Can I bring my younger son to scout campouts?

[qwazse]

Blake, you know there is no one size fits all formula in scouting.

 

Some troops are more adult rec club than boy scout troop, others have near zero adult involvement

 

I am a HUGE opponent of the Adult/Family Scout troop, there is a huge difference between an ASM bringing his scout son along VS ASM bringing Wife, and 3 daughters or worse yet 15 year old daughter.

 

Again, I would ask the PLC what their opinion is.......Then live by their decision.

Not necessarily, MT. Our SPL/PLs have the option of extending an invite to our crew (or, any other unit, for that matter) for any troop activity. They usually don't.

 

There's this illusion among scouters that it's like flies to honey. But boys ain't flies, and though generally sweet, girls ain't honey.

 

My boots-on-the-ground experience concurs with BD. Bring it up at the PLC. The boys generally have a good sense about this sort of thing.

[moosetracker]

I'm throwing the BS flag. Heaven forbid a boy goes along on a boy scout trip. By all means, keep those younger boys at home so they can't experience what a troop actually does. Keep them home and do the arts and crafts like they are supposed to. Once they get it in their heads there is more to the program than that, the whole thing could collapse.

 

Are your programs that shallow that an ASM is an integral part of any trip?

Fine then invite all the parents and all the siblings on the Troop outings.

[duckfoot]

I'm throwing the BS flag. Heaven forbid a boy goes along on a boy scout trip. By all means, keep those younger boys at home so they can't experience what a troop actually does. Keep them home and do the arts and crafts like they are supposed to. Once they get it in their heads there is more to the program than that, the whole thing could collapse.

 

Are your programs that shallow that an ASM is an integral part of any trip?

So you'd cancel the entire trip rather than let one non scout boy go? That really helps the scouts...

 

I'm sorry but I fail to see how one non scout son ruins a camping weekend.

[duckfoot]

Well newtoscoutsdad, pick your answer from the flame war here or you can ask the guy to give you your real answer...That would be your Scoutmaster.

[Sentinel947]

Well newtoscoutsdad, pick your answer from the flame war here or you can ask the guy to give you your real answer...That would be your Scoutmaster.

Not necessarily a flame war. There are many different schools of thought on various subjects of Scouting. Part of the strength of this forum is giving people asking questions as many possible opinions and angles of view as possible .

[GeorgiaMom]

Dear NewToScoutsDad, from AlmostNewToScoutsMom,

 

I totally sympathize and understand your position. I have a younger daughter who had to attend with me when my son's Cub Scout pack needed me last year.

 

My husband often works late, and is often called to work unexpectedly. We have no family where we live now, and I cannot afford to pay a sitter $50 so that I can go volunteer. Therefore, my daughter often accompanied me. She was quiet and well behaved, more so than some of the Tiger Cubs.

 

I think every pack and every troop are a bit different. The comments indicating that younger children of either gender are an annoyance hit me in a sore spot due to the behavior of the leaders of my particular pack. Your mileage may vary.

 

In our pack, only 3 dads volunteer: CM, CC, and the camping coordinator (whose son will bridge this year). Everything else is done by the moms. We all have younger children, boys and girls. Two of the lady volunteers have young babies.

 

After leaving the post of Treasurer this summer (details in other posts), I started volunteering with American Heritage Girls this year on behalf of my daughter. It is a much more pleasant atmosphere in which to volunteer than Cub Scouts was for me. There are some things in AHG culture that I think would be a nice addition to Scouting:

 

1. AHG Troops integrate different ages instead of separating them all the time. This is not to say that the older girls don't get a chance to focus only on themselves and age appropriate activities. They absolutely do.

 

However, it is part of the older girls' training to lead the younger girls in activities from time to time. This fall, the older girls have organized a hike, leading the younger girls. They also organized a sleepover for the girls.

 

I am grateful my 7 year old daughter has these very sharp and professional young ladies of 12-15 or so to look up to. They are wonderful role models. I believe it is also a good teaching experience for the older girls to learn to lead. Isn't leadership a trait Scouts should be learning?

 

2. AHG does a better job of making it easy for parents to volunteer and integrate their other children than the BSA, in my opinion, having volunteered for both groups. My son often accompanies me to his sister's meetings because our family situation requires it. He sometimes participates, as he did with our "box of goodies for the troops" project this week. Sometimes, he works on his homework. Not once has anyone in AHG complained.

 

What the BSA has communicated to me as a parent is that they expect me to be a BSA volunteer first, and a parent to my own kids (all of them) second. I can't do that. I got tired of my daughter being left out. I got her into a program that was good for her, and took my volunteer time along with me. So have many of the other very tired moms in our pack. Maybe some packs and troops are so flush with volunteers that they can afford to make it obnoxious to volunteer for the BSA. I don't really understand the BSA's reasoning.

 

My son's CM and CC both need to pull their heads out. I fully expect they will be looking around in a year with no other volunteers at all dimly trying to figure out what happened and why they're stuck doing everything themselves.

 

My jaw hit the floor when our CC this fall had the gall to call my friend whose son is in my son's den and ask her to do all the shopping for the fall campout (about 100 people). On 24 hours notice. She was 8 1/2 months pregnant at the time with two younger children and was in pain just walking. But, hey, like the CC said, she has a Costco membership and can save the pack money. And she's been way too nice to them for the last two years. She has quit completely as a Scout volunteer. Maybe if they'd been a little more polite and reasonable, she might have been willing to come back. Now, she's pissed and will likely never volunteer for the BSA again, justifiably.

 

So, when I read notes like the one in this thread complaining about how all those pesky younger siblings get in the way and the adult volunteers should make other arrangements so they can put the troop first, I just shake my head and hope the BSA will get a clue before they lose any more adults willing to volunteer.

 

GA Mom

 

[Eagle92]

Georgia,

 

I feel for ya. Yep every unit is different and situations varies. And what you pack leadership did to the pregnant mom was uncalled for.

 

Now in regards to what the BSA says, Cub Scouts is FAMILY (emphasis, not shouting) oriented, with families attending activities, and sometimes even a few meetings. Camp Outs are Family oriented, and a good pack and district/council event will have activities for Cub Scout siblings to do. Does it happen all the time, no. Best example I can give is my CSDC. National does permit a "tot lot" "sibling den" whatever you want to call it, and discusses it at National Camping School. Problem is not every district has the resources to pull it off. Last year was the first year we had one in the 4 years I've worked it. The siblings had the ability to do everything the Cubs did.

 

Now Boy Scouts is completely different in that it is oriented to the INDIVIDUAL ( again emphasis). We try to grow the Scouts physcially, mentally, and morally. Our job is to guide and mentor, but THEY take charge and do the planning. And I can tell you from first hand expereince, if siblings ruin a troop's expereince, especially one that took a year for the youth to plan, involved a 14 hour round trip car ride because the parents didn't it think it was fair for the Scouts to do the activities in the rain and the siblings are not ready for it, and then the siblings cause several hundred dollars worth of plumbing damage at the place you are staying, the BOY SCOUTS ( again emphasis, not shouting) will consider their siblings an "annoyance" and will state no more siblings will be allowed on their trips.

 

Yep the above happened in my troop, and it was 5 or 6 years before the youth allowed siblings along on camp outs again. All the youth at the time of the original incident either quit or were adults before the PLC again allowed another family camp out.

 

 

SSSSSOOOOOOOO,

 

NewToScoutsDad, why don't you ask the Patrol Leaders' Council, the ones who plan, prepare, and execute the camp outs to see if they want your son tagging along or not.

[moosetracker]

Dear NewToScoutsDad, from AlmostNewToScoutsMom,

 

I totally sympathize and understand your position. I have a younger daughter who had to attend with me when my son's Cub Scout pack needed me last year.

 

My husband often works late, and is often called to work unexpectedly. We have no family where we live now, and I cannot afford to pay a sitter $50 so that I can go volunteer. Therefore, my daughter often accompanied me. She was quiet and well behaved, more so than some of the Tiger Cubs.

 

I think every pack and every troop are a bit different. The comments indicating that younger children of either gender are an annoyance hit me in a sore spot due to the behavior of the leaders of my particular pack. Your mileage may vary.

 

In our pack, only 3 dads volunteer: CM, CC, and the camping coordinator (whose son will bridge this year). Everything else is done by the moms. We all have younger children, boys and girls. Two of the lady volunteers have young babies.

 

After leaving the post of Treasurer this summer (details in other posts), I started volunteering with American Heritage Girls this year on behalf of my daughter. It is a much more pleasant atmosphere in which to volunteer than Cub Scouts was for me. There are some things in AHG culture that I think would be a nice addition to Scouting:

 

1. AHG Troops integrate different ages instead of separating them all the time. This is not to say that the older girls don't get a chance to focus only on themselves and age appropriate activities. They absolutely do.

 

However, it is part of the older girls' training to lead the younger girls in activities from time to time. This fall, the older girls have organized a hike, leading the younger girls. They also organized a sleepover for the girls.

 

I am grateful my 7 year old daughter has these very sharp and professional young ladies of 12-15 or so to look up to. They are wonderful role models. I believe it is also a good teaching experience for the older girls to learn to lead. Isn't leadership a trait Scouts should be learning?

 

2. AHG does a better job of making it easy for parents to volunteer and integrate their other children than the BSA, in my opinion, having volunteered for both groups. My son often accompanies me to his sister's meetings because our family situation requires it. He sometimes participates, as he did with our "box of goodies for the troops" project this week. Sometimes, he works on his homework. Not once has anyone in AHG complained.

 

What the BSA has communicated to me as a parent is that they expect me to be a BSA volunteer first, and a parent to my own kids (all of them) second. I can't do that. I got tired of my daughter being left out. I got her into a program that was good for her, and took my volunteer time along with me. So have many of the other very tired moms in our pack. Maybe some packs and troops are so flush with volunteers that they can afford to make it obnoxious to volunteer for the BSA. I don't really understand the BSA's reasoning.

 

My son's CM and CC both need to pull their heads out. I fully expect they will be looking around in a year with no other volunteers at all dimly trying to figure out what happened and why they're stuck doing everything themselves.

 

My jaw hit the floor when our CC this fall had the gall to call my friend whose son is in my son's den and ask her to do all the shopping for the fall campout (about 100 people). On 24 hours notice. She was 8 1/2 months pregnant at the time with two younger children and was in pain just walking. But, hey, like the CC said, she has a Costco membership and can save the pack money. And she's been way too nice to them for the last two years. She has quit completely as a Scout volunteer. Maybe if they'd been a little more polite and reasonable, she might have been willing to come back. Now, she's pissed and will likely never volunteer for the BSA again, justifiably.

 

So, when I read notes like the one in this thread complaining about how all those pesky younger siblings get in the way and the adult volunteers should make other arrangements so they can put the troop first, I just shake my head and hope the BSA will get a clue before they lose any more adults willing to volunteer.

 

GA Mom

GeorgiaMom - Cub scouts should be more open to other siblings It is promoted as family oriented, and expects family participation. The training given to new Leaders even discusses at least for pack campouts planning a program for all siblings younger and older, not just the scouts. But even aside from pack camping, it is billed as family oriented.. Boy Scouts it is not.. But the Boy scouts do teach younger scouts.. The 10.5 to 11yo new recruits are who they train..

 

I also do not expect people to make other arrangements and go on troop outings.. I do expect them to stay home with their younger sons if that is who they want to spend the time with. The troop should only agree to an adult volunteer on a trip with a younger sibling in tow, only if that is the only way they can go on the outing.. This isn't a demand they find a sitter.. But, is simply a fact that the youngster in tow on a boy scout outing should be avoided if at all possible.. Not the case with Cub scouts.

 

So, it is be a parent to your younger children first, but if that means staying home with them, or better yet doing something that interests them, then do it.. At the Pack level, they should not only accept family attendance, but plan for it. At the troop level they should not. You make your priorities and choose.. Don't feel guilty if you do not choose the troop.

 

The 24 hours notice was uncalled for.. No one alone should be expected to shop for 100 people, that really should be divvied out to different people.. I can't believe she is the only one out of that many people with a Costco card, and if others can't be bothered helping to organize the outing, they can just deal with paying more for the food.. At the very least, considering her condition, they should have suggested if they could meet her at an arranged time at Costco, the able bodied volunteers do all the shopping and just ask if she would use her card when they were in check out.. But, that would be the very least.. I more think others going on the trip should help coordinate the outing.

[Scouter99]

Dear NewToScoutsDad, from AlmostNewToScoutsMom,

 

I totally sympathize and understand your position. I have a younger daughter who had to attend with me when my son's Cub Scout pack needed me last year.

 

My husband often works late, and is often called to work unexpectedly. We have no family where we live now, and I cannot afford to pay a sitter $50 so that I can go volunteer. Therefore, my daughter often accompanied me. She was quiet and well behaved, more so than some of the Tiger Cubs.

 

I think every pack and every troop are a bit different. The comments indicating that younger children of either gender are an annoyance hit me in a sore spot due to the behavior of the leaders of my particular pack. Your mileage may vary.

 

In our pack, only 3 dads volunteer: CM, CC, and the camping coordinator (whose son will bridge this year). Everything else is done by the moms. We all have younger children, boys and girls. Two of the lady volunteers have young babies.

 

After leaving the post of Treasurer this summer (details in other posts), I started volunteering with American Heritage Girls this year on behalf of my daughter. It is a much more pleasant atmosphere in which to volunteer than Cub Scouts was for me. There are some things in AHG culture that I think would be a nice addition to Scouting:

 

1. AHG Troops integrate different ages instead of separating them all the time. This is not to say that the older girls don't get a chance to focus only on themselves and age appropriate activities. They absolutely do.

 

However, it is part of the older girls' training to lead the younger girls in activities from time to time. This fall, the older girls have organized a hike, leading the younger girls. They also organized a sleepover for the girls.

 

I am grateful my 7 year old daughter has these very sharp and professional young ladies of 12-15 or so to look up to. They are wonderful role models. I believe it is also a good teaching experience for the older girls to learn to lead. Isn't leadership a trait Scouts should be learning?

 

2. AHG does a better job of making it easy for parents to volunteer and integrate their other children than the BSA, in my opinion, having volunteered for both groups. My son often accompanies me to his sister's meetings because our family situation requires it. He sometimes participates, as he did with our "box of goodies for the troops" project this week. Sometimes, he works on his homework. Not once has anyone in AHG complained.

 

What the BSA has communicated to me as a parent is that they expect me to be a BSA volunteer first, and a parent to my own kids (all of them) second. I can't do that. I got tired of my daughter being left out. I got her into a program that was good for her, and took my volunteer time along with me. So have many of the other very tired moms in our pack. Maybe some packs and troops are so flush with volunteers that they can afford to make it obnoxious to volunteer for the BSA. I don't really understand the BSA's reasoning.

 

My son's CM and CC both need to pull their heads out. I fully expect they will be looking around in a year with no other volunteers at all dimly trying to figure out what happened and why they're stuck doing everything themselves.

 

My jaw hit the floor when our CC this fall had the gall to call my friend whose son is in my son's den and ask her to do all the shopping for the fall campout (about 100 people). On 24 hours notice. She was 8 1/2 months pregnant at the time with two younger children and was in pain just walking. But, hey, like the CC said, she has a Costco membership and can save the pack money. And she's been way too nice to them for the last two years. She has quit completely as a Scout volunteer. Maybe if they'd been a little more polite and reasonable, she might have been willing to come back. Now, she's pissed and will likely never volunteer for the BSA again, justifiably.

 

So, when I read notes like the one in this thread complaining about how all those pesky younger siblings get in the way and the adult volunteers should make other arrangements so they can put the troop first, I just shake my head and hope the BSA will get a clue before they lose any more adults willing to volunteer.

 

GA Mom

One more person who conflates a bad situation with their local unit to "THE BSA." The pack you were with might be obnoxious, that does not make "The BSA" obnoxious.

[RichardB]

Here is how the FAQ on the subject is worded. Source page: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/gen_faq.aspx And yes, it directly quotes the GTSS. However, to the OP, would you think differently if you had a wolf age or even a 16 yr old daughter? Would you bring her along?......Neither situation is part of the Boy Scout Program, it is just not scouting. There are some specific family oriented events by design - like Day Camp tot lots or PTC where family programming is included. This would not be one of those.

 

Q. Can a leader bring his or her younger children on a troop campout?

A. The Camping section of the Guide to Safe Scouting states:

“If a well-meaning leader brings along a child who does not meet these age guidelines, disservice is done to the unit because of distractions often caused by younger children. A disservice is also done to the child, who is not trained to participate in such an activity and who, as a nonmember of the group, may be ignored by the older campers.â€Â

[moosetracker]

Dear NewToScoutsDad, from AlmostNewToScoutsMom,

 

I totally sympathize and understand your position. I have a younger daughter who had to attend with me when my son's Cub Scout pack needed me last year.

 

My husband often works late, and is often called to work unexpectedly. We have no family where we live now, and I cannot afford to pay a sitter $50 so that I can go volunteer. Therefore, my daughter often accompanied me. She was quiet and well behaved, more so than some of the Tiger Cubs.

 

I think every pack and every troop are a bit different. The comments indicating that younger children of either gender are an annoyance hit me in a sore spot due to the behavior of the leaders of my particular pack. Your mileage may vary.

 

In our pack, only 3 dads volunteer: CM, CC, and the camping coordinator (whose son will bridge this year). Everything else is done by the moms. We all have younger children, boys and girls. Two of the lady volunteers have young babies.

 

After leaving the post of Treasurer this summer (details in other posts), I started volunteering with American Heritage Girls this year on behalf of my daughter. It is a much more pleasant atmosphere in which to volunteer than Cub Scouts was for me. There are some things in AHG culture that I think would be a nice addition to Scouting:

 

1. AHG Troops integrate different ages instead of separating them all the time. This is not to say that the older girls don't get a chance to focus only on themselves and age appropriate activities. They absolutely do.

 

However, it is part of the older girls' training to lead the younger girls in activities from time to time. This fall, the older girls have organized a hike, leading the younger girls. They also organized a sleepover for the girls.

 

I am grateful my 7 year old daughter has these very sharp and professional young ladies of 12-15 or so to look up to. They are wonderful role models. I believe it is also a good teaching experience for the older girls to learn to lead. Isn't leadership a trait Scouts should be learning?

 

2. AHG does a better job of making it easy for parents to volunteer and integrate their other children than the BSA, in my opinion, having volunteered for both groups. My son often accompanies me to his sister's meetings because our family situation requires it. He sometimes participates, as he did with our "box of goodies for the troops" project this week. Sometimes, he works on his homework. Not once has anyone in AHG complained.

 

What the BSA has communicated to me as a parent is that they expect me to be a BSA volunteer first, and a parent to my own kids (all of them) second. I can't do that. I got tired of my daughter being left out. I got her into a program that was good for her, and took my volunteer time along with me. So have many of the other very tired moms in our pack. Maybe some packs and troops are so flush with volunteers that they can afford to make it obnoxious to volunteer for the BSA. I don't really understand the BSA's reasoning.

 

My son's CM and CC both need to pull their heads out. I fully expect they will be looking around in a year with no other volunteers at all dimly trying to figure out what happened and why they're stuck doing everything themselves.

 

My jaw hit the floor when our CC this fall had the gall to call my friend whose son is in my son's den and ask her to do all the shopping for the fall campout (about 100 people). On 24 hours notice. She was 8 1/2 months pregnant at the time with two younger children and was in pain just walking. But, hey, like the CC said, she has a Costco membership and can save the pack money. And she's been way too nice to them for the last two years. She has quit completely as a Scout volunteer. Maybe if they'd been a little more polite and reasonable, she might have been willing to come back. Now, she's pissed and will likely never volunteer for the BSA again, justifiably.

 

So, when I read notes like the one in this thread complaining about how all those pesky younger siblings get in the way and the adult volunteers should make other arrangements so they can put the troop first, I just shake my head and hope the BSA will get a clue before they lose any more adults willing to volunteer.

 

GA Mom

True, and not true.. The SM did not bring along his daughters or under aged sons.. He brought along his boy scout aged sons.. The thing, is that the SM did not do the program for the scouts in the troop, he did it for his sons..

 

The only thing we get from the OP is that he wants to bring his under aged son with him for father/son bonding.. He did not post any reasoning why this was necessary to help the troop out of some crunch, or consider pros and cons of the situation, and come up with some rationalization of why the pros won out.. But, just simply he and his son.. No thought to the effect on the troop at all.

 

When that is all there is to go on, you show the guy the rule book, and that is that.. "NO". Please stay home with your son, if that is what you prefer.

 

PS. The boys nor SM(Dad) were obnoxious. Personally everyone liked them just fine, and all was fine until he took the SM reins.. The SM(Dad) was just not troop oriented, he was family oriented, and that caused a problem.

[BadenP]

Here is how the FAQ on the subject is worded. Source page: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/gen_faq.aspx And yes, it directly quotes the GTSS. However, to the OP, would you think differently if you had a wolf age or even a 16 yr old daughter? Would you bring her along?......Neither situation is part of the Boy Scout Program, it is just not scouting. There are some specific family oriented events by design - like Day Camp tot lots or PTC where family programming is included. This would not be one of those.

 

Q. Can a leader bring his or her younger children on a troop campout?

A. The Camping section of the Guide to Safe Scouting states:

“If a well-meaning leader brings along a child who does not meet these age guidelines, disservice is done to the unit because of distractions often caused by younger children. A disservice is also done to the child, who is not trained to participate in such an activity and who, as a nonmember of the group, may be ignored by the older campers.â€Â

Richard- It is time for you pencil pushers at National to start thinking outside the small box in determining what is and what is not scouting. National has created so many new superfluous rules and regulations that you are choking the life out of the ever shrinking scouting program. The GTSS is so poorly written and full of nonsense that is little more than a joke. How about you let the people in the field delivering the program have much more say and control in these type of situations. There are simple practical solutions to this and most other situations in scouting without the need to create more and more unenforceable and impractical rules at the National level.

[moosetracker]

Here is how the FAQ on the subject is worded. Source page: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/gen_faq.aspx And yes, it directly quotes the GTSS. However, to the OP, would you think differently if you had a wolf age or even a 16 yr old daughter? Would you bring her along?......Neither situation is part of the Boy Scout Program, it is just not scouting. There are some specific family oriented events by design - like Day Camp tot lots or PTC where family programming is included. This would not be one of those.

 

Q. Can a leader bring his or her younger children on a troop campout?

A. The Camping section of the Guide to Safe Scouting states:

“If a well-meaning leader brings along a child who does not meet these age guidelines, disservice is done to the unit because of distractions often caused by younger children. A disservice is also done to the child, who is not trained to participate in such an activity and who, as a nonmember of the group, may be ignored by the older campers.â€Â

BP This rule is definitely not new, and really if you read it. It doesn't say you cannot... period... It just says it is discouraged, because it is not healthy for the troop or the under aged youth..

 

Therefore, if you want to ruin your troop with pack level campouts, go ahead.. But, basically National really sees things more the way myself and Eagle92 see it.. It really should be used as a last resort, that the boys can not go on a trip without the parent with youth in tow..

 

So you have the control and the say.

[moosetracker]

It's weird even though there have been others who have written after RichardB, he stays displayed as the last person to make a comment. I don't have anything to add, just seeing if a new message rather then a comment to RichardB will kick it out of being hung up on Richard.

[Sentinel947]

Here is how the FAQ on the subject is worded. Source page: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/gen_faq.aspx And yes, it directly quotes the GTSS. However, to the OP, would you think differently if you had a wolf age or even a 16 yr old daughter? Would you bring her along?......Neither situation is part of the Boy Scout Program, it is just not scouting. There are some specific family oriented events by design - like Day Camp tot lots or PTC where family programming is included. This would not be one of those.

 

Q. Can a leader bring his or her younger children on a troop campout?

A. The Camping section of the Guide to Safe Scouting states:

“If a well-meaning leader brings along a child who does not meet these age guidelines, disservice is done to the unit because of distractions often caused by younger children. A disservice is also done to the child, who is not trained to participate in such an activity and who, as a nonmember of the group, may be ignored by the older campers.â€Â

When I was a Scout I found it annoying when siblings tagged along. But the leaders allowed it. Now as an ASM, if bringing a non scout youth along is the only way to deliver the trip I'd say that's a fair exception. But by and large I agree with moose.