Numbers of Scouts in the troop

[Basementdweller]

So there is no benefit to mega Troops other that Ego Stroking the adults involved??????

 

 

[qwazse]

So there is no benefit to mega Troops other that Ego Stroking the adults involved??????

 

I think the mission of the CO comes into play here. If it is to attract masses of kids (for whatever reason) then it will encourage the SMs' to become more like a management team with the ASMs handling a lot of the SMCs. If it is to provide opportunities a select group of dedicated kids (again, for whatever reason) it will encourage the SM's to become more like counselors with a certain "caseload."

 

Obviously, not all of us can flex into both roles. So, that would mean some units would have to swap out leaders as the size of a troop changes. In fact, when our unit was numbering in the 40's we did change SMs fairly frequently. Now that we are smaller, our current SM is very happy to stick around (his boy graduated this year). And, it is kind of nice not to have to drag that trailer everywhere!

[Eagledad]

So there is no benefit to mega Troops other that Ego Stroking the adults involved??????

 

Oh for Pete sakes Base, you can't just ask a question and expect a one size fits all answer. Run the best program you can and deal with the numbers that works best for you. Some are capable of doing that with large numbers. It's not about personal ego, it's about personal skills. The assumption that a large troop can't be boy run is just that, an assumption. And it is a bad assumption. There many large good true boy run programs. One basic answer to question is a large troop has a lot more resources for more activity choices. A ski trip for a troop 20 may be a lot more expensive than a larger troop because a parent has connections. Barry

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

I've found each unit is different, although being a bit old school, I'm intrigued, and encouraged, to find out tough attendance and participation requirements working. My mentioned how your troop went form dead, to the perfect size in a year; what did that for you? What type of program does the unit run? I'm asking because it sounds like you got something very right, and may have some good ideas others may benefit from.

[Stosh]

Well Monday night our unit hit my magic number of 38. 4 patrols of 8 and a green bar patrol of the SPL, 2 ASPL and the troop quartermaster. At this point We are closing the unit and not accepting new members and beginning the attendance policy enforcement.

 

I honestly have no interest in a mega troop. The CC made a statement that he would love to see a troop of 100. I have the support of the rest of the committee to keep the number at 38 and they like my thought and reasoning.

 

Good thing the rest of the committee is with you on that. I've never seen a troop over 50 that is properly boy-led and not rampant with adult-centric "fixes" to make that size sustainable. 8 troop scribes to give everyone their PoR, and silliness like that. It's simply an ego thing, and most of the time it's a racket from one mega fundraiser to the next for that troop RV with satellite TV and 6-burner range

 

If the CC won't let it go, sock him with Baden-Powell: "The numbers in a Troop should preferably not exceed thirty two. I suggest this number because in training boys myself I have found that sixteen was about as many I could deal with - in getting at and bringing out the individual character in each. I allow for other people being twice as capable as myself and hence the total of thirty-two." (Aids to Scoutmastership)

 

Maybe the CC thinks he is 6x better at this than BP, in which case he can make a 100-member troop; or maybe he thinks you're 6x better, in which case he ought to accept your judgement that 38 is enough.

A good PL should be able to handle 6-8 without having to live with them 24/7.

 

He should be able to give the SM an insight into the boy before any SMC. Of course that only works if the PL's are actually functional.

 

With a functional corps of PL's and an effective SPL/ASPL team the troop could function quite well with a large number of boys.

 

Like I mentioned a Pack of 110 boys and 15 adult DL's the Pack did very well. As you mentioned with a CC on an ego trip, maybe the SM's ego doesn't need to be big enough to think is importance is necessarily great enough to handle boys without having to know them all intimately. It's part of delegating responsibility and accountability to the PL's and let them do their magic. The boys may mature into leadership skills if the SM/ASM team isn't hovering over their shoulders needing to be involved with everything in the Patrols.

 

80 boys, 10 patrols, SM works with SPL/ASPL team to enhance the leadership of 10 PL's. Now, those boys the SM should know intimately!

 

I for one don't think it's necessary to know every boy, but if I have a problem with one, the first question I ask is: "Who's your PL?" If I've looked at his right sleeve shirt first, I don't even have to ask the question.

 

I think BP's limit to 30 boys is indicative of an adult's ability to handle that many individuals at any given time. Just ask any well trained professional teacher. They'll tell you that number is critical. However, if one has solid PL's that glass ceiling can be easily broken.

 

Stosh

[Stosh]

Bottom line here folks

 

We will take the Web crossovers from Little Brother Pack regardless of troop size, they average 3-6 per year. I will plan the troop looking at the webelo numbers coming up.

 

We will enforce attendance, good riddance to the casual scouts, the ones that cherry pick events or camp only.

 

I have spoken to neighboring SM's to let them know what I am doing and ask permission to refer boys to them. They agree that more units are better than a single mega troop in the area. One expressed concerns about receiving our cast offs the other was glad to have them. I assured both that any contacts would be referred to them without ever meeting or judging the lad, We would not cherry pick boys.

We will enforce attendance, good riddance to the casual scouts, the ones that cherry pick events or camp only.

 

We would not cherry pick boys.

 

Hmm... Doesn't sound like you cherry pick the newbies, but down the road it looks like that might be the case?????

 

Stosh

[Basementdweller]

I've found each unit is different, although being a bit old school, I'm intrigued, and encouraged, to find out tough attendance and participation requirements working. My mentioned how your troop went form dead, to the perfect size in a year; what did that for you? What type of program does the unit run? I'm asking because it sounds like you got something very right, and may have some good ideas others may benefit from.

It took 4 years to bring the program back and it took the Troop committee and the Two adults who had a shared vision as to where they wanted to go and it to be. We are very much still in process.

 

The attendance policy stemmed from a number of discussions here about boys at life disappearing for a couple of years and then reappearing to earn Eagle just under the wire.

 

Being proactive and not gonna be that guy. The committee adopted the policy about a year ago now. The parents are aware of it as are the boys and till now there has been no reason to enforce/remove a lad from membership.

 

We have not rechartered boys who have not been active, the PL call to see if they are interested no response your off the charter. Last year it killed my retention numbers, but this year we lost 2 webelos who filled out the application and came to a couple of meetings to never be seen from again and a football player.

 

but Honestly their attendance has been stellar. We have 100 for most meetings and 80-100% attendance on outings.

 

The program is headed toward a boy led outdoor program. We have multiple events a month outside of meetings from community service, day hikes, orienteering mets, on and on. We camp 10 months a year with December being our Lock in Christmas party and a cabin trip to our local scout camp for scout community service.

 

The program is what ever the boys want it to be.....We shoot, canoe, hike, backpack, rappell, bike, swim, provide service to our community.

 

 

The big thing is our troop is made up of boys who want to be in scouting, not boys whose parents think it might be a good idea.

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

Basement, we've not always agreed on everything in the past, but I'll be the first in line to shake your hand. Your troop has took the bull by the horns, and created a solid, strong scout program to be proud of. I took the campaign hat off last year, and stepped down as SM. I now wish I had taken a tougher stance on attendance and cut the dead weight loose. The good news is, as UC for the units are the Charter Org, and mentor for the new SM, I still have some influence

[Stosh]

What confuses me is the mega troops are SM ego trips, yet Basement's smaller troop isn't. But HE took the bulls by the horn and with other adults rescued this poor pittance of a troop and built is by hand into what it is today? They have rules, regs and have the very best of the boys.

 

Why do I hear adult ego running throughout the conversation? Where are the comments about how the boys are taking over and making it a boy-led program? The closest thing to boy-led might be in the program, but the words WE and OUR always crops up.

 

I remember once being told that a pet-peeve is something others do that we don't like about ourselves.

 

"The program is what ever the boys want it to be.....We shoot, canoe, hike, backpack, rappell, bike, swim, provide service to our community." Shouldn't it be THEY shoot, canoe, hike, backpack, etc.???

 

Now forums don't always give full indication of the meaning of words, but if I was UC I would be a bit concerned without further information.

 

I left a "boy-led, patrol-method" troop that was the best in the council, just ask any of the adults running it.

 

Stosh

[blw2]

Agreed, there must be a history behind the "rule" that a mega troop = scouter ego.

 

To answer basement's question - YES, there most certainly is/could be advantages to a larger troop.

[Eagledad]

What confuses me is the mega troops are SM ego trips, yet Basement's smaller troop isn't. But HE took the bulls by the horn and with other adults rescued this poor pittance of a troop and built is by hand into what it is today? They have rules, regs and have the very best of the boys.

 

Why do I hear adult ego running throughout the conversation? Where are the comments about how the boys are taking over and making it a boy-led program? The closest thing to boy-led might be in the program, but the words WE and OUR always crops up.

 

I remember once being told that a pet-peeve is something others do that we don't like about ourselves.

 

"The program is what ever the boys want it to be.....We shoot, canoe, hike, backpack, rappell, bike, swim, provide service to our community." Shouldn't it be THEY shoot, canoe, hike, backpack, etc.???

 

Now forums don't always give full indication of the meaning of words, but if I was UC I would be a bit concerned without further information.

 

I left a "boy-led, patrol-method" troop that was the best in the council, just ask any of the adults running it.

 

Stosh

The problem with your philosophy stosh is that boys don't start or build troops. A troop is only as boy run as the vision of the the adults driving the program. And one mans boy run is another mans eagle factory. Whose to say you talk a good talk ,but..we'll you know. I can't respect the statement that mega troops are adult egos in overdrive because I've observed mega troop leaders who don't have a self serving bone in their body. They just have a style that works best for working with large programs. If you want to demonize bad leaders, at least pick on actual bad leaders to demonize. You will find adult egos in all sizes of troops, even so-called boy run troops. And if mega troops isn't your style, good for you. But there must be something there of value for so many families to pick mega troops programs. Barry

[Stosh]

What confuses me is the mega troops are SM ego trips, yet Basement's smaller troop isn't. But HE took the bulls by the horn and with other adults rescued this poor pittance of a troop and built is by hand into what it is today? They have rules, regs and have the very best of the boys.

 

Why do I hear adult ego running throughout the conversation? Where are the comments about how the boys are taking over and making it a boy-led program? The closest thing to boy-led might be in the program, but the words WE and OUR always crops up.

 

I remember once being told that a pet-peeve is something others do that we don't like about ourselves.

 

"The program is what ever the boys want it to be.....We shoot, canoe, hike, backpack, rappell, bike, swim, provide service to our community." Shouldn't it be THEY shoot, canoe, hike, backpack, etc.???

 

Now forums don't always give full indication of the meaning of words, but if I was UC I would be a bit concerned without further information.

 

I left a "boy-led, patrol-method" troop that was the best in the council, just ask any of the adults running it.

 

Stosh

Eagledad, don't know where that flame came from. I'm the one saying one does not need to limit the sizes of units! One can have a small boy-run AND large boy-run troops in my book! So far the two points I have made is sometimes the facilities restricts the number of boys in a troop just because there just isn't enough room. The other is once one gets to a size that the SM can't handle (about 30) then one has to shift gears and start turning the unit over to really boy-run because it's too much for one person to handle. A SM that has to intimately know all the boys will never be able to handle a troop of 80 boys, but multiple boy-led patrols can.

 

So what limits the troop? Room size, or adult control? The ego thingy comes into play when I see adults struggling with large troops because they can't control it and don't rely on their trained boys to pick up the slack.

 

In reality for me, small troops are boy-led by adult decision, but larger troops need the boys to step up and take on boy-led dynamics just to keep things going beyond the scope of what the adults can handle. Otherwise there needs to be a huge cadre of adults keeping control over the larger troops.

 

Boy-led comes in ALL sizes and the adults don't need to put arbitrary limits on the program for the boys to benefit from it. I just wonder if controlling adults put these limits on the size of troops just because they don't want to lose control.

 

I don't know if it's my style of writing or how I phrase things, but you and I see things eye-to-eye more often than not.

 

Stosh

[MattR]

BW, I'm not sure what your controls will be to keep your size down but I'd suggest caution with not allowing any new scouts in as it might cause troubles down the road. If 38 is where you want to be and you're running a great program and no scouts leave for 2 or 3 years then you won't have any new scouts for this period. After this time the webelos might come and see that there are no younger scouts and might find another troop more welcoming. Another problem is that a year or so after that you'll have a bubble in your leadership. This is a real challenge.

 

I've always felt that there has to be some new scouts every year. I'd limit the size of the troop by limiting the number of new scouts allowed every year. If 8 scouts a year would keep the membership at roughly 38 then maybe some times the number would go to 40 or 44 and sometimes it might come down to 32, but there would always be new scouts.

[jpstodwftexas]

Funny thing is..Scouters want to go and Stay where they have fun and are Comfortable...Honestly as a Scout I went where I felt I was welcome..I did not care if it was "Boy" ran or "Adult" run.. I cared for Structure..when I moved back to Wichita Falls Texas...I visited several Troops

 

First Troop ( a Large Troop) I visited I was sat down and Shown My Schedule to Eagle...planned out to the Minute already. Never Introduced to the Boys

Second Troop (another Large Troop) It was a Rabble..no Structure..Boys running everywhere

3rd Troop ( a Small One)..It was Structured..They were well mannered, I was sent out after Opening to visit with the Boys..The Boys learned from the Elders and were respectful. They had Awards on Walls, They participated in all Council Events..They never Missed an Event

 

Needless to say I picked the Third Troop ...Troop 6

 

Scouts go to the Best Troops they stay by Choice

If a Troop gets a reputation of "selecting" scouts and Turning away Scouts they will run themselves down to a point where they will fail.

Over the Years a Certain Troop here was Know as an Eagle Factory..They were Known to Hand Select Scouts based "Eagle" Material, They Did not Attend Council Events, Now They are a Shell of a Troop they once were.

[scoutergipper]

I'm pleased to see this discussion, because my Troop has had a similar trajectory to Basement's, growing from 11 to 33 in 2 years. Our internal discussion has revolved around similar issues - how big do we want to be? My personal view is that I don't want to be walking around at Summer Camp, see a Scout and not be sure if he's one of mine. I can see the Troop at 50 before that happens (and I think recruiting this spring will take us over 40).

 

However, I really struggle with my primary issue, which is this: what is my moral responsibility to boys in Scouting in general? It seems to me the most likely result of locking down your numbers and turning boys away is that boys who otherwise would get the benefit of Scouting will either never join the program or will quit after only a short time. As mentioned just above, boys choose a Troop based on a variety of reasons. Your Troop may be perfect for a boy, and none other will do. You have failed any boy you turn away who never joins a Troop.