Troop Trouble Maker . . .

[fred johnson]

Sometimes it's hard to punish the right person. We used to teach our son that it's usually the person who reacts who gets punished. As such, we tried to teach our son to stand up for himself but not necessarily to fight back.

 

I think something similar is needed here. The broken situation needs to be made whole by the person who did the act performing some form of restitution to the person who was damaged. Or some reasonable and timely substitute.

 

But as for the instigator ... the kid who sews the trouble ... I'd approach that both individually (one on one) and also as a whole troop.

 

Scoutmaster minutes? Talks? Character building. Anti-bullying videos. Other. The other scouts need to learn to think for themselves, to recognize the manipulation and to call people on it.

[KenDavis500]

James needs to use his powers for good. Personal interest from the SM in the form of informal SM conferences to deal with the immediate issue. But then encourage him to be PL.

[qwazse]

~Now the Committee wants to remove the rank of the current PL ---- What do I do now?

 

I hope by "rank" you really mean his title/position of PL, and not his BSA rank (2nd Class, 1st Class, Star, etc). Once a BSA rank has been awarded - no one - except the BSA National office, has the ability to remove it.

 

Certainly not your Troop's committee.

 

Talk to your Scoutmaster - NOW.

 

BTW - what was done with Alex for his multiple incidents of shoving, and (especially) Jacob for shoving, stabbing, tripping, stealing, and punching?

 

James might have incited the incidents, but these boys were the ones to actually demonstrate, CLEARLY, what it means to NOT live by the Scout Oath and Law. The excuse of someone else "making" them act like aggressive bullies does not fly in my book. It was THEIR choice to act the way they did.

Do these parents get that it's the SM's call when elections happen? It's his call about which troop customs to uphold/amend. The ASMs assist him. Period.

Typically it's the boys who vote their leaders, and leaders don't get removed lightly.

[Oldscout448]

Have the troop committee watch Eddie Haskel on the old Leave it to Beaver show. Eddie was the best behaved, most polite kid on the planet, whenever a parent was watching. In real life he was a cheating, lying, backstabber who took a perverse pleasure in stirring up trouble. I am not saying that James = Eddie but such people do exist. They are smart, charming, and very very good at not getting caught

This needs to be stopped now, if James follows the typical pattern he will need to keep upping the ante to keep getting his thrills.

He seems to be targeting the weakest while trying to undermine the PL so he can take over. ( Warning bells going off here )

You need to tell his parents that one more and James is gone. No appeals no second chances. As scouters the safety of the scouts is our primary concern. Not just the other scouts but James as well. If this keeps up, one of the bigger scouts is going to figure out that James has played him for a fool and give him a pounding that may well be deserved. But it will be hard to explain to James' parents why their little darling has a broken nose and two black eyes. You are also going to be loosing scouts if this keeps up. If I were the scout who had been stabbed and flattened I would not be back. You will also have no choice but to land hard on the scout who did the pounding deserved or not. This kid needs help and unless you have a degree in abnormal psychology its well above a scouters pay grade.

James as a PL is just giving him more power to plot and manipulate

Been there, twice, once as a scout, trying to keep from getting hurt, twenty years later as a scouter, trying to stop it, it was not pretty either time

[NeverAnEagle]

Agreed its SM/Parent time, but as ASM for stabbing with a pencil and drawing blood I would have confiscated the Totin Chit and not worried about corners.

Taking someones crutches is quite un-scout-behaviour. Special class on 1st Aid maybe? No hazzing I know, I have old school ideas ...

 

In 2.5 years as a leader we/I only ever had 1 scout that was removed from the troop (Leaders decided, told the Committee who told the parents).

But that is and should only be the very last resort.

 

So how to manipulate a lil manipilator to stop manipulating? ...

perdidochas:

Two of use were removed when it was made public that we aren't Christian.

One was removed because she was teaching a sex education class for the teens at the local Unitarian Church. (Fortunately, Council hasn't figured out that Unitarian's aren't necessary christian, so as it stands now her only transgression is teaching a sex education class.)

The last was a teacher at the Local Catholic school. One of the students brought a gun to school, showed the kids in the class, and threatened to kill him because he was failing history. He's a former Marine, so when the kid put him in a head lock, he turned it around and pinned the kid, and held him until the police showed up. He was fired for "inappropriate contact with a student." Basically, the kids' dad is a bigwig in town that donates a lot of money to the school; he threatened to have his kid removed and pull funding, so they got rid of the teacher instead. No charges were filed and the police stated that he acted in self-defense, but word got back to Council and they put him on the "deviants list" like the rest of us because he has a record of "inappropriate contact with a minor."

 

We aren't a big troop and the four of us that were removed are parents of 9 boys. The only people left to fill leadership positions are the parents of the new boys.

[ScoutNut]

Agreed its SM/Parent time, but as ASM for stabbing with a pencil and drawing blood I would have confiscated the Totin Chit and not worried about corners.

Taking someones crutches is quite un-scout-behaviour. Special class on 1st Aid maybe? No hazzing I know, I have old school ideas ...

 

In 2.5 years as a leader we/I only ever had 1 scout that was removed from the troop (Leaders decided, told the Committee who told the parents).

But that is and should only be the very last resort.

 

So how to manipulate a lil manipilator to stop manipulating? ...

The only way a BSA Council can "remove" a unit's leaders is to take away their BSA membership completely. This is RARELY done, and only when the volunteers have SERIOUSLY crossed the line for membership standards - youth protection, criminal activities, etc.

 

What is your Charter Organization? Are you LDS? The organization that holds your BSA charter, and owns your unit, can "hire", and "fire", it's volunteers at any time, for any (or no) reason.

 

It seems there is a rather messy/involved backstory here. Without a Scoutmaster a Troop can not function well. This one sounds like it is turning into a Cub Scout group for older boys - if it has not been that way all along.

 

I strongly advise you to take your sons and find a BSA Troop that actually delivers the BSA Boy Scout program.

[NeverAnEagle]

Have the troop committee watch Eddie Haskel on the old Leave it to Beaver show. Eddie was the best behaved, most polite kid on the planet, whenever a parent was watching. In real life he was a cheating, lying, backstabber who took a perverse pleasure in stirring up trouble. I am not saying that James = Eddie but such people do exist. They are smart, charming, and very very good at not getting caught

This needs to be stopped now, if James follows the typical pattern he will need to keep upping the ante to keep getting his thrills.

He seems to be targeting the weakest while trying to undermine the PL so he can take over. ( Warning bells going off here )

You need to tell his parents that one more and James is gone. No appeals no second chances. As scouters the safety of the scouts is our primary concern. Not just the other scouts but James as well. If this keeps up, one of the bigger scouts is going to figure out that James has played him for a fool and give him a pounding that may well be deserved. But it will be hard to explain to James' parents why their little darling has a broken nose and two black eyes. You are also going to be loosing scouts if this keeps up. If I were the scout who had been stabbed and flattened I would not be back. You will also have no choice but to land hard on the scout who did the pounding deserved or not. This kid needs help and unless you have a degree in abnormal psychology its well above a scouters pay grade.

James as a PL is just giving him more power to plot and manipulate

Been there, twice, once as a scout, trying to keep from getting hurt, twenty years later as a scouter, trying to stop it, it was not pretty either time

We do a movie night in December, I'll see if I can find this.

[NeverAnEagle]

Agreed its SM/Parent time, but as ASM for stabbing with a pencil and drawing blood I would have confiscated the Totin Chit and not worried about corners.

Taking someones crutches is quite un-scout-behaviour. Special class on 1st Aid maybe? No hazzing I know, I have old school ideas ...

 

In 2.5 years as a leader we/I only ever had 1 scout that was removed from the troop (Leaders decided, told the Committee who told the parents).

But that is and should only be the very last resort.

 

So how to manipulate a lil manipilator to stop manipulating? ...

Our CO is Methodist.

The CO wanted to keep the leaders, but Council said that if their names appear on the Charter, they will revoke the Charter and there won't be a unit at all.

 

We used to have a really strong unit; we were the misfits who were kicked out of the Catholic troop, or not allowed in the LDS or protestant troops. We have taken 10 day backpacking trips in a couple national parks, took the boys for a week of sailing on 25 foot sail boats, gone white water rafting, etc. But above all, we allowed the boys their quirks, so we have some odd traditions. We started attending events out of council and submitting photo's of the boys achievements to the newspaper. We started to draw attention, then. We used to joke that whenever anyone had to call the council office for anything the secretary would be rolling her eye's and announcing, "It's THAT troop again."

 

Last April we got our first group of scouts that were mainline Christian; them and their parents have been trouble ever since. Council wouldn't have known Sally was teaching sex ed at the UUC, except one of the new parents was offended and told them. Council wouldn't have known about Dale and the incident at the school because it was kept out of the papers and no charges were filed, except one of the new parents told them.

[Oldscout448]

Agreed its SM/Parent time, but as ASM for stabbing with a pencil and drawing blood I would have confiscated the Totin Chit and not worried about corners.

Taking someones crutches is quite un-scout-behaviour. Special class on 1st Aid maybe? No hazzing I know, I have old school ideas ...

 

In 2.5 years as a leader we/I only ever had 1 scout that was removed from the troop (Leaders decided, told the Committee who told the parents).

But that is and should only be the very last resort.

 

So how to manipulate a lil manipilator to stop manipulating? ...

Sheesh and I thought James was your biggest problem. I'm afraid I don't understand, I have been in and around "mainline" christians all my life, attended Baptist, Assembly of God, Methodist, and some others. What does taking a gun away from a student have to do with being fit to be an ASM or whatever he was? What does it have to do with being a christian? Sounds to me like the kind of guy I want to camp with! Or do the new parents want the troop to consist of just them and their kids? if so why didnt they just go and start their own?

[moosetracker]

Agreed its SM/Parent time, but as ASM for stabbing with a pencil and drawing blood I would have confiscated the Totin Chit and not worried about corners.

Taking someones crutches is quite un-scout-behaviour. Special class on 1st Aid maybe? No hazzing I know, I have old school ideas ...

 

In 2.5 years as a leader we/I only ever had 1 scout that was removed from the troop (Leaders decided, told the Committee who told the parents).

But that is and should only be the very last resort.

 

So how to manipulate a lil manipilator to stop manipulating? ...

Seems like Those controlling your council should have stormed out to that Trails Life group if they are going to be all uptighty, and think the youth program should only allow Christian Adult Leadership.. Sounds like they would fit in there, but are trying to force BSA to be what it is not.

[Oldscout448]

Agreed its SM/Parent time, but as ASM for stabbing with a pencil and drawing blood I would have confiscated the Totin Chit and not worried about corners.

Taking someones crutches is quite un-scout-behaviour. Special class on 1st Aid maybe? No hazzing I know, I have old school ideas ...

 

In 2.5 years as a leader we/I only ever had 1 scout that was removed from the troop (Leaders decided, told the Committee who told the parents).

But that is and should only be the very last resort.

 

So how to manipulate a lil manipilator to stop manipulating? ...

I agree moose. or perhaps tried the AoG Royal Rangers program.

[ScoutNut]

Agreed its SM/Parent time, but as ASM for stabbing with a pencil and drawing blood I would have confiscated the Totin Chit and not worried about corners.

Taking someones crutches is quite un-scout-behaviour. Special class on 1st Aid maybe? No hazzing I know, I have old school ideas ...

 

In 2.5 years as a leader we/I only ever had 1 scout that was removed from the troop (Leaders decided, told the Committee who told the parents).

But that is and should only be the very last resort.

 

So how to manipulate a lil manipilator to stop manipulating? ...

Something is rather fishy here. BSA is NOT a strictly CHRISTIAN organization. They make a big deal about being open to ALL types of religious organizations. However they DO insist that you - at the very least - believe in SOME SORT of god, or higher power.

 

From the BSA's Declaration of Religious Principal on it's Adult Application - "The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to these precepts from the Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of leadership."

 

BSA's Charter/Bylaws/Rules/Regulations further state - "The activities of the members of the Boy Scouts of America shall be carried on under conditions which show respect to the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion, as required by the twelfth point of the Scout Law, reading, "Reverent.A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others." "

 

So, you, and the other leaders, could NOT have had your BSA memberships revoked simply because you were not Christian - or even not "mainline" Christian. If your BSA memberships were revoked for religious reasons it HAD to have been because you are NOT religious in any way. In other words - because you are atheists.

 

Also, teaching sex education, is not against BSA Youth Protection guidelines. It will NOT get you "labeled a deviant". If that were the case, there would be many a teacher on that list, as that is part of the health curriculum at many schools (public and private) across the country.

 

Finally, I find the whole gun story to be rather strange too. I know of NO school (again - public or private) that condones weapons being brought onto the premises. Especially not a loaded gun! Any school that had a child who brought a loaded gun to school, threatened to kill people, and physically assaulted a teacher, would not be worried that the kid's father would pull him from the school. The school, not to mention the police, would do that for him. They would not usually keep the kid, and fire the teacher that kept himself, and the students, from being shot to death!

[moosetracker]

Agreed its SM/Parent time, but as ASM for stabbing with a pencil and drawing blood I would have confiscated the Totin Chit and not worried about corners.

Taking someones crutches is quite un-scout-behaviour. Special class on 1st Aid maybe? No hazzing I know, I have old school ideas ...

 

In 2.5 years as a leader we/I only ever had 1 scout that was removed from the troop (Leaders decided, told the Committee who told the parents).

But that is and should only be the very last resort.

 

So how to manipulate a lil manipilator to stop manipulating? ...

Yeah, but lots of Councils do things that are not according to National rules. And when you have a bunch of holy-rollers they can be the worst. But, we also have the councils that have executives not putting donated money into the program, but use it to buy fancy houses and cars etc.. You have the ones that falsify the number of units and scouts they are servicing.

 

I think I remember NeverAnEagle talking about this on another thread, but I thought they targeted just him personally, not his whole troop leadership. I think NeverAnEagle has a belief, but it is not a specific non-Christian religion like being Jewish or Mormon.. It is just a personal belief system..

[qwazse]

Agreed its SM/Parent time, but as ASM for stabbing with a pencil and drawing blood I would have confiscated the Totin Chit and not worried about corners.

Taking someones crutches is quite un-scout-behaviour. Special class on 1st Aid maybe? No hazzing I know, I have old school ideas ...

 

In 2.5 years as a leader we/I only ever had 1 scout that was removed from the troop (Leaders decided, told the Committee who told the parents).

But that is and should only be the very last resort.

 

So how to manipulate a lil manipilator to stop manipulating? ...

Like I teach the kids in my youh group, steer clear of Christiena. They're a vicious lot who'll ruin your walk with Jesus if you let them.

 

 

 

Some concerned individuals threatened to do the same thing to my unit if a particular adult was stayed on my roster. The person didn't want any trouble, but I concluded cow-towing would invite more trouble, so I recharted with no dropping anyone. Lots of ranting to H.Q., calls from HQ, me writing a succinct letter of the facts for the record, and making clear to my DE that no positions would change. We're still here years later.

 

Your mileage may vary.

[perdidochas]

Agreed its SM/Parent time, but as ASM for stabbing with a pencil and drawing blood I would have confiscated the Totin Chit and not worried about corners.

Taking someones crutches is quite un-scout-behaviour. Special class on 1st Aid maybe? No hazzing I know, I have old school ideas ...

 

In 2.5 years as a leader we/I only ever had 1 scout that was removed from the troop (Leaders decided, told the Committee who told the parents).

But that is and should only be the very last resort.

 

So how to manipulate a lil manipilator to stop manipulating? ...

Wow, not sure how a council can get away with such stuff. I'm a devout Catholic and the Troop I'm ASM in is chartered by my church, but I would have no problem with any religious person of any religion being a leader with me, provided that they had the other qualifications. Ironically, I think the CO should have the right to make the decision about leadership and their religion, but clearly the Council does not. BSA is not a Christian organization, it's a youth organization with religious overtones.

 

In terms of the former marine teacher, that's the danger of working in private schools. They follow the Golden rule, which is that the person with the gold makes the rules.