NOAC Patch Placement

[qwazse]

I’m not sure I follow the intended purpose is in making reference to the definition of slang terms, and jargon, listed in what were once useful, if cumbersomely bulky reference volumes, now devoid of any redeeming quality , housing such gems as Tweaking, and aint … which Microsoft Word correctly fails to identify as words.

 

We’re comparing the two big national scout gatherings, conventions, which by tradition, and design, are intentionally distinguishable. The key isn’t how they’re different, and the different purposes of each event, but how they are similar. These two events are the only two single session national scout gatherings in this nation; as such, both are clearly defined as national events, and thus the insignia for each should be able to be worn on the uniform in the place reserved for national event insignia.

So the issue is: ignoring the number of participants, are they equivalent enough?

 

Name recognition. NOAC simply does not have it.

Broad base: NOAC is not open to scouts who were never elected as honored campers. Nor are invites sent to BSA members who have no access to being elected - not even for them to volunteer as event staff.

Global: there is no international equivalent ... no World-NOAC.

Curb appeal: no tent cities? 'Nuf said.

 

There is no doubt going to NOAC is its own reward. It rightly can claim a place on a boy's right pocket or sash-back. But, I can imagine that for someone writing the insignia guide, it takes a street-recognized, broad-based, global event with lots of curb-appeal to justify coloring up the region between Epaulet and right pocket.

 

NOAC, NAYLE, the HA Bases, Sea-Scout Conventions, Venturing Summits, and the first-aid meet at the neighborhood gym are simply not that event.

[EagleScout441]

Attendance at 2013 National Jamboree:

24,682 Boy Scouts ages 12-17 years old and 2,118 Venturers ages 14-21 years old

2,782 Boy Scout leaders and 455 Venturing leaders

6,224 staff members

Approximately, 15,732 visitor days purchased

Total attendance, including visitors: 52,319

 

Attendance at NOAC 2012 was around 8,000(couldn't find exact numbers). NOAC 2015 is expected to have 10,000.

 

So yes, qwazse, NOAC can hardly compare to Jambo in attendance, but it is still the second largest National event. Then I think Venturing's BSA Winterfest comes in third.

 

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

EagleScout441, thank you for the reminder about Venturing’s BSA Winterfest, I didn’t intend to exclude it when discussing national events.

 

Qwazse, we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this. However, I don’t think the numbers attending an event is the key criteria in recognizing it’s importance as a key National Event.

 

When looking at numbers it’s important to note, as you pointed out, National Order of the Arrow Conference is a mass gathering of a very select group, the scout’s recognized as their fellows as exemplifying the Scout Oath and Law, those who are looked up to my their fellows as models scouts. Following this recommendation, these scouts underwent an arduous test to prove they were worthy, and undertook a binding obligation of servant leadership. Having completed the above, the scout then earned the right to attend the National Order of the Arrow Conference, where he will pay to spend a week learning how to be a more effective servant leader, so he my strengthen the scouting program, his church, and community.

 

What grants a scout the right to attend Jambo, oh yea, writing a check. What do scouts do at Jambo, oh yea, have fun and work on personal advancement.

 

If you’re going to compare numbers it’s important to view things in the correct. I’ll restate my original statement, both Jambo and NOAC are important BSA national events, and deserve to be recognized as such.

 

[qwazse]

What grants a scout the right to attend Jambo' date=' oh yea, writing a check.[/quote']

 

But that's the point isn't it? Jambo is there for anyone who can raise the funds to get there. It's the American dream. You don't have to be one of the elites. Sock away $100/month (plus $3 for membership fees) ... within a 2-3 years, you're good to go!

 

What do scouts do at Jambo' date=' oh yea, have fun and work on personal advancement.[/quote']

 

I think that's "have fun or ..." not every Jambo participant comes back with an MB. And "have fun" doesn't count because scouts are cheerful generators of their own fun anywhere.

 

But what do they really do? They meet other scouts from everywhere ... even scouts -- and this is really really important because this is something that NOAC does not provide -- who HAVE ZERO INTEREST IN O/A as well as scouts who are all about the Brotherhood. Free from biases that may exist in their home troop, they can make a side-by-side comparisons of O/A and the many other opportunities that scouting affords.

 

The Jambo patch recognizes the boy who took time out of his scouting career to meet the most diverse group of scouts that will ever be gathered in one place. All other "sub-culture" patches come in a pale second.

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

Qwazse, the OA program is hardly a sub-culture, having been national program for almost 100 years, and a staple program in nearly very camp and council. The last number I saw for the annual value of service provided by the OA to BSA properties, and outer outdoor program areas, was in the billions, that's "billion", with a "B". No matter your personal opinions, you can't deny the good this program does for scouting in this nations, on so many levels. I'm guessing you have either had a bad experience somewhere, are part of one of the unofficial honor societies, or have never participated in a strong OA program.

 

We are the same in that we each have a strong preference, but different in that I recognize the importance, and strong contributions, of both these national programs, where you do not.

[qwazse]

Qwazse, the OA program is hardly a sub-culture, having been national program for almost 100 years, and a staple program in nearly very camp and council. The last number I saw for the annual value of service provided by the OA to BSA properties, and outer outdoor program areas, was in the billions, that's "billion", with a "B". No matter your personal opinions, you can't deny the good this program does for scouting in this nations, on so many levels. I'm guessing you have either had a bad experience somewhere, are part of one of the unofficial honor societies, or have never participated in a strong OA program.

 

We are the same in that we each have a strong preference, but different in that I recognize the importance, and strong contributions, of both these national programs, where you do not.

To be precise, it's been a national program for 66 years (the first NOAC starting 13 years after the first national jamboree). Still, nothing to sneeze at.

 

Don't misconstrue me, I am incredibly pleased with OA, especially our lodge, and what it's done for our boys. I actively promote the NOAC to my youth. And, as much as I loved going to Jambo as a youth, I'm in no rush to go again.

 

In fact I believe the OA definitely deserves to be recognized with its own piece of real estate on the national uniform. How 'bout that pentagon, wider than tall, flapping downward at the top of that right pocket? Let's not use that flap for anything but a patch designated by the OA lodge (even if it looks like Totin' Chip or Firem'n Chit would fit) .

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

Qwazse, I don't misconstrue you, as you said in your first post in this thread you're presenting the other point of view. Certainly none of this is personal; I think we're done pretty well exploring the topic. I didn't think I'd change your opinion to begin with, nor did I think you'd change mine; but I think it was productive to explore the topic.

[EagleScout441]

Not to change the subject, but where does it say that the Jambo patch above the right pocket must be either "National" or "World" Jamboree?

[Eagle92]

According to this document, only CURRENT national scout jamboree insignia.

 

https://www.scoutstuff.org/media/content/docs/pdfs/34048.pdf

[Eagle92]

Also according to The Guide to Awards and Insignia, page 10

Jamboree Insignia

Jamboree emblems for Boy Scouts or Venturers are worn only by registered jamboree participants and staff and are centered above the Boy Scouts of America strip or, for Venturers, above the right shirt pocket above the Venturing strip. No more than two jamboree patches may be worn on the shirtâ€â€one current national jamboree patch above the right pocket and one current world jamboree patch on the right pocket. If the wearer has an interpreter strip above the pocket, merely move the jamboree emblem upward sufficiently to accommodate it.

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pd...6_Section1.pdf

 

 

And here is a link to all sections of the document.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/...gniaGuide.aspx

 

EDITED: When I worked for National Supply, when there were conflicts in information, the Insignia Guide as it was known at the time, was the document that trumped everything else.

[EagleScout441]

You can tell that this inspection sheet is newer because it shows a Summit Jambo patch while the one above shows the 2010 Centennial Jambo. This one does not specify "National," it simply says Jamboree. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34283.pdf

[Scouter99]

I would say that it can be placed above the right pocket. The right pocket patch placement is the most neglected rule of the uniform' date=' for I have seen many scouts wearing "illegal" patches there, the most common ones are either NYLT or NAYLE.[/quote']

 

When you jump off a bridge because everyone else is jumping off a bridge, I'll accept the "everybody's doing it" argument.

[qwazse]

I would say that it can be placed above the right pocket. The right pocket patch placement is the most neglected rule of the uniform' date=' for I have seen many scouts wearing "illegal" patches there, the most common ones are either NYLT or NAYLE.[/quote']

 

When you jump off a bridge because everyone else is jumping off a bridge, I'll accept the "everybody's doing it" argument.

So, as long as nobody else is jumping at the same time, go right ahead!

[EagleScout441]

I would say that it can be placed above the right pocket. The right pocket patch placement is the most neglected rule of the uniform' date=' for I have seen many scouts wearing "illegal" patches there, the most common ones are either NYLT or NAYLE.[/quote']

 

When you jump off a bridge because everyone else is jumping off a bridge, I'll accept the "everybody's doing it" argument.

I stand against the NYLT/NAYLE patches going above the pocket. But NOAC is a National event just like Jambo.