Updates to youth protection training

[fred johnson]

I never meant to start a discussion of who abuses or orientation or other.

 

I just meant that my Virtus training was more educational about the nature of abuse and BSA was more focused on policies and procedures. It seemed that both programs could benefit from the other. The Virtus training needs some focus on practices to remove opportunity. BSA training needs more inclusion about the nature of abuse and who abuses. ... without getting into orientation arguments.

[Scouter99]

I also talk about the nature of the youth' date=' the environment and male volunteers. (Sorry .. there is a double standard ... my attennea go up if I see a male volunteer too focused on picking up kids) [/quote']

 

My idiot antennae just went up.

While well-meaning but misguided folks like you have been giving me funny looks for daring to be a man working with kids, 3 women in my district have been arrested for screwing students.

 

Your mindset is inherently flawed because it presupposes falsehoods and overemphasizes sex abuse thereby increasing opportunity for abuse.

[moosetracker]

Fred – You didn’t start the twist, dcsimmons took us down this curve. Most likely inevitable for about six more months until those frightened by this change settle down to the fact that little will change. About the Catholic vs BSA youth protection. I was always told that the Catholic Church took the BSA YPT as a model, I was disappointed when I saw the Catholic version.. It was a poor interpretation.. Again check out the videos.. One was titled “A Time to Tell†not sure if that was the BS or the CS one.

Eagledad – “That doesn't mean the BSA is more of a risk with gay molesters than other youth centered organizations, but it certainly isn't less either.â€Â

True Eagledad, but the gay molesters will be a fraction of those that are married (with/without kids), divorced, or single heterosexuals. Again, molesters are not aroused by the sex (boy or girl) but on overpowering someone weaker then themselves. Most are neither homosexual or heterosexual, but they take on a backstory that is least suspicious.. That will not be those who backstory is of an openly homosexual person.

 

[Scouter99]

Fred – You didn’t start the twist, dcsimmons took us down this curve. Most likely inevitable for about six more months until those frightened by this change settle down to the fact that little will change. About the Catholic vs BSA youth protection. I was always told that the Catholic Church took the BSA YPT as a model, I was disappointed when I saw the Catholic version.. It was a poor interpretation.. Again check out the videos.. One was titled “A Time to Tell†not sure if that was the BS or the CS one.

Eagledad – “That doesn't mean the BSA is more of a risk with gay molesters than other youth centered organizations, but it certainly isn't less either.â€Â

True Eagledad, but the gay molesters will be a fraction of those that are married (with/without kids), divorced, or single heterosexuals. Again, molesters are not aroused by the sex (boy or girl) but on overpowering someone weaker then themselves. Most are neither homosexual or heterosexual, but they take on a backstory that is least suspicious.. That will not be those who backstory is of an openly homosexual person.

The difficulty with an absolute statement like "molesters aren't aroused by the sex [of the victim]" is what do you mean by "molester"? Molester means everything and nothing.

As I've noted in issues/politics before, "pedophile" is a specific diagnosis with a specific definition--it is exclusive to people who are sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children 13 or younger. Regardless of how people use it in the vernacular, that's what it means.

A pubescent person might be a minor and a child, but whether they're 10 (as many girls and increasing numbers of boys are) or 17, they're not attractive to pedophiles because of their sexual development. Now terms get sticky, and your absolute statement is absolutely false:

A person who just wants sex or to overpower people might abuse or rape a pubescent male or female without regard to their sex. You could call them a molester or a rapist.

However, a man who is engaging in sex acts with pubescent males under 18 is engaging in homosexual sex acts, not pedophile acts. If in his everyday life he's dating women or married or whatever, then maybe he's picking boys not because they're boys but because boys are more eager to engage in sex acts, and you might call him a heterosexual molester or rapist, and his actions are homosexual (or homoerotic) by convenience. But if he is attracted to/selecting those males because they are males, then he is gay (and the ladies are a cover) or bisexual. If the abuser is a female, same thing.

There is a growing movement to label people who are attracted to pubescent people "ephebophiles" (after the Greek term for the youth in a man-teen relationship) and regard them as having a sickness like pedophiles.

All of these terms also presume victimhood, which is not necessarily the case in every situation especially as the minor approaches 18 and the adult is closer to 18--and there are cases in the Ineligible Volunteer files where the expelled leader was younger than 20 and the scout was 16+. Again, teens and young adults do force themselves on younger teens and children, in which case they're an abuser/molester/rapist, but the hard line at 18 as a legal concept does not change who people are attracted to within a close age range. A law can state that a 16-yr-old cannot give legal consent to an 18-yr-old, but that does not mean that actual consent was not given, and the 18-yr-old might be a "criminal" but that doesn't automatically mean "molester."

 

Despite all these actualities, 90% of people refer to a simplistic and wrong dichotomy of molester-not molester. I've heard boys in my troop goes so far as to call junior or senior classmates who are dating a freshman or sophomore "pedophiles" and that attitude is pretty much the norm, but it's ridiculous.

 

You see quickly how this issue is complicated by the patchwork of vernacular, biological, medical, and legal terms and definitions. But people who engage in sex acts with pubescent people most definitely do select their victims/partners based on their sex.

[walk in the woods]

Fred – You didn’t start the twist, dcsimmons took us down this curve. Most likely inevitable for about six more months until those frightened by this change settle down to the fact that little will change. About the Catholic vs BSA youth protection. I was always told that the Catholic Church took the BSA YPT as a model, I was disappointed when I saw the Catholic version.. It was a poor interpretation.. Again check out the videos.. One was titled “A Time to Tell†not sure if that was the BS or the CS one.

Eagledad – “That doesn't mean the BSA is more of a risk with gay molesters than other youth centered organizations, but it certainly isn't less either.â€Â

True Eagledad, but the gay molesters will be a fraction of those that are married (with/without kids), divorced, or single heterosexuals. Again, molesters are not aroused by the sex (boy or girl) but on overpowering someone weaker then themselves. Most are neither homosexual or heterosexual, but they take on a backstory that is least suspicious.. That will not be those who backstory is of an openly homosexual person.

Sorry Moose but I reject your assertion that I started anything. The OP asked if there was any news about potential updates to YPT. I responded with a link to a BSA source and a quote from the pertinent portion of the FAQ. Where you lead the conversation from there is on you and you alone. I simply and directly answered a question, end of story.

[fred johnson]

moosetracker ... I don't remember the details of "A Time To Tell" enough other than to remember thinking I don't want my kids to see it and I definitely don't want other parents pointing fingers at me making kids see it. As for making other adult leaders see it, I'd have to watch it. I think most would not sit through yet another youth protection training.

 

Catholic church training needs to better enumerate practices to remove opportunity for abuse.

 

BSA training needs to better teach what to watch out for and what to be concerned about ... AND to teach some of the statistics about it and maybe a few of the interviews by past abusers that the Catholic church training has. Those videos are very helpful.

[Sentinel947]

Does anybody object if I move this to issues and politics? I think it clearly belongs there now.

[moosetracker]

Fred – You didn’t start the twist, dcsimmons took us down this curve. Most likely inevitable for about six more months until those frightened by this change settle down to the fact that little will change. About the Catholic vs BSA youth protection. I was always told that the Catholic Church took the BSA YPT as a model, I was disappointed when I saw the Catholic version.. It was a poor interpretation.. Again check out the videos.. One was titled “A Time to Tell†not sure if that was the BS or the CS one.

Eagledad – “That doesn't mean the BSA is more of a risk with gay molesters than other youth centered organizations, but it certainly isn't less either.â€Â

True Eagledad, but the gay molesters will be a fraction of those that are married (with/without kids), divorced, or single heterosexuals. Again, molesters are not aroused by the sex (boy or girl) but on overpowering someone weaker then themselves. Most are neither homosexual or heterosexual, but they take on a backstory that is least suspicious.. That will not be those who backstory is of an openly homosexual person.

Scouter99 - Sorry - not an absolute. I did not use ALWAYS.. It is a statement which refers to majority of the time.. Yes, sometimes they think they love them, but most times they are using kindness not because they love them, but with children it is another form of control.

 

dcsimmons - All I saw was a statement to the fact there was no changes coming due to the same-sex attraction.. They may be making changes otherwise, just no changes for this.. Before this the conversation wasn't dealing with homosexuals.. So perhaps, it was not your intent, but yours was what started the conversation down this path.

 

But.. I would like to restate for Scouter99's benefit.. The statement that you quoted..

 

 

"This change in membership standards is not a youth protection issue. To consider it a youth protection issue would lead one to believe that sexual abuse and victimization is considered inherent to same-sex attraction. This is not the case."

 

Again they Did not use ALWAYS, or maybe here it would be a statement of NEVER.. But like me, they are stating pretty much what I stated.. So go pick your fight with BSA..

 

Also, I will still restate this fact. The pedophile (molester) wants to be in a position that other adults trust them with children. Therefore they will not gain your trust by being a openly gay person.. Even if gay, they will be in the closet.. You know those BSA Adult leaders we have always welcomed into the troop..So you can currently worry about that, even though right now you are lulling yourself into a false sense of security that openly homosexual adult leaders are currently not accepted.

[moosetracker]

moosetracker ... I don't remember the details of "A Time To Tell" enough other than to remember thinking I don't want my kids to see it and I definitely don't want other parents pointing fingers at me making kids see it. As for making other adult leaders see it, I'd have to watch it. I think most would not sit through yet another youth protection training.

 

Catholic church training needs to better enumerate practices to remove opportunity for abuse.

 

BSA training needs to better teach what to watch out for and what to be concerned about ... AND to teach some of the statistics about it and maybe a few of the interviews by past abusers that the Catholic church training has. Those videos are very helpful.

If it is the CS version, then yes. It I felt the same way. The BS version wasn't so bad. It had something to do with older youths can get references and inuendos where as younger children will not. I am not recommending it for the CS.. I kindof agree.. I would rather they just put in on their on-line education so parents can view it and decide for themselves.. What I was recommending is that for the adult leader, viewing that would give you the piece the YPT training lacked.

[moosetracker]

Does anybody object if I move this to issues and politics? I think it clearly belongs there now.

Probably.. If it hadn't wound down the homosexual fears and misconception route. Fred & I would have probably done 4 or 5 posts and it would have ended as a short thread.. The homosexual topic may cause it to get longer.. Although it has been rehashed multi times before.

[fred johnson]

Does anybody object if I move this to issues and politics? I think it clearly belongs there now.

I must admit that I object. "Issues and Politics" tends to be for noise and things generally outside scouting.

 

I don't think this belongs in that group.

 

BSA youth protection gives procedures and practical examples without teaching what to look for or the nature of abuse.

 

The topic is about improving the already good BSA youth protection training by adding content that helps communicate the nature of abuse. I'm really not trying to be political. It's a real hole in BSA youth protection training.

 

A ready example is a fairly recent scoutmaster who now and then would give scouts back rubs. Parents and other leaders thought it was weird but no one triggered the alarm for years. Yet, this is a sign of grooming a victim. In addition to teaching about certain types of touch being used to break down barriers and groom victims, the Catholic training taught about abuse is the real reluctance of people to report. It's an identified pattern in abuse. The reluctance is driven by denial and not wanting to raise a false accusation against friends, relatives and generally people who have volunteered and are perceived as exceptionally good people. Much of the Virtus training I received was about getting over the real and natural reluctance to report. I must admit .. I remember interviews of the parents of scouts in that troop and most of them said at one point that they always wondered over the years. I must admit that I got really upset that no one invested enough to learn more. Especially as it was 2010, not 1980 or 1990.

 

BSA training is good in policies, practices and situational role play. But BSA training lacks when raising awareness about who abuses (close friends, relatives, the good guys) and does not invest enough about getting over the barrier to report. The reluctance to reporting is a barrier that is real.

 

it is a short coming in BSA youth protection training that needs addressing.

 

BSA YPT is good. I just hope it takes the next step and improves further.

[jpstodwftexas]

With all due respect Jpstodwftexas' date=' when I read statements that are incorrect wrong like no child molesters caught in the BSA or 99% of child molesters are married heterosexuals with kids, how can we trust any insight you give us in the future? That doesn't mean the BSA is more of a risk with gay molesters than other youth centered organizations, but it certainly isn't less either. Using the word homophobic only shows your bias on the subject and a lack of confidence of supporting your opinion in an intellectual discussion. Youth protection isn't the real issue of gay adult leaders anyway, it's gay adult role models. Role models have a real influence on youth. How does the BSA convince parents that a gay influence isn't dangerous to their sons. That is the elephant in the room. Barry[/quote']

 

 

Hummm I wonder where you get I am Incorrect in the Information about the Child Molesters I have dealt with in the last 10+ years?

Have you talked to any of them?

Have you reviewed their Court Records?

Their Visitation Lists?

 

I never said there are not Child Molesters Caught or Suspected to Be in BSA, Just I have Never Encountered one.

I see their Visitation List, I see their Convictions, I know their Families, I see their Court Records.

 

I have had to take more in depth Training on Pedophiles I dare say than you have. I don't make up the stats, call some experts and see what they say about the stats or Course Materials...Here are some of the Qouted Sources Material I have been Lectured On..every year for the last 10 years..

 

"Pedophilia and Homosexually are two different things. The truth is most child molesters and those who are into Child pornography are Heterosexual men not gay men. Most of these Heterosexual men are completely straight when it comes to their adult sexual interest, but can be either be Bi Gay or straight when it comes to their sexual interest in children, most are Bisexual when it comes to their sexual interest for children. Of course there are Gay men who also have a sexual interest in children but this has to do with being a Pedophile not being Gay if being gay was the reason why little boys are sexually molested then all little girls who are sexually molested would be so because most men are Heterosexual and not Gay."

 

"In 1992, alarmed over claims made during a campaign for an anti-gay state constitutional amendment in Colorado, two physicians reviewed every case of suspected child molestation evaluated at Children's Hospital in Denver over a one-year period. Of the 269 cases determined to involve molestation by an adult, only two of the perpetrators could be identified as gay or lesbian. The researchers concluded that the risk of child sexual abuse by an identifiably gay or lesbian person was between zero and 3.1%, and that the risk of such abuse by the heterosexual partner of a relative was over 100 times greater."

 

"Homosexuals only make up 7% of pedophilia cases. Also, most men who molest boys are interested in the feminine qualities of the boys and are straight. Most of us think that a child molester is a rather slimy individual( a stranger in town, sitting in his car near a schoolyard, luring children with candy. Our findings reveal that, on the contrary, the child molester is not a stranger, but is someone we know well. He often is a man we trust, a man our children trust. . . . As a rule, he is married and has children of his own whom he usually does not molest. He is almost always a well‑respected, even loved, member of his community. He is often an active Christian who is involved in his church."

 

Please Tell The State Of Texas that they are spreading False Information and to Stop Making Us Sit through Course every year just So They can say they Train us..

 

Can you provide sources to the Contrary?

 

I was not the One Who Introduced Homosexuality into the discussion in the First Place

[moosetracker]

With all due respect Jpstodwftexas' date=' when I read statements that are incorrect wrong like no child molesters caught in the BSA or 99% of child molesters are married heterosexuals with kids, how can we trust any insight you give us in the future? That doesn't mean the BSA is more of a risk with gay molesters than other youth centered organizations, but it certainly isn't less either. Using the word homophobic only shows your bias on the subject and a lack of confidence of supporting your opinion in an intellectual discussion. Youth protection isn't the real issue of gay adult leaders anyway, it's gay adult role models. Role models have a real influence on youth. How does the BSA convince parents that a gay influence isn't dangerous to their sons. That is the elephant in the room. Barry[/quote']

 

 

Hummm I wonder where you get I am Incorrect in the Information about the Child Molesters I have dealt with in the last 10+ years?

Have you talked to any of them?

Have you reviewed their Court Records?

Their Visitation Lists?

 

I never said there are not Child Molesters Caught or Suspected to Be in BSA, Just I have Never Encountered one.

I see their Visitation List, I see their Convictions, I know their Families, I see their Court Records.

 

I have had to take more in depth Training on Pedophiles I dare say than you have. I don't make up the stats, call some experts and see what they say about the stats or Course Materials...Here are some of the Qouted Sources Material I have been Lectured On..every year for the last 10 years..

 

"Pedophilia and Homosexually are two different things. The truth is most child molesters and those who are into Child pornography are Heterosexual men not gay men. Most of these Heterosexual men are completely straight when it comes to their adult sexual interest, but can be either be Bi Gay or straight when it comes to their sexual interest in children, most are Bisexual when it comes to their sexual interest for children. Of course there are Gay men who also have a sexual interest in children but this has to do with being a Pedophile not being Gay if being gay was the reason why little boys are sexually molested then all little girls who are sexually molested would be so because most men are Heterosexual and not Gay."

 

"In 1992, alarmed over claims made during a campaign for an anti-gay state constitutional amendment in Colorado, two physicians reviewed every case of suspected child molestation evaluated at Children's Hospital in Denver over a one-year period. Of the 269 cases determined to involve molestation by an adult, only two of the perpetrators could be identified as gay or lesbian. The researchers concluded that the risk of child sexual abuse by an identifiably gay or lesbian person was between zero and 3.1%, and that the risk of such abuse by the heterosexual partner of a relative was over 100 times greater."

 

"Homosexuals only make up 7% of pedophilia cases. Also, most men who molest boys are interested in the feminine qualities of the boys and are straight. Most of us think that a child molester is a rather slimy individual( a stranger in town, sitting in his car near a schoolyard, luring children with candy. Our findings reveal that, on the contrary, the child molester is not a stranger, but is someone we know well. He often is a man we trust, a man our children trust. . . . As a rule, he is married and has children of his own whom he usually does not molest. He is almost always a well‑respected, even loved, member of his community. He is often an active Christian who is involved in his church."

 

Please Tell The State Of Texas that they are spreading False Information and to Stop Making Us Sit through Course every year just So They can say they Train us..

 

Can you provide sources to the Contrary?

 

I was not the One Who Introduced Homosexuality into the discussion in the First Place

jpstodwftexas - should have known by your moniker you were from Texas but the whole thing just is a jumble of letters most times.. Anyway after reading that you floored me that his came out of the State of Texas.. Now, Texas being mainly Republican, that says a lot, because if they could tie pedophiles with homosexuals they would have ! Wow

 

Eagledad.. JP got you good with that one.. Besides the fact as he stated, he was talking personal experience, and you totally rejected his personal experience, like you know better what JP's personal experience is more then he himself does.

 

That was good!

[jpstodwftexas]

I don't know about any of My Former Scout Masters Sexual Preferences because we Never discussed it, Nor Did any on them Every Discuss sex with me...Sex is not part of the Scouting Curriculum and it should never be.

I refuse to discuss sex with any youth Scouter and I refuse to have Sexually Oriented Discussions on Scout Outings with Adults.

Sex has no place in Scouting.

Youth Protection is Fine as it is. The Basic Principal is Sound...

Two Deep Leadership...NO ONE ON ONE CONTACT...Beware of Possible Situations and Report

 

As for Role Models>..They Wore Scout Uniforms Clean and Properly, They Demonstrated Skills..They were Polite, They Demonstrated the 12 Principal Attributes of Scout...but never Sexual Orientation

[packsaddle]

I've been reading the posts. I think it is OK to leave it here until it clearly belongs in I&P....IMHO.