Scout leaders back when the program changed because I liked some of their program design ideas that helped me with my program. I remember clearly when those scouters announced they were dropping out because of the policy change. It wasn’t just admitting gays, it included admitting atheist. Canada at the time had either the first or second largest Boy Scout program in the world at the time. It lost somewhere between 60 and 70 percent over the next 10 years or so before it leveled off. Of course it also sold A LOT property and assets to deal with the problems.

 

But let’s not ignore programs even closer to home. I don’t know the numbers but the Campfire Kids had a big membership loss that was directly associated to accepting gay leaders and they have not recovered to that level yet. I know this pretty well because a close friend’s wife was at the national level of the organization. They’re biggest issue was the loss of alumni contributions which was huge.

 

Then there is the Girls Scouts, they took a big hit as well when they allowed gays, but they are so deep in reacting to political activism, it’s hard to understand what exactly took them down. I’m confident that it’s 100% liberal.

 

As for the BSA, I agree with stosh that it will take a couple years to see the real effect of the policy change. Back when I was accumulating national membership data for Webelos and Troop memberships, I was frustrated because I had to monitor numbers for 18 months minimum to follow one scout. And that doesn’t mean he was active either. National doesn’t have a system to know their exact membership at any one time. It can never know how many active members it has because it can takes at least a year to filter out scouts who joined but was never active.

 

In my opinion, scouting can’t survive liberalism because the program is wrapped around encouraging individual values based from one source, which is God. Doesn't matter which, god, but god is the one unchangable standard the Oath and Law are held grounded. Liberalism by its nature defines values at a more institutional level which dramatically limits individualism and encourages local values that change with change in local leadership. The program has to move away from a fixed set of morals to induce its own set of values, or lack thereof. The BSA will have change to a godless camping club to survive, much like the Young Men’s Christian Association (YMCA). But even at that, it will never have the numbers of last year. That’s not theory, it’s history.

 

Barry

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Doesn't matter which, god, but god is the one unchangable standard the Oath and Law are held grounded.

 

That's hilarious. An unchangable standard, but it doesn't matter which of various unchangable standards are used. Or even if they're unchangable (as the BSA has never had such a requirement).

[Eagledad]

>> An unchangable standard, but it doesn't matter which of various unchangable standards are used. Or even if they're unchangable (as the BSA has never had such a requirement).<<

 

Ah, I can understand why an atheist would struggle with that. Christians, Muslims, and Hebrews all “do their duty to God†to the full extent of their religion.

 

Barry

[moosetracker]

I guess I have some difficulty too, even though not a atheist.. 2 packs, 3 troops, 1 Venture crew and fairly good knowledge of other units though I was never a member of.. The oath does have God in it. And you definitely can't think you will melt and fizzle into a puddle by saying an oath or pledge with a nod to god in it.. But, none of these units "... is wrapped around encouraging individual values based from one source, which is God... " Very little about god is discussed at all.. Oh some of these units had a church as the CO, the pack I now work with has one member from that church. Last year we had someone else in this pack who was the one & only a church member Adult/scout.. Before that no one in the other 2 units associated to a church had a member from the church.. The other three were not associated to a church at all.

 

Instead, everyone had different beliefs and levels of belief from serious church goer to "I am open minded there might be something there, don't know what." This didn't make a solid wrap around anything.. It more made a topic you rarely broached, except pointing out at camp there is a chapel, anyone is free to go if they want on Sunday morning. None of these 6 units ever ran there own "Scouts Own", nor do I remember anyone running one at a district event that ran over Sunday morning.. Everyone too busy packing up and clearing out.. Prayer at meals only if some scout needed it signed off for his advancement, scout camp mess hall, otherwise never.. Prayer may be at an Eagle court of honor or not.. That is the extent of anything religious in these units.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are units tied tightly to their CO, maybe all members of the church.. The LDS move out before Sunday, so they do pay heavy attention to their religious side of their youth group.. I am sure a few with open enrollment pay more heed then my units, but I have witnessed many units and have not seen it.. So, I would say my 6 units are pretty typical for most BSA units..

 

Also many religious people are liberal leaning.. Even from the same denomination.. Depends on what you consider the important thing to spotlight in your religious teachings. (Social judgment of others and keeping the sinner at arms length -or- helping the poor and needy, and getting elbow deep in aiding them.) Take my two scout members of our packs current CO.. Last year's member left due to the vote, other one joined this Fall with a Tiger scout (so doubt due to the vote.. But, didn't dampen their joining.) The Catholic Priest (our CO).. Has no problem with the BSA vote, and is fine with them opening it up to adult homosexuals. No, idea what his opinion would be to opening to atheists. I doubt it will be an issue in my scouting career, but sure someday it will be an issue..

 

Actually I am very liberal, everyone on that forum should know that by now. Yet, I enjoy talking with our CO, Catholic priest.. We have not disagreed on anything that I can think of, he is a typical north-eastern liberal.. We both get a kick out of their new Pope, who says he is not liberal, but his teachings don't make any liberals angry.. Liberal ideas and Religion are not the same mix as vinegar and water.. Perhaps in YOUR religion, where YOU live it is, but not every where..

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

>> An unchangable standard, but it doesn't matter which of various unchangable standards are used. Or even if they're unchangable (as the BSA has never had such a requirement).<<

 

Ah, I can understand why an atheist would struggle with that. Christians, Muslims, and Hebrews all “do their duty to God†to the full extent of their religion.

 

Barry

I'm not struggling with anything. A scout can be Jewish (and refrain from, say, eating bacon) and do his duty to that god, convert to Christianity and eat bacon (but refrain from, say, polygamy), then convert to Islam and NOT eat bacon but polygamy is now allowed.

 

Or, he could be a Mormon in 1977 and blacks could not become priests. Then in 1978 they could.

 

"Unchangable standards" -- until they change.

[Sentinel947]

I guess I have some difficulty too, even though not a atheist.. 2 packs, 3 troops, 1 Venture crew and fairly good knowledge of other units though I was never a member of.. The oath does have God in it. And you definitely can't think you will melt and fizzle into a puddle by saying an oath or pledge with a nod to god in it.. But, none of these units "... is wrapped around encouraging individual values based from one source, which is God... " Very little about god is discussed at all.. Oh some of these units had a church as the CO, the pack I now work with has one member from that church. Last year we had someone else in this pack who was the one & only a church member Adult/scout.. Before that no one in the other 2 units associated to a church had a member from the church.. The other three were not associated to a church at all.

 

Instead, everyone had different beliefs and levels of belief from serious church goer to "I am open minded there might be something there, don't know what." This didn't make a solid wrap around anything.. It more made a topic you rarely broached, except pointing out at camp there is a chapel, anyone is free to go if they want on Sunday morning. None of these 6 units ever ran there own "Scouts Own", nor do I remember anyone running one at a district event that ran over Sunday morning.. Everyone too busy packing up and clearing out.. Prayer at meals only if some scout needed it signed off for his advancement, scout camp mess hall, otherwise never.. Prayer may be at an Eagle court of honor or not.. That is the extent of anything religious in these units.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are units tied tightly to their CO, maybe all members of the church.. The LDS move out before Sunday, so they do pay heavy attention to their religious side of their youth group.. I am sure a few with open enrollment pay more heed then my units, but I have witnessed many units and have not seen it.. So, I would say my 6 units are pretty typical for most BSA units..

 

Also many religious people are liberal leaning.. Even from the same denomination.. Depends on what you consider the important thing to spotlight in your religious teachings. (Social judgment of others and keeping the sinner at arms length -or- helping the poor and needy, and getting elbow deep in aiding them.) Take my two scout members of our packs current CO.. Last year's member left due to the vote, other one joined this Fall with a Tiger scout (so doubt due to the vote.. But, didn't dampen their joining.) The Catholic Priest (our CO).. Has no problem with the BSA vote, and is fine with them opening it up to adult homosexuals. No, idea what his opinion would be to opening to atheists. I doubt it will be an issue in my scouting career, but sure someday it will be an issue..

 

Actually I am very liberal, everyone on that forum should know that by now. Yet, I enjoy talking with our CO, Catholic priest.. We have not disagreed on anything that I can think of, he is a typical north-eastern liberal.. We both get a kick out of their new Pope, who says he is not liberal, but his teachings don't make any liberals angry.. Liberal ideas and Religion are not the same mix as vinegar and water.. Perhaps in YOUR religion, where YOU live it is, but not every where..

Moose:

Your Priest probably isn't quite as liberal (from a Political Standpoint) as you think. Part of the culture war is Catholics come off as extremely Conservative Politically, when in reality, it's not so.

 

Catholic Doctrine rejects extremes, Which is how Pope John Paul 2 can reject Communism and Pope Francis rejects unfettered consumerism and lack of concern for the poor.

 

Catholicism doesn't fall neatly into American Political Spectrum tests as many pundits think it does.

 

An Orthodox Catholic would agree with Conservatives on:

No to abortion.

That homosexual activity is a sin. (This doesn't necessarily mean social judgment of others or holding sinners at arms length.)

No medically assisted suicide.

 

An Orthodox Catholic would agree with Liberals:

More assistance to the poor and needy.

No to the death penalty.

 

I can't really explain all of Catholic social positions in one post. I'd like to add some nuance to two of those points.

 

Catholic positions on what is the proper role of government in terms of alleviating poverty is somewhat up to individual conscience. As a more "Liberal" (I'd say orthodox, but whatever) Catholic I believe the government does have a role in charity to the poor.

 

The Church believes homosexuality is intrinsically against Natural Law but having homosexual tendencies doesn't make one a sinner inherently. We are defined by our actions. Some Christians like to make gays into a super sinning scapegoat of sorts. (Looking at you Fred Phelps....) This is explicitly rejected in Catholicism.

 

I like Pope Francis's style. He hasn't changed any doctrines of the Church, despite some of the press's desires. His emphasis on Social Justice reflects where he comes from. I think he's right to emphasis Catholic Social Justice teachings, and I hope our American Council of Catholic Bishops do the same. It's been sorely neglected during the Culture War.

 

Anything I've said can be found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I can pull citations if desired.

 

Also Moose, I firmly agree with your CO about the ban and Scouting. I don't think allowing gays or atheists should stop Catholic support of the program. Just like a Church's other ministry's, non Catholics should be part of those things. Perhaps they become Catholic, or it simply gives them a better opinion of the Church and that's a win either way.

 

Yours in Scouting,

Sentinel

[Sentinel947]

Policy change hasn't affected my decision to stay with Program. Haven't heard about anything serious in my council. Will see the status of the Troop tonight during our first PLC and Troop Meeting of the New Year!

 

Sentinel947

[moosetracker]

I guess I have some difficulty too, even though not a atheist.. 2 packs, 3 troops, 1 Venture crew and fairly good knowledge of other units though I was never a member of.. The oath does have God in it. And you definitely can't think you will melt and fizzle into a puddle by saying an oath or pledge with a nod to god in it.. But, none of these units "... is wrapped around encouraging individual values based from one source, which is God... " Very little about god is discussed at all.. Oh some of these units had a church as the CO, the pack I now work with has one member from that church. Last year we had someone else in this pack who was the one & only a church member Adult/scout.. Before that no one in the other 2 units associated to a church had a member from the church.. The other three were not associated to a church at all.

 

Instead, everyone had different beliefs and levels of belief from serious church goer to "I am open minded there might be something there, don't know what." This didn't make a solid wrap around anything.. It more made a topic you rarely broached, except pointing out at camp there is a chapel, anyone is free to go if they want on Sunday morning. None of these 6 units ever ran there own "Scouts Own", nor do I remember anyone running one at a district event that ran over Sunday morning.. Everyone too busy packing up and clearing out.. Prayer at meals only if some scout needed it signed off for his advancement, scout camp mess hall, otherwise never.. Prayer may be at an Eagle court of honor or not.. That is the extent of anything religious in these units.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are units tied tightly to their CO, maybe all members of the church.. The LDS move out before Sunday, so they do pay heavy attention to their religious side of their youth group.. I am sure a few with open enrollment pay more heed then my units, but I have witnessed many units and have not seen it.. So, I would say my 6 units are pretty typical for most BSA units..

 

Also many religious people are liberal leaning.. Even from the same denomination.. Depends on what you consider the important thing to spotlight in your religious teachings. (Social judgment of others and keeping the sinner at arms length -or- helping the poor and needy, and getting elbow deep in aiding them.) Take my two scout members of our packs current CO.. Last year's member left due to the vote, other one joined this Fall with a Tiger scout (so doubt due to the vote.. But, didn't dampen their joining.) The Catholic Priest (our CO).. Has no problem with the BSA vote, and is fine with them opening it up to adult homosexuals. No, idea what his opinion would be to opening to atheists. I doubt it will be an issue in my scouting career, but sure someday it will be an issue..

 

Actually I am very liberal, everyone on that forum should know that by now. Yet, I enjoy talking with our CO, Catholic priest.. We have not disagreed on anything that I can think of, he is a typical north-eastern liberal.. We both get a kick out of their new Pope, who says he is not liberal, but his teachings don't make any liberals angry.. Liberal ideas and Religion are not the same mix as vinegar and water.. Perhaps in YOUR religion, where YOU live it is, but not every where..

Being a Republican or a Democrat isn't black and white either.. You can be a Democrat and still be against abortion, but more so want to help the poor, (plus several other issues that can check either in the plus or negative box for which party you vote for..) Same with a Republican, many agree with their financial plans but are very against their social policies, but money wins out so they vote republican..

 

I do not fool myself into thinking the Father is fully supportive of all Democratic ideas.. It was funny during the last presidential election at first the Catholic church went full steam for trying to get their church members to vote republican.. Even so far as every catholic priest was suppose to read a letter from the Pope condemning the Obamacare mandate for birth control, did this political commercial against Obama (at least some catholic organization).. anyway very political.. Then about a month later when they figured out the Republicans planned to cut aid to the poor, and expected churches and other non-profits to pick up the slack.. Which they said was ludicrous they could only do so much.. Suddenly, all went quiet on the political front for Catholics, accept a statement to vote how you saw fit..

 

As stated The Pope isn't political, but he has yet to say anything that has angered the Liberals, and plenty to anger the Conservatives.. It is what he chooses to spotlight as important, and what he chooses to not spotlight.. Same with our IH.. He might not fight for a chance to marry a same-sex couple, but he doesn't see it as the cross to die on either.. That is good enough for me.

[EmberMike]

...Liberal ideas and Religion are not the same mix as vinegar and water.. Perhaps in YOUR religion' date=' where YOU live it is, but not every where..[/quote']

 

True. I'm both Liberal and Catholic. I don't see them as contradicting each other. Some people do, but it's just different interpretations of the faith. There are always elements of all religions that the majority of the practitioners ignore or modify. We don't accept slavery any more evem though you could point to the bible for justification of the practice. Nor do we largely accept underage marriages, in the US at least. It's socially unacceptable, even though religiously it could be permitted.

 

So some folks want to say that there is something in the bible that tells me I should look unfavorably on gay people. But my faith, my personal convictions and my religious beliefs, they all tell me otherwise.

[moosetracker]

...Liberal ideas and Religion are not the same mix as vinegar and water.. Perhaps in YOUR religion' date=' where YOU live it is, but not every where..[/quote']

 

True. I'm both Liberal and Catholic. I don't see them as contradicting each other. Some people do, but it's just different interpretations of the faith. There are always elements of all religions that the majority of the practitioners ignore or modify. We don't accept slavery any more evem though you could point to the bible for justification of the practice. Nor do we largely accept underage marriages, in the US at least. It's socially unacceptable, even though religiously it could be permitted.

 

So some folks want to say that there is something in the bible that tells me I should look unfavorably on gay people. But my faith, my personal convictions and my religious beliefs, they all tell me otherwise.

Something has gone looney tooney with the posts again.. Sorry Ember, not really a comment on your post, just didn't want to start a new post.. The marker for the Thread is stuck at my last post (the comments haven't registered a new post for a few weeks.. But Sentinel & EmberMikes' post have not registered as a new post to this thread and they should have.. Is anyone else getting the same thing or is this a personal computer problem of mine?

[Rick_in_CA]

In my opinion' date=' scouting can’t survive liberalism because the program is wrapped around encouraging individual values based from one source, which is God. Doesn't matter which, god, but god is the one unchangable standard the Oath and Law are held grounded.[/quote']

 

I completely disagree.

 

The BSA is “completely non sectarian†and refuses to define what “Duty to God†means. That is left to the scout, his/her family and religious leaders (as it should be). The BSA was created as an American version of scouting, and as such it reflects American values such as pluralism.

 

There is a huge spectrum of religions and beliefs out there. Some are highly organized, some are not. Some are new, some are ancient. Some have one god, some have many, some have none. Some have something that could be called is a “godâ€Â, but is very different from what most of us think of when we hear the word “godâ€Â. Some religions are agnostic or atheistic in character (go read the actual definitions of those words). For the BSA to be true to American values of non sectarianism, it cannot define or require anything of a religious nature except in the most vague sense since there are so many different beliefs out there (go read up on what “prayer†is in different religions - it can be very different).

 

When I was a scout (mumble, mumble years ago), I was in a troop chartered by a public school. In fact, public schools where the largest single group of chartered orgs. In my troop religion wasn’t something that came up very often. Over time in my unit, we had christians, jews, muslims, hindus and “undecidedâ€Â. In all my camping trips, I don’t remember a single scouts own. At summer camp, there were some units that were very religious, but most weren’t. I remember one of our neighboring troops had a scout master that was an open atheists (open in that he didn’t hide it - not that he ran around preaching “god doesn’t existâ€Â). The BSA was a very diverse place. The BSA was about camping, leadership and instilling American values (and of course having fun).

 

That was before the religious right (the “I’m sick of hearing about separation of church and state†and “atheists shouldn’t be considered citizens†crowd) started it’s take over.

 

It’s interesting that the new Trail Life organization was created out the recent BSA fight about gays. But their own rules on gays are basically the same as the new BSA ones (except they allow gay adult leaders). The real difference, is they are overtly christian. Which is what I believe the fight was really about.

[Eagledad]

I don't think you give yourself enough credit Moose, you can hardly say that your post are kind to conservatives. It is clear that you think yourself better, instead of different. I also get a kick out of liberals not being angry at this concervative Pope. Must be his delivery because his grounded principles are the same. But in the premise of your post, if religion were taken out of the oath and law, then what would anchor the traits of the law to have any continuity to the vision of making moral decision makers? How could an organization maintain integrity if the values are based on the ground level of the leader who looks no farther than teaching boys the skills that will get them to the next rank? Like any great movement, the foundation of its vision has to come from something greating than man reacting to emotions of the moment, otherwise it follows changes in the wind. As soon as the population looses the respect of the scouting's values, it looses its mystic to something better than just a club that goes camping. Repeating the oath, law, even the Pledge of Allegiance will fade away as old time rituals that hold little meaning. Go visit the YMCA if you doubt me. I'm not saying it won't happen, I'm just saying it won't be a values program when it does. By they way, I've heard this is exaclty what happened to the Canadian Scouts. Barry

[Eagledad]

...Liberal ideas and Religion are not the same mix as vinegar and water.. Perhaps in YOUR religion' date=' where YOU live it is, but not every where..[/quote']

 

True. I'm both Liberal and Catholic. I don't see them as contradicting each other. Some people do, but it's just different interpretations of the faith. There are always elements of all religions that the majority of the practitioners ignore or modify. We don't accept slavery any more evem though you could point to the bible for justification of the practice. Nor do we largely accept underage marriages, in the US at least. It's socially unacceptable, even though religiously it could be permitted.

 

So some folks want to say that there is something in the bible that tells me I should look unfavorably on gay people. But my faith, my personal convictions and my religious beliefs, they all tell me otherwise.

Nice post EmberMike. For a little balance, the bible does not justify or condone slavery, it only teaches godly behavior for people in that situation. It does not contradict any of Jesus other teachings, instead it supports them, I don't understand your personal stand of homosexuality, but maybe you don't have a good biblical understanding of sin or how Christians should behave around sinners. Read the bible and you might be surprised that you aren't so liberal. Barry