Too harsh???

[bokris]

Hey BD... Yep... I'm a new Scoutmaster, barely a year into the Boy Scout program. The Troop is 75 years old, but there was only one boy returning, so I told the WEBELOS group that if they wanted to cross over into the Troop, that I would be their SM (the old one had no desire, and hadn't for the past few years). We've been learning together. I crossed 12 boys, and now we're a 17. Camped 20 nights this past year. We've attended summer camp, been climbing, sailboating, caving, whitewater rafting, backpacking, and a variety of other things. The Scouts are working on advancement (4 - 1st class, and a handful of 2nd class). I know one or 2 other SM's in the District that I occasionally speak with about issues, but they seem to either talk up how well their Troop is doing, or struggle with similar issues.

 

Roundtable has been a session where we go in, do pledge, a presenter presents about a merit badge, and everybody leaves. No hanging around talking about issues, successes, and ideas. Maybe I just haven't "become part of the gang" yet, but everybody seems disjointed.

 

Our program in itself is going pretty good, but some stuff; I'm just struggling with, making it up as I go, and doing the best I can. I try to follow Greenbar Bill's teachings, and try to utilize the Patrol method throughout everything done in the Troop. I read constantly,, from this forum to Scoutmastercg.com to meritbadge.org etc. etc. I don't have a UC, and my CC is very motivational... "Your doing the right thing." "The programming is great." You have a great grasp on the Patrol method." ETC.... But when I have issues, the standard reply is, "You'll figure it out."

 

That is why I reach out to various forums, and have found my way back here... To get honest, objective feedback. ideas, affirmation (when deserved) and constructive criticism when needed. Its all very helpful...

[Basementdweller]

Hey BD... Yep... I'm a new Scoutmaster, barely a year into the Boy Scout program. The Troop is 75 years old, but there was only one boy returning, so I told the WEBELOS group that if they wanted to cross over into the Troop, that I would be their SM (the old one had no desire, and hadn't for the past few years). We've been learning together. I crossed 12 boys, and now we're a 17. Camped 20 nights this past year. We've attended summer camp, been climbing, sailboating, caving, whitewater rafting, backpacking, and a variety of other things. The Scouts are working on advancement (4 - 1st class, and a handful of 2nd class). I know one or 2 other SM's in the District that I occasionally speak with about issues, but they seem to either talk up how well their Troop is doing, or struggle with similar issues.

 

Roundtable has been a session where we go in, do pledge, a presenter presents about a merit badge, and everybody leaves. No hanging around talking about issues, successes, and ideas. Maybe I just haven't "become part of the gang" yet, but everybody seems disjointed.

 

Our program in itself is going pretty good, but some stuff; I'm just struggling with, making it up as I go, and doing the best I can. I try to follow Greenbar Bill's teachings, and try to utilize the Patrol method throughout everything done in the Troop. I read constantly,, from this forum to Scoutmastercg.com to meritbadge.org etc. etc. I don't have a UC, and my CC is very motivational... "Your doing the right thing." "The programming is great." You have a great grasp on the Patrol method." ETC.... But when I have issues, the standard reply is, "You'll figure it out."

 

That is why I reach out to various forums, and have found my way back here... To get honest, objective feedback. ideas, affirmation (when deserved) and constructive criticism when needed. Its all very helpful...

from what you said you do not need an SPL.

 

I would remove the position and have two PL's who alternate the role when it is required for an event or summer camp.

 

Honestly, rare is the boy who can be an effective patrol leader at 12 even more rare is an effective SPL at 12.

[Basementdweller]

Interesting comment Basement, about finding someone to talk with NOT a UC.

Sort of off topic, but not really... I have been struggling lately, with exactly your recommendation. I'd like to know a little more about how other units operate, since all of my experiences as an adult scouter are with only this one unit. I know that in some ways we have 'evolved' into doing certain things in a certain way. I don't want to fix what works, but at the same time it could be good to step back and breathe in some fresh ideas now and then.

I see a little here and there at round table, on this forum, etc.... but I still really don't have a feel for what other units do. Not what the books say, but what they really do. Nothing specific either, that can be asked.... just general stuff. This is where I figured a good UC could be handy. They are supposed to get around and see other units....

But I do recognize that this is very hit or miss. I've seen our a few times, but not much and when he does visit, it's in and out. So really, I can't say with good confidence that he knows how our unit works.

I have a tentative mtg set with our UC soon. Can't hurt (I hope)

 

Looping back to the original post and your response.... finding a SM in and area with a program you like could be difficult for sure. How are you supposed to know if you like their program, unless you visit them multiple times in different settings OR spend a whole lot of time with the SM and the folks from the unit? Anyway, I'm not being critical.... just troubled I guess on how to apply the advice.

So who exactly is your unit commisioner and how or where does his or her knowledge come from????

 

 

My point is find a SM who you know is running a successful program and ask them questions. A commisioner is a person who can set through a number of classes just like a cub scout den leader and end up with a certificate.

 

I know of several den leaders who have become commissioners, really???? Your going to offer advice to a SM about troop operations or issues when you have never been in his shoes????

 

Ahhhh, no thanks.

 

 

Honestly, if you want to find a successful troop in your area, just call your DE and he will steer you who to talk to. His bonus runs hand in hand with the success of your unit.

[Brewmeister]

Getting into the details of how-much-time-I-give wasn't the right way to go IMO. It shifts the focus away from where the problem really is.

 

Simpler explanations are generally better… the boy knew what his responsibilities were when he took the position; the "team" counts on him to fulfill those responsibilities just like his sports teams, etc.; if he does not want to fulfill those responsibilities it is best he doesn't hold a position of responsibility but he is more than welcome to continue with the troop.

[qwazse]

Hey BD... Yep... I'm a new Scoutmaster, barely a year into the Boy Scout program. The Troop is 75 years old, but there was only one boy returning, so I told the WEBELOS group that if they wanted to cross over into the Troop, that I would be their SM (the old one had no desire, and hadn't for the past few years). We've been learning together. I crossed 12 boys, and now we're a 17. Camped 20 nights this past year. We've attended summer camp, been climbing, sailboating, caving, whitewater rafting, backpacking, and a variety of other things. The Scouts are working on advancement (4 - 1st class, and a handful of 2nd class). I know one or 2 other SM's in the District that I occasionally speak with about issues, but they seem to either talk up how well their Troop is doing, or struggle with similar issues.

 

Roundtable has been a session where we go in, do pledge, a presenter presents about a merit badge, and everybody leaves. No hanging around talking about issues, successes, and ideas. Maybe I just haven't "become part of the gang" yet, but everybody seems disjointed.

 

Our program in itself is going pretty good, but some stuff; I'm just struggling with, making it up as I go, and doing the best I can. I try to follow Greenbar Bill's teachings, and try to utilize the Patrol method throughout everything done in the Troop. I read constantly,, from this forum to Scoutmastercg.com to meritbadge.org etc. etc. I don't have a UC, and my CC is very motivational... "Your doing the right thing." "The programming is great." You have a great grasp on the Patrol method." ETC.... But when I have issues, the standard reply is, "You'll figure it out."

 

That is why I reach out to various forums, and have found my way back here... To get honest, objective feedback. ideas, affirmation (when deserved) and constructive criticism when needed. Its all very helpful...

No UC is better than a useless one. Often you get the same result as you would talking to those couple SM's you know.

Lot's of scouters would gladly do the work of UC without the patch.

You'll almost always get split opinions from us ASMs, we all know we're just one step away from being stuck in the same quagmire as the SM's.

 

The CC is doing the right thing for his position. You really only need him to help you think through serious discipline issues. If the worst problem is Chuck and Joe not being on top of their calendar's, you're golden!

 

Like BD said, there's no rush to fill that SPL/ASPL position. The PL's can take turns presiding over meetings until your next election time. At that point, if your troop hasn't grown to four patrols, the boys may decide that they don't need an SPL, or one very strong leader will come to the fore, and the boys will elect him.

[bokris]

Getting into the details of how-much-time-I-give wasn't the right way to go IMO. It shifts the focus away from where the problem really is.

 

Simpler explanations are generally better… the boy knew what his responsibilities were when he took the position; the "team" counts on him to fulfill those responsibilities just like his sports teams, etc.; if he does not want to fulfill those responsibilities it is best he doesn't hold a position of responsibility but he is more than welcome to continue with the troop.

yeah... after sending my, "oh look at me" statements within the email, I realized that I should have known better... You would think that I might learn to hold my emails until the emotions are in check. After several years, I still struggle with the same issue I guess I won't struggle, once I actually stop doing it!

[bokris]

Getting into the details of how-much-time-I-give wasn't the right way to go IMO. It shifts the focus away from where the problem really is.

 

Simpler explanations are generally better… the boy knew what his responsibilities were when he took the position; the "team" counts on him to fulfill those responsibilities just like his sports teams, etc.; if he does not want to fulfill those responsibilities it is best he doesn't hold a position of responsibility but he is more than welcome to continue with the troop.

yeah... after sending my, "oh look at me" statements within the email, I realized that I should have known better... You would think that I might learn to hold my emails until the emotions are in check. After several years, I still struggle with the same issue I guess I won't struggle, once I actually stop doing it!

[bokris]

I like the thought of having a "pre-election counseling session" for the Scouts who are looking to run for the position (as well as their parents). I believe it will be a hard sell to keep the boys from wanting to have an SPL... As elections begin to be on the horizon, the Scouts really begin to look forward to them. They begin looking at positions they would like to run for, and as of late (elections are in January), have begun picking "running mates." IE. "Lets run as a team... You run for SPL, and I'll be your running mate for ASPL (appointed by SPL). We'll campaign on a dual ticket, and should be able to pull more votes than if running alone... Kind of funny. I have 2 Scouts doing this right now, one on a Patrick ticket, and one on a Taylor/ Andrew ticket.

 

It's getting pretty heated, and its still a month away....

[dedkad]

Interesting comment Basement, about finding someone to talk with NOT a UC.

Sort of off topic, but not really... I have been struggling lately, with exactly your recommendation. I'd like to know a little more about how other units operate, since all of my experiences as an adult scouter are with only this one unit. I know that in some ways we have 'evolved' into doing certain things in a certain way. I don't want to fix what works, but at the same time it could be good to step back and breathe in some fresh ideas now and then.

I see a little here and there at round table, on this forum, etc.... but I still really don't have a feel for what other units do. Not what the books say, but what they really do. Nothing specific either, that can be asked.... just general stuff. This is where I figured a good UC could be handy. They are supposed to get around and see other units....

But I do recognize that this is very hit or miss. I've seen our a few times, but not much and when he does visit, it's in and out. So really, I can't say with good confidence that he knows how our unit works.

I have a tentative mtg set with our UC soon. Can't hurt (I hope)

 

Looping back to the original post and your response.... finding a SM in and area with a program you like could be difficult for sure. How are you supposed to know if you like their program, unless you visit them multiple times in different settings OR spend a whole lot of time with the SM and the folks from the unit? Anyway, I'm not being critical.... just troubled I guess on how to apply the advice.

With all the extra time I'm sure you have on your hands, you could always become a Webelos den leader. Then you can spy on the other troops under the guise of troop visits for the Webelos boys. I've learned a lot about how the different troops operate in our area by attending these visits and asking lots of questions.

[Eagledad]

It seems like you have a pretty good grasp of your situation Bokris, you just need some experience to learn how to do your job better. We are all there because good scout mastering is continued growth through humility. It never stops. I tell folks all the time time that I did more things wrong than I did right, but somehow we did ok. Learn from the trials so you know how to do it better next time. As for the 12 year old maturity, I teach adults to balance the youth leadership with enough of adult energy to give the scouts growth. Understand that growth comes from the Scouts' discovery of making good decisions baised from "their" experiences, not what the adults tell them they should learn. But we must understand that 12 year old SPL has neither the maturity or experience of a 16 year old SPL. Your program has to challenge the 12 year old to grow so they can be the mature 16 year olds without overwhelming them and taking out the fun. That is a HUGE challenge for the adults because they have to constantly step back as the scouts grow. How much room should you give scouts? Enough to find their limits to crossing the line of not being fun anymore, then pulling back just a small bit. Remember, adults have to learn more faster so they don't get in the scouts' way. Where troops fail is when the adults get lazy and quit learning from the experiences. Barry

[fred johnson]

My experience is that being a scout leader is a lot less about rules and much more about people skills, communication and coordination. Great idea to communicate expectations and talk about it. You don't really need to specify any extra rules. Just discuss what it means to be SPL. Then if the scout can't live up to the expectation, talk with him about it and work thru the situation. That's where the people skill comes in.

[bokris]

Thanks All, for great feedback. I have been able to absorb much of the information, and have utilized it well (for now, until the next mistake!). I have since, reached out to the mom, the divorced dad, and the Scout, and let them know that while the Scout may not be the most organized, and the family may struggle with time commitment, that the Scout is a great boy. He stands up for the boy who is weaker, the ones who are picked on at times, and when he doesn't know how to handle a situation, he comes to my Assistant Scoutmasters or myself. He is a leader; with or without title. Tonight is Court of Honor, and the Patrol leaders will run it, and then its Christmas break. On January 7, our first meeting back, we will have new boy leader elections (this has been scheduled since our Annual planning meeting in August).

 

The family were all in agreement that the Scout was still too "disorganized and immature" to handle a leadership role, but loves Scouts, and will continue in the program.

 

I have learned:

 

1. Don't respond to upsetting emails by email (I keep learning that one)

2. Take a few moments (days possibly) to respond, and use the time to reflect on the most appropriate response, as to not react out of anger.

3. Have a pre-nomination counseling session with the Scouts AND the family, to review expectations and time commitments.

4. An 11/ 12 year old Scout does not need the same level of expectation in a role as a 15-16 year old Scout. (This one is hard, as I want to allow the Scouts the responsibility for their program, and not "do it for them," but when the Troop is 11/12 year old boys, I find that they don't have the organizational/ communication skills and experience to do it alone, and I struggle to find balance).

5. When I continue to make the same mistakes, I am obviously not learning from the mistakes I'm making.

 

It is great to be able to air things on this forum, as there are so many differing opinions from which to gain knowledge and insight, as well as constructive criticism and affirmation. Thank you all for taking the time to review and offer help.