Numbers of Scouts in the troop

[Eagledad]

Funny thing is..Scouters want to go and Stay where they have fun and are Comfortable...Honestly as a Scout I went where I felt I was welcome..I did not care if it was "Boy" ran or "Adult" run.. I cared for Structure..when I moved back to Wichita Falls Texas...I visited several Troops

 

First Troop ( a Large Troop) I visited I was sat down and Shown My Schedule to Eagle...planned out to the Minute already. Never Introduced to the Boys

Second Troop (another Large Troop) It was a Rabble..no Structure..Boys running everywhere

3rd Troop ( a Small One)..It was Structured..They were well mannered, I was sent out after Opening to visit with the Boys..The Boys learned from the Elders and were respectful. They had Awards on Walls, They participated in all Council Events..They never Missed an Event

 

Needless to say I picked the Third Troop ...Troop 6

 

Scouts go to the Best Troops they stay by Choice

If a Troop gets a reputation of "selecting" scouts and Turning away Scouts they will run themselves down to a point where they will fail.

Over the Years a Certain Troop here was Know as an Eagle Factory..They were Known to Hand Select Scouts based "Eagle" Material, They Did not Attend Council Events, Now They are a Shell of a Troop they once were.

Reputation is the biggest risk of setting a limit to size. Eventual failure is pretty typical. But Bases program appears to be a stricter than average program anyway with the attendance requirements and appears to be working for them. The success of the program is a direct relation of the SM. It is very likely that Bases replacement will have different results. I've done this awhile and it is likely that Bases replacement will not have as good of success either. I would not recommend Bases program style to other SMs, but it does seem to work for him. Hard to say Bases replacement will have a mess to clean up. The future depends on Bases pride and humility. But he is off to a good start and that is rare. Hard to mess with success. Barry

[qwazse]

I'm pleased to see this discussion, because my Troop has had a similar trajectory to Basement's, growing from 11 to 33 in 2 years. Our internal discussion has revolved around similar issues - how big do we want to be? My personal view is that I don't want to be walking around at Summer Camp, see a Scout and not be sure if he's one of mine. I can see the Troop at 50 before that happens (and I think recruiting this spring will take us over 40).

 

However, I really struggle with my primary issue, which is this: what is my moral responsibility to boys in Scouting in general? It seems to me the most likely result of locking down your numbers and turning boys away is that boys who otherwise would get the benefit of Scouting will either never join the program or will quit after only a short time. As mentioned just above, boys choose a Troop based on a variety of reasons. Your Troop may be perfect for a boy, and none other will do. You have failed any boy you turn away who never joins a Troop.

I'd take Stosh's approach and have the Fire Inspector give you the capacity of your troop's meeting place. That's your upper limit for totals of youth and adults. If you are reaching that volume, you should have a couple of capable adults to train. They'll get so good that some of them will spin off a new unit, and you'll be back under your maximum in less than a year!

[Basementdweller]

Bottom line here folks

 

We will take the Web crossovers from Little Brother Pack regardless of troop size, they average 3-6 per year. I will plan the troop looking at the webelo numbers coming up.

 

We will enforce attendance, good riddance to the casual scouts, the ones that cherry pick events or camp only.

 

I have spoken to neighboring SM's to let them know what I am doing and ask permission to refer boys to them. They agree that more units are better than a single mega troop in the area. One expressed concerns about receiving our cast offs the other was glad to have them. I assured both that any contacts would be referred to them without ever meeting or judging the lad, We would not cherry pick boys.

Blake.....I am interested in active boys,

 

You know that if you have a troop of 20 with 50% attendance you functionally have one patrol. So instead of having a troop of 70 to have my troop of 35 active boys..........

 

 

I remove the dead wood.

 

If your saying that I am cherry picking boys with good attendance than yes your probably right.

[Basementdweller]

What confuses me is the mega troops are SM ego trips, yet Basement's smaller troop isn't. But HE took the bulls by the horn and with other adults rescued this poor pittance of a troop and built is by hand into what it is today? They have rules, regs and have the very best of the boys.

 

Why do I hear adult ego running throughout the conversation? Where are the comments about how the boys are taking over and making it a boy-led program? The closest thing to boy-led might be in the program, but the words WE and OUR always crops up.

 

I remember once being told that a pet-peeve is something others do that we don't like about ourselves.

 

"The program is what ever the boys want it to be.....We shoot, canoe, hike, backpack, rappell, bike, swim, provide service to our community." Shouldn't it be THEY shoot, canoe, hike, backpack, etc.???

 

Now forums don't always give full indication of the meaning of words, but if I was UC I would be a bit concerned without further information.

 

I left a "boy-led, patrol-method" troop that was the best in the council, just ask any of the adults running it.

 

Stosh

Blake, so you never went on a scout outing and participated in the activity????? If I drive the boys to the range to shoot, I will shoot as well, how about rapelling, I don't like heights but I will do it with the boys.

 

Your being ridiculous

[Basementdweller]

Funny thing is..Scouters want to go and Stay where they have fun and are Comfortable...Honestly as a Scout I went where I felt I was welcome..I did not care if it was "Boy" ran or "Adult" run.. I cared for Structure..when I moved back to Wichita Falls Texas...I visited several Troops

 

First Troop ( a Large Troop) I visited I was sat down and Shown My Schedule to Eagle...planned out to the Minute already. Never Introduced to the Boys

Second Troop (another Large Troop) It was a Rabble..no Structure..Boys running everywhere

3rd Troop ( a Small One)..It was Structured..They were well mannered, I was sent out after Opening to visit with the Boys..The Boys learned from the Elders and were respectful. They had Awards on Walls, They participated in all Council Events..They never Missed an Event

 

Needless to say I picked the Third Troop ...Troop 6

 

Scouts go to the Best Troops they stay by Choice

If a Troop gets a reputation of "selecting" scouts and Turning away Scouts they will run themselves down to a point where they will fail.

Over the Years a Certain Troop here was Know as an Eagle Factory..They were Known to Hand Select Scouts based "Eagle" Material, They Did not Attend Council Events, Now They are a Shell of a Troop they once were.

I don't view the program as successful.

 

Until my SPL runs the complete meeting and outing for the month it will still be a work in progress. Still a lot of mentoring going on behind the scenes and at the meetings.

[Basementdweller]

I'm pleased to see this discussion, because my Troop has had a similar trajectory to Basement's, growing from 11 to 33 in 2 years. Our internal discussion has revolved around similar issues - how big do we want to be? My personal view is that I don't want to be walking around at Summer Camp, see a Scout and not be sure if he's one of mine. I can see the Troop at 50 before that happens (and I think recruiting this spring will take us over 40).

 

However, I really struggle with my primary issue, which is this: what is my moral responsibility to boys in Scouting in general? It seems to me the most likely result of locking down your numbers and turning boys away is that boys who otherwise would get the benefit of Scouting will either never join the program or will quit after only a short time. As mentioned just above, boys choose a Troop based on a variety of reasons. Your Troop may be perfect for a boy, and none other will do. You have failed any boy you turn away who never joins a Troop.

I have yet to tell a scout that we are full and cannot accept his membership application. Who knows that may never happen.

[Basementdweller]

Agreed, there must be a history behind the "rule" that a mega troop = scouter ego.

 

To answer basement's question - YES, there most certainly is/could be advantages to a larger troop.

You have seen them......giant tandem axle troop trailer towed by the bus.

 

The trailer has a list of sponsors and in giant 3 foot tall letters Troop 123 where eagles soar. followed by the eagle list by year......with an average of 10-15 per year.

 

Or the folks here that take the airplanes here and there

 

ahhh, no thanks.

[Stosh]

Agreed, there must be a history behind the "rule" that a mega troop = scouter ego.

 

To answer basement's question - YES, there most certainly is/could be advantages to a larger troop.

I've seen the same thing happened to small troops. Size of the troops has nothing to do with the SM's ego.

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

Eagledad, are you kidding?

 

"The problem with your philosophy stosh is that boys don't start or build troops. A troop is only as boy run as the vision of the the adults driving the program."

 

Adults do not drive the program, and the vision isn't ours. As adult leaders our job is not to come up with the vision, but rather to provide the youth with the tools needed to make the vision a reality.

 

Stosh, I know the difference between youth ran, and not, don't worry about that one. It's the whole providing the tools thing, maybe I was providing some instructions on usage. In the end it's all up to the scouts, but the training, and personal growth, we provide/foster, does shape the youth leaders who make the decisions.

 

 

[Eagledad]

Eagledad, are you kidding?

 

"The problem with your philosophy stosh is that boys don't start or build troops. A troop is only as boy run as the vision of the the adults driving the program."

 

Adults do not drive the program, and the vision isn't ours. As adult leaders our job is not to come up with the vision, but rather to provide the youth with the tools needed to make the vision a reality.

 

Stosh, I know the difference between youth ran, and not, don't worry about that one. It's the whole providing the tools thing, maybe I was providing some instructions on usage. In the end it's all up to the scouts, but the training, and personal growth, we provide/foster, does shape the youth leaders who make the decisions.

 

I'm not kidding OX, 99% of troops wouldn't exists without adults. Barry

[perdidochas]

Eagledad, are you kidding?

 

"The problem with your philosophy stosh is that boys don't start or build troops. A troop is only as boy run as the vision of the the adults driving the program."

 

Adults do not drive the program, and the vision isn't ours. As adult leaders our job is not to come up with the vision, but rather to provide the youth with the tools needed to make the vision a reality.

 

Stosh, I know the difference between youth ran, and not, don't worry about that one. It's the whole providing the tools thing, maybe I was providing some instructions on usage. In the end it's all up to the scouts, but the training, and personal growth, we provide/foster, does shape the youth leaders who make the decisions.

 

I'm with EagleDad. A troop cannot survive much less thrive without an adult with vision. There is only so much that the boys can do. This world doesn't allow minors to do a whole lot.

[Stosh]

Eagledad, are you kidding?

 

"The problem with your philosophy stosh is that boys don't start or build troops. A troop is only as boy run as the vision of the the adults driving the program."

 

Adults do not drive the program, and the vision isn't ours. As adult leaders our job is not to come up with the vision, but rather to provide the youth with the tools needed to make the vision a reality.

 

Stosh, I know the difference between youth ran, and not, don't worry about that one. It's the whole providing the tools thing, maybe I was providing some instructions on usage. In the end it's all up to the scouts, but the training, and personal growth, we provide/foster, does shape the youth leaders who make the decisions.

 

We might be mincing words here, but a troop with an adult vision goal is not the same as a boy vision goal. Adult vision issues seem to lead to what Basement was referring to as SM ego driven and that can apply to a troop of any size.

 

I will concede that an adult goal of boy-led is an exception to the rule, but those troops are far and few between.

 

Perdidochas: The WORLD is not the same as US society. There are far more cultures in the world that have adults well before the US gets around to recognizing them. As a matter of fact most cultures do not have the "teen" adolescent years. The US culture/society doesn't allow arbitrarily determined "minors" to do a whole lot. Just try and remember, the youngest Congressional Medal of Honor awardee was 12 years old.

 

Don't compare our myopic view of the world as "normal".

 

Stosh

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

The key to not only understanding what I’m saying, but how a troop should work, is shockingly found in the SM Handbook. Where each SPL administration starts is with a meeting with the SM, where the SPL’s and the SM’s vision ‘s are forged into a “a shared vision†which becomes the roadmap for the SPL’s term.

 

Where I think we’re splitting hairs is the Scoutmaster’s vision is not for the SPL’s term of office, but is the unit’s long term plan, and one that includes the Charter Org’s expectations, and that of the committee. I did not explain all of this before, as I assumed anyone engaging in this conversation had completed scoutmaster’s training.

 

Before anyone suggests otherwise, this does work. Throughout my tenure as SM I did this with each new SPL, and delivery of a written vision statement was required to be considered for election. The “Shared Vision†statement became the focal point of The Troop Leader Training (yes I know it has a new name don’t recall it offhand). After Troop Leader Training our officers would have a lock in where there would create an outline of how they were going to attempt to accomplish each point of the “shared vision†statement; this outline was used as a roadmap for the PLC over the SPL’s term.

 

The troop I was Scoutmaster of grew to be the largest in our district, as well as the most active. We were, and remain, fully youth ran. All adults do other than provide the youth with the tools they need, is sign checks, and drive scouts to events .. of yea, we do the Tour Plans.

 

I’ve successfully used the same formula of vision statements, training, and an officer created outline that becomes the roadmap as an OA advisor, Crew Advisor, Roundtable Commissioner, and ADC in charge of commissioner training. It works every time, so long as the statements are delivered prior to being allowed to assume an office, and on the date of the assuming office the training and lockin dates are set.

 

This is a program which follows a mantra like this nation: a program of the scouts, for the scouts, by the scouts.

 

[qwazse]

... fully youth ran. All adults do ... sign ... and drive ... do the Tour Plans.

 

My opinion -- (not nationals): we're only mostly youth-run as long as adults are doing the Tour Plans.

 

Not too bothered by that. Fact is, when you have driven youth, adults will rally around to support them. Sometimes that support comes by way of running the bureaucracy on their behalf.

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

I've never considered having the youth do the tour plans, but I don't see any reason they couldn't.