Bank Account

[Sentinel947]

Brewmeister wrote: "GM, It says right in the document that you posted that units do not need to file a tax return."

 

Yes, I know. I posted the BSA financial guidelines to show the OP that his DE isn't even quoting his own organization's two page rulebook correctly, which puts the DE's competence in serious question.

 

I have stated previously that much of the BSA's advice to units and volunteers about federal taxes is wrong. Some of the BSA's advice agrees with federal tax law (like the part about not using a volunteer's SS# for pack finances). Some BSA advice goes directly against federal tax law, like what I was told by the BSA and our pack leaders about how it was ok for our pack income to not be included in any tax filings at all.

 

At least I knew from my previous experience with the IRS that the BSA and my pack leaders were telling me wrong. If that makes me "paranoid", fine. At least I have sense enough to learn after being burned once.

 

I have previously posted the links to the IRS documentation that anyone who can sign a check for the pack is a "responsible party", and personally liable for unfiled and unpaid taxes. It is true that the charter organization is supposed to file them on behalf of the pack, and most do. Packs generally do not file taxes because they are a part of the charter org, and the charter org includes the pack's finances in the CO"s 990 return.

 

The catch with my pack is that the charter org had *no treasurer at all* during the year I served. The treasurer moved out of state unexpectedly and it took them months to replace her. No one was in the chair to file the taxes at all. No one could sign checks either. Our CO (PTA) was a complete royal mess. The entire PTA board quit in a snit and just left the school hanging with programs unfunded. Our school's fall festival had to be called off this fall, to the great disappointment of the kids, due to the total mismanagement of last year's board.

 

Maybe all of you are dealing with responsible CO's that file taxes and take care of finances in a sane way. I was not that lucky.

 

So, knowing that there was no one at all at the PTA signing checks or filing taxes last spring, and knowing that I was personally liable if the pack's taxes were not filed (having been told to my face by an IRS agent) -- I checked to find out if anyone upstream at the PTA was filing taxes on behalf of the nonexistent treasurer and the board members who all resigned. Not only had last year's taxes not been filed, no one at the PTA had filed taxes on behalf of the pack all the way back to 2006, when it was founded.

 

So, I showed all this, including the IRS documentation to the pack leaders, and was again told to shut up.

 

So, I went to a qualified and licensed tax advisor (CPA) on my own time and my own dime to get real advice. I was told that I should send the correct figures in writing to all parties (PTA, BSA, and pack) and ask them to file the taxes, which I did. This got me an angry call from the BSA letting me know they were very angry all the way up to the state level.

 

Now, if the CO is supposed to file the taxes for the pack, I find it really hard to understand why it would be a bad thing to send the final year's income and expense numbers to the CO for them to file the taxes for the pack as they are supposed to do, but anyhoo....

 

"The CO is supposed to file the taxes for the pack, but you can't send them the numbers to file the taxes with...." ???

 

So, hey, no matter how ugly things get, I will go right on telling people to get a CPA to advise them on how to file the taxes and protect themselves personally if they choose to be BSA treasurers. If y'all want to poke the hive because you haven't been stung yet, y'all go right ahead. I have been pounded by the IRS once, for no other reason than the people who gave birth to me cheated the government. I have no need to be pounded again.

 

The people at the BSA council are not educated to tell me about my personal tax liability, nor are they licensed in my state to give me tax advice. Most of them can't even quote their own two page, error filled document correctly. I don't give a crap what they say.

 

GeorgiaMom

Basementdweller, your accusation is unfounded, please stop.

 

 

 

GeorgiaMom, I think your case is a rarity. It's not necessarily an authoritative treatsie on the matter. While the BSA professionals can be wrong from time to time (Ok.... alot of the time) they generally know what they are talking about. Talking to a CPA should be unnecessary if the Charter Organization does it's job.

 

 

 

This is a forum of Scout Leaders, lets be a little more courteous and kind to one another.

 

Sentinel947.

[GeorgiaMom]

Brewmeister wrote: "GM, It says right in the document that you posted that units do not need to file a tax return."

 

Yes, I know. I posted the BSA financial guidelines to show the OP that his DE isn't even quoting his own organization's two page rulebook correctly, which puts the DE's competence in serious question.

 

I have stated previously that much of the BSA's advice to units and volunteers about federal taxes is wrong. Some of the BSA's advice agrees with federal tax law (like the part about not using a volunteer's SS# for pack finances). Some BSA advice goes directly against federal tax law, like what I was told by the BSA and our pack leaders about how it was ok for our pack income to not be included in any tax filings at all.

 

At least I knew from my previous experience with the IRS that the BSA and my pack leaders were telling me wrong. If that makes me "paranoid", fine. At least I have sense enough to learn after being burned once.

 

I have previously posted the links to the IRS documentation that anyone who can sign a check for the pack is a "responsible party", and personally liable for unfiled and unpaid taxes. It is true that the charter organization is supposed to file them on behalf of the pack, and most do. Packs generally do not file taxes because they are a part of the charter org, and the charter org includes the pack's finances in the CO"s 990 return.

 

The catch with my pack is that the charter org had *no treasurer at all* during the year I served. The treasurer moved out of state unexpectedly and it took them months to replace her. No one was in the chair to file the taxes at all. No one could sign checks either. Our CO (PTA) was a complete royal mess. The entire PTA board quit in a snit and just left the school hanging with programs unfunded. Our school's fall festival had to be called off this fall, to the great disappointment of the kids, due to the total mismanagement of last year's board.

 

Maybe all of you are dealing with responsible CO's that file taxes and take care of finances in a sane way. I was not that lucky.

 

So, knowing that there was no one at all at the PTA signing checks or filing taxes last spring, and knowing that I was personally liable if the pack's taxes were not filed (having been told to my face by an IRS agent) -- I checked to find out if anyone upstream at the PTA was filing taxes on behalf of the nonexistent treasurer and the board members who all resigned. Not only had last year's taxes not been filed, no one at the PTA had filed taxes on behalf of the pack all the way back to 2006, when it was founded.

 

So, I showed all this, including the IRS documentation to the pack leaders, and was again told to shut up.

 

So, I went to a qualified and licensed tax advisor (CPA) on my own time and my own dime to get real advice. I was told that I should send the correct figures in writing to all parties (PTA, BSA, and pack) and ask them to file the taxes, which I did. This got me an angry call from the BSA letting me know they were very angry all the way up to the state level.

 

Now, if the CO is supposed to file the taxes for the pack, I find it really hard to understand why it would be a bad thing to send the final year's income and expense numbers to the CO for them to file the taxes for the pack as they are supposed to do, but anyhoo....

 

"The CO is supposed to file the taxes for the pack, but you can't send them the numbers to file the taxes with...." ???

 

So, hey, no matter how ugly things get, I will go right on telling people to get a CPA to advise them on how to file the taxes and protect themselves personally if they choose to be BSA treasurers. If y'all want to poke the hive because you haven't been stung yet, y'all go right ahead. I have been pounded by the IRS once, for no other reason than the people who gave birth to me cheated the government. I have no need to be pounded again.

 

The people at the BSA council are not educated to tell me about my personal tax liability, nor are they licensed in my state to give me tax advice. Most of them can't even quote their own two page, error filled document correctly. I don't give a crap what they say.

 

GeorgiaMom

Thank you, Sentinel947. I do agree that what happened to me was unusual. However, it does point out flaws in the system. Considering the severity of the consequences for getting the tax filings wrong, I think it's good to know where the pitfalls are if a volunteer agrees to be a treasurer. I say this as a person who was living in her car after the IRS got finished the first time.

 

I don't believe most volunteers realize they are taking on a legal responsibility to the IRS on behalf of the pack or the troop when they agree to sign checks for the unit. I was not told this by the BSA or the CO, nor is it stated in any of their guidelines. I only knew because of past experience.

 

You're correct to say that my experience may not be representative of other units or CO's. I definitely got a perfect storm of failures at both.

 

I can say that I am tremendously disappointed in my Council and my District. When I approached them with the issues at the unit/CO level, I was told to stop talking about the matter with anyone. When I got professional advice from a licensed tax preparer and followed it, in the absence of help after requests to the Council and District, I got a very angry call at my home. It was totally unprofessional and out of line. If this is how professional Scouters handle a serious concern from a volunteer, then no thanks. I've taken my volunteer time elsewhere this year.

 

I wasn't sure my son and I would even be welcome back at the pack in the fall. I can say that I believe there is a pervasive problem at the BSA with their systematic shifting of legal responsibility to volunteers, who may not realize what they're taking on.

 

The entire charter system is designed to shift legal responsibility to the CO's and the units. The BSA goes to great lengths to make sure they are not responsible for anything. So, when things go wrong, who gets left holding the bag? Sometimes, the individual volunteer. I doubt many BSA volunteers realize that.

 

All this to say to the newbie treasurer that gave the OP: check everything for yourself. Don't assume that anyone at the CO, the unit, or the BSA has been handling the finances correctly. Check it for yourself because you are the one ultimately responsible to the IRS if others before you haven't been responsible.

 

GeorgiaMom

[dedkad]

Brewmeister wrote: "GM, It says right in the document that you posted that units do not need to file a tax return."

 

Yes, I know. I posted the BSA financial guidelines to show the OP that his DE isn't even quoting his own organization's two page rulebook correctly, which puts the DE's competence in serious question.

 

I have stated previously that much of the BSA's advice to units and volunteers about federal taxes is wrong. Some of the BSA's advice agrees with federal tax law (like the part about not using a volunteer's SS# for pack finances). Some BSA advice goes directly against federal tax law, like what I was told by the BSA and our pack leaders about how it was ok for our pack income to not be included in any tax filings at all.

 

At least I knew from my previous experience with the IRS that the BSA and my pack leaders were telling me wrong. If that makes me "paranoid", fine. At least I have sense enough to learn after being burned once.

 

I have previously posted the links to the IRS documentation that anyone who can sign a check for the pack is a "responsible party", and personally liable for unfiled and unpaid taxes. It is true that the charter organization is supposed to file them on behalf of the pack, and most do. Packs generally do not file taxes because they are a part of the charter org, and the charter org includes the pack's finances in the CO"s 990 return.

 

The catch with my pack is that the charter org had *no treasurer at all* during the year I served. The treasurer moved out of state unexpectedly and it took them months to replace her. No one was in the chair to file the taxes at all. No one could sign checks either. Our CO (PTA) was a complete royal mess. The entire PTA board quit in a snit and just left the school hanging with programs unfunded. Our school's fall festival had to be called off this fall, to the great disappointment of the kids, due to the total mismanagement of last year's board.

 

Maybe all of you are dealing with responsible CO's that file taxes and take care of finances in a sane way. I was not that lucky.

 

So, knowing that there was no one at all at the PTA signing checks or filing taxes last spring, and knowing that I was personally liable if the pack's taxes were not filed (having been told to my face by an IRS agent) -- I checked to find out if anyone upstream at the PTA was filing taxes on behalf of the nonexistent treasurer and the board members who all resigned. Not only had last year's taxes not been filed, no one at the PTA had filed taxes on behalf of the pack all the way back to 2006, when it was founded.

 

So, I showed all this, including the IRS documentation to the pack leaders, and was again told to shut up.

 

So, I went to a qualified and licensed tax advisor (CPA) on my own time and my own dime to get real advice. I was told that I should send the correct figures in writing to all parties (PTA, BSA, and pack) and ask them to file the taxes, which I did. This got me an angry call from the BSA letting me know they were very angry all the way up to the state level.

 

Now, if the CO is supposed to file the taxes for the pack, I find it really hard to understand why it would be a bad thing to send the final year's income and expense numbers to the CO for them to file the taxes for the pack as they are supposed to do, but anyhoo....

 

"The CO is supposed to file the taxes for the pack, but you can't send them the numbers to file the taxes with...." ???

 

So, hey, no matter how ugly things get, I will go right on telling people to get a CPA to advise them on how to file the taxes and protect themselves personally if they choose to be BSA treasurers. If y'all want to poke the hive because you haven't been stung yet, y'all go right ahead. I have been pounded by the IRS once, for no other reason than the people who gave birth to me cheated the government. I have no need to be pounded again.

 

The people at the BSA council are not educated to tell me about my personal tax liability, nor are they licensed in my state to give me tax advice. Most of them can't even quote their own two page, error filled document correctly. I don't give a crap what they say.

 

GeorgiaMom

GeorgiaMom says: "The entire charter system is designed to shift legal responsibility to the CO's and the units. The BSA goes to great lengths to make sure they are not responsible for anything. So, when things go wrong, who gets left holding the bag? Sometimes, the individual volunteer. I doubt many BSA volunteers realize that."

 

Please provide an actual example of when a BSA volunteer was found liable.

[Basementdweller]

Brewmeister wrote: "GM, It says right in the document that you posted that units do not need to file a tax return."

 

Yes, I know. I posted the BSA financial guidelines to show the OP that his DE isn't even quoting his own organization's two page rulebook correctly, which puts the DE's competence in serious question.

 

I have stated previously that much of the BSA's advice to units and volunteers about federal taxes is wrong. Some of the BSA's advice agrees with federal tax law (like the part about not using a volunteer's SS# for pack finances). Some BSA advice goes directly against federal tax law, like what I was told by the BSA and our pack leaders about how it was ok for our pack income to not be included in any tax filings at all.

 

At least I knew from my previous experience with the IRS that the BSA and my pack leaders were telling me wrong. If that makes me "paranoid", fine. At least I have sense enough to learn after being burned once.

 

I have previously posted the links to the IRS documentation that anyone who can sign a check for the pack is a "responsible party", and personally liable for unfiled and unpaid taxes. It is true that the charter organization is supposed to file them on behalf of the pack, and most do. Packs generally do not file taxes because they are a part of the charter org, and the charter org includes the pack's finances in the CO"s 990 return.

 

The catch with my pack is that the charter org had *no treasurer at all* during the year I served. The treasurer moved out of state unexpectedly and it took them months to replace her. No one was in the chair to file the taxes at all. No one could sign checks either. Our CO (PTA) was a complete royal mess. The entire PTA board quit in a snit and just left the school hanging with programs unfunded. Our school's fall festival had to be called off this fall, to the great disappointment of the kids, due to the total mismanagement of last year's board.

 

Maybe all of you are dealing with responsible CO's that file taxes and take care of finances in a sane way. I was not that lucky.

 

So, knowing that there was no one at all at the PTA signing checks or filing taxes last spring, and knowing that I was personally liable if the pack's taxes were not filed (having been told to my face by an IRS agent) -- I checked to find out if anyone upstream at the PTA was filing taxes on behalf of the nonexistent treasurer and the board members who all resigned. Not only had last year's taxes not been filed, no one at the PTA had filed taxes on behalf of the pack all the way back to 2006, when it was founded.

 

So, I showed all this, including the IRS documentation to the pack leaders, and was again told to shut up.

 

So, I went to a qualified and licensed tax advisor (CPA) on my own time and my own dime to get real advice. I was told that I should send the correct figures in writing to all parties (PTA, BSA, and pack) and ask them to file the taxes, which I did. This got me an angry call from the BSA letting me know they were very angry all the way up to the state level.

 

Now, if the CO is supposed to file the taxes for the pack, I find it really hard to understand why it would be a bad thing to send the final year's income and expense numbers to the CO for them to file the taxes for the pack as they are supposed to do, but anyhoo....

 

"The CO is supposed to file the taxes for the pack, but you can't send them the numbers to file the taxes with...." ???

 

So, hey, no matter how ugly things get, I will go right on telling people to get a CPA to advise them on how to file the taxes and protect themselves personally if they choose to be BSA treasurers. If y'all want to poke the hive because you haven't been stung yet, y'all go right ahead. I have been pounded by the IRS once, for no other reason than the people who gave birth to me cheated the government. I have no need to be pounded again.

 

The people at the BSA council are not educated to tell me about my personal tax liability, nor are they licensed in my state to give me tax advice. Most of them can't even quote their own two page, error filled document correctly. I don't give a crap what they say.

 

GeorgiaMom

Seriously sentinel.....

 

Are you actually reading her posts.......

 

Pure self serving paranoia........If I was that worried about protecting myself......I would never leave my house.

 

but no........I haul a bunch of 11-15 years old out backpacking and rappelling........I see that as a more risky venture than IRS looking at my units books.

[frankpalazzi]

At the close of each calendar year, I send complete financials (bank ledgers, copies of statements, and committee financial reports) to the CO. I do it via Registered Mail and retain the receipt. In 21 years, I have yet to have a problem. And If I did, I'd simply produce a copy of the receipt, and the documents I sent. Ball Game Over. Troop/Pack finances should never be a reason for a treasurer to have to live in their car. If it is, you have TOO MUCH MONEY!

 

Raise what you need, and spend what you raise. Follow that mantra, and you'll never be wrong.

[Sentinel947]

Brewmeister wrote: "GM, It says right in the document that you posted that units do not need to file a tax return."

 

Yes, I know. I posted the BSA financial guidelines to show the OP that his DE isn't even quoting his own organization's two page rulebook correctly, which puts the DE's competence in serious question.

 

I have stated previously that much of the BSA's advice to units and volunteers about federal taxes is wrong. Some of the BSA's advice agrees with federal tax law (like the part about not using a volunteer's SS# for pack finances). Some BSA advice goes directly against federal tax law, like what I was told by the BSA and our pack leaders about how it was ok for our pack income to not be included in any tax filings at all.

 

At least I knew from my previous experience with the IRS that the BSA and my pack leaders were telling me wrong. If that makes me "paranoid", fine. At least I have sense enough to learn after being burned once.

 

I have previously posted the links to the IRS documentation that anyone who can sign a check for the pack is a "responsible party", and personally liable for unfiled and unpaid taxes. It is true that the charter organization is supposed to file them on behalf of the pack, and most do. Packs generally do not file taxes because they are a part of the charter org, and the charter org includes the pack's finances in the CO"s 990 return.

 

The catch with my pack is that the charter org had *no treasurer at all* during the year I served. The treasurer moved out of state unexpectedly and it took them months to replace her. No one was in the chair to file the taxes at all. No one could sign checks either. Our CO (PTA) was a complete royal mess. The entire PTA board quit in a snit and just left the school hanging with programs unfunded. Our school's fall festival had to be called off this fall, to the great disappointment of the kids, due to the total mismanagement of last year's board.

 

Maybe all of you are dealing with responsible CO's that file taxes and take care of finances in a sane way. I was not that lucky.

 

So, knowing that there was no one at all at the PTA signing checks or filing taxes last spring, and knowing that I was personally liable if the pack's taxes were not filed (having been told to my face by an IRS agent) -- I checked to find out if anyone upstream at the PTA was filing taxes on behalf of the nonexistent treasurer and the board members who all resigned. Not only had last year's taxes not been filed, no one at the PTA had filed taxes on behalf of the pack all the way back to 2006, when it was founded.

 

So, I showed all this, including the IRS documentation to the pack leaders, and was again told to shut up.

 

So, I went to a qualified and licensed tax advisor (CPA) on my own time and my own dime to get real advice. I was told that I should send the correct figures in writing to all parties (PTA, BSA, and pack) and ask them to file the taxes, which I did. This got me an angry call from the BSA letting me know they were very angry all the way up to the state level.

 

Now, if the CO is supposed to file the taxes for the pack, I find it really hard to understand why it would be a bad thing to send the final year's income and expense numbers to the CO for them to file the taxes for the pack as they are supposed to do, but anyhoo....

 

"The CO is supposed to file the taxes for the pack, but you can't send them the numbers to file the taxes with...." ???

 

So, hey, no matter how ugly things get, I will go right on telling people to get a CPA to advise them on how to file the taxes and protect themselves personally if they choose to be BSA treasurers. If y'all want to poke the hive because you haven't been stung yet, y'all go right ahead. I have been pounded by the IRS once, for no other reason than the people who gave birth to me cheated the government. I have no need to be pounded again.

 

The people at the BSA council are not educated to tell me about my personal tax liability, nor are they licensed in my state to give me tax advice. Most of them can't even quote their own two page, error filled document correctly. I don't give a crap what they say.

 

GeorgiaMom

Yea Basementdweller. I did read her post. I think her experience is an isolated incident. Just because we disagree with people doesn't stop us from being courteous.

[Basementdweller]

At the close of each calendar year, I send complete financials (bank ledgers, copies of statements, and committee financial reports) to the CO. I do it via Registered Mail and retain the receipt. In 21 years, I have yet to have a problem. And If I did, I'd simply produce a copy of the receipt, and the documents I sent. Ball Game Over. Troop/Pack finances should never be a reason for a treasurer to have to live in their car. If it is, you have TOO MUCH MONEY!

 

Raise what you need, and spend what you raise. Follow that mantra, and you'll never be wrong.

Every town or major city has the BSA Troop that is a corporation, they never stop fundraising. We have one that raises $250,000 and own a big bus, program is free for the youth. But the parents work consession stands at the Major league sports team and the major university stadium year round.

 

 

I ask why??? rumor has it that they have a million dollar bank account.

 

Raise what you need then spend it. Nothing more.