IOLS complaint

[Basementdweller]

I won't say I'm the best SM ever, but the scouts I've worked with that have had a few different SM's have said I'm their favorite from that group basement....

 

and I would say having boys that have stayed involved past earning Eagle and aging out as well is a sign that we do some good things and have a good group and a lot of fun.

 

Having sat through the training I know the boys will be bored out of their minds. I'm not sure if the training is the same from council to council, but when I went through it there was a mix of sitting through lectures, then being told how to do something, and having enough time for 1 member of your patrol to do it. My patrol was a group of experienced campers except for one so we let that scouter do all the attempts and we just made suggestions when they struggled.

 

IMO it would benefit those that are clueless and are wanting to learn to not have so many people that know what they are doing but are there to get their paper signed and little trained tab. Think about it. The way it currently is there are tons of people sitting around being told how to tie a knot - or it could be 10 people sitting down working one on one and really learning how to tie the knot.

 

The one person in our patrol that was clueless I wouldn't want my kid going camping with and trusting that they knew the skills well enough to teach him. And after I still wouldn't be comfortable with.

 

I just wish there was a better way. But there isn't. Eventually maybe they will come up with a better training method. And maybe the boys (guess their men now) will eventually give up a weekend to go sit through a training they think is boring even though they already give up a weekend a month to still go camp. And with their school, jobs, and after school activities just getting them to still come camp every now and then is pretty cool. If they don't want to sit through the training I can understand and will just keep them registered as MBC.

Just because they are 18 does not make them men. I know some 40 year old's that are still children.

 

I had a blast at IOLS.

 

 

Better training.

 

It begins with an adult being completely honest with themselves.

 

How many self proclaimed expert outdoors folks have you seen use an entire butane lighter to start a campfire or resort to liquid accelerant. We laugh at the BSA Ax yard but how many adults have ended up at the ER because of a lack of skill that claimed to have mastered?????

 

 

So unless we institute a training program complete with testing and certificates the program has no teeth.

[Basementdweller]

IOLS is not required for any Position unless You want to be Considered "Trained" and Wear the Patch

 

Only Required Training is Youth Protection..

 

It is just Highly recommended

pretty sure it is required to get a tour permit and be considered an SM or ASM.

 

http://www.bsanc.org/Leader%20Resources/Training/Requirements

 

Scoutmasters and assistant Scoutmasters are considered trained when they have completed Youth Protection, Fast Start, This Is Scouting, Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training, and Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills.

[skeptic]

Like any training or educational effort, learning about and doing it are only the beginning. If you do not occasionally practice the skill(s), then you will eventually either forget or have a bit of a struggle with it. Physical skills are even more practical hands on doing it. I have tied knots all my life and still struggle with them all that time as well; but if I did not continue to tie them, I would barely be able to start. Mental things are similar; do not do basic math for long periods and you likely will find yourself taking longer to accomplish what once you did at a glance.

 

Review is never bad. And helping those less skilled is not only the scout way, but also enhances your own abilities, as well as maybe earns you a friend.

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

So many things to say on this one ...

 

1. Meeting a requirement does not equate to mastery

2. What is once learned may be forgotten

3. Using a skill, and teaching it are two different things

4. Every group needs a leader

5. The patrol method is based on a group working together to accomplish common goals

 

I've seen this before with Eagles, and likely have been guilty a few times myself. This is "fighter pilot complex". My advice, as an Eagle Scout: this as an opportunity to grow into the new role being contemplated; embrace it.

[jpstodwftexas]

Leadership Required for a BSA Tour Permit

Leadership and Youth Protection Training:

Boy Scouts of America policy requires at least two adult leaders on all BSA activities. Coed Venturing crews must have both male and female leaders older than 21 for overnight activities. All registered adults must have completed BSA Youth Protection training. At least one registered adult who has completed BSA Youth Protection training must be present at all events and activities. Youth Protection training is valid for two years from the date completed.

 

Where does it say Trained SM or Trained ASM?

What is everyone saying about Not adding Requirements?

 

Required Training

Activity Standards:

Where swimming or boating is included in the program, Safe Swim Defense and/or Safety Afloat are to be followed.

If climbing/rappelling is included, then Climb On Safely must be followed.

At least one person must be current in CPR/AED from any recognized agency to meet Safety Aloat and Climb On Safely guidelines.

 

At least one adult on a pack overnighter must have completed Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO).

At least one adult must have completed Planning and Preparing for Hazardous Weather training for all tours and activities.

Recommended Training

Trek Safely and Basic First Aid are recommended for all tours, and Wilderness First Aid is recommended for all backcountry tours.

 

Interestingly anyone else Notice they Don't Say

At least one adult on a Troop/Crew overnighter must have completed Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skils (IOLS).

[moosetracker]

IOLS is not required for any Position unless You want to be Considered "Trained" and Wear the Patch

 

Only Required Training is Youth Protection..

 

It is just Highly recommended

National has not forced mandating position specific training. But, many councils have, National has even recommended that Council do this. Our council has mandated it by this year's rechartering (Dec 2014).. We may have LARGE classes this year, and people upset we aren't offering training every weekend from now on..

 

So depends on where Kathy lives if it is mandated or not.

[moosetracker]

Leadership Required for a BSA Tour Permit

Leadership and Youth Protection Training:

Boy Scouts of America policy requires at least two adult leaders on all BSA activities. Coed Venturing crews must have both male and female leaders older than 21 for overnight activities. All registered adults must have completed BSA Youth Protection training. At least one registered adult who has completed BSA Youth Protection training must be present at all events and activities. Youth Protection training is valid for two years from the date completed.

 

Where does it say Trained SM or Trained ASM?

What is everyone saying about Not adding Requirements?

 

Required Training

Activity Standards:

Where swimming or boating is included in the program, Safe Swim Defense and/or Safety Afloat are to be followed.

If climbing/rappelling is included, then Climb On Safely must be followed.

At least one person must be current in CPR/AED from any recognized agency to meet Safety Aloat and Climb On Safely guidelines.

 

At least one adult on a pack overnighter must have completed Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO).

At least one adult must have completed Planning and Preparing for Hazardous Weather training for all tours and activities.

Recommended Training

Trek Safely and Basic First Aid are recommended for all tours, and Wilderness First Aid is recommended for all backcountry tours.

 

Interestingly anyone else Notice they Don't Say

At least one adult on a Troop/Crew overnighter must have completed Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skils (IOLS).

Commented on your above statement. I will restate it here.

 

National has not forced mandating position specific training. But, many councils have, National has even recommended that Council do this. Our council has mandated it by this year's rechartering (Dec 2014).. We may have LARGE classes this year, and people upset we aren't offering training every weekend from now on..

 

So depends on where Kathy lives if it is mandated or not.

[jpstodwftexas]

Wondering Why there is Not Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Specific Training?

If there is No National what Standards do councils use?

Is it Once in a Lifetime Train or does it Expire?

If It expires is it free?

[Eagle92]

JP,

 

Don't know why IOLS and Specific training are required/recommended on tour permit. I am going to assume, and you know what can happen when you assume , that because the scouts should be teaching the scouts these skills, it is assumed that enough folks in the troop have the the skills needed to camp. But again that is an assumption.

 

As for training expiration, with the exception of specific trainings that do have expiration dates, i.e. YP, SSD, SA, etc currently, and I stress CURRENTLY, training does not expire. National was thinking about having folks redo basic training every time it changes. So the 20 year SM who has been there, done that, has the SM Key, got the three beads woggle and necker, ad nauseum, would be "untrained" until they redid their basic training with the most current version. There was a lot of flack on facebook when that was proposed. Currently it is up to the local training folks as to whether to accept the older training or not.

[jpstodwftexas]

Again Being Trained, IOLS is not recommended or required to pull a tour permit..Tour permits can be pulled by any Two Leaders meeting the Following Stated Rules

Boy Scouts of America policy requires at least two adult leaders on all BSA activities. Coed Venturing crews must have both male and female leaders older than 21 for overnight activities. All registered adults must have completed BSA Youth Protection training. At least one registered adult who has completed BSA Youth Protection training must be present at all events and activities. Youth Protection training is valid for two years from the date completed.

 

Going to a Museum, Radio Station, or even a Zoo require a Tour Permit in most cases...Two Committee Members can pull the permit

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

Wondering Why there is Not Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Specific Training?

If there is No National what Standards do councils use?

Is it Once in a Lifetime Train or does it Expire?

If It expires is it free?

Texas,

 

Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster are the same training, it's the same position, just a question of who is on point at any given time. This is position specific training, that has a nationally issues syllabus.

 

The training is once a lifetime, although I think the should be an expiration date, as things do change. I took mine in 1986, although it had a different name, and it was substantially different from the current training.

 

Fees are a local matter, but typically they cover only the cost of the course.

 

National has encouraged councils to adopt a policy of "training first, position second", where you may not register in a position until you're trained for it. Our council has adopted this policy; which I fully support. Can you imagine starting a job without being trained?

[IM_Kathy]

From the BSA website back in 2011:

 

To help keep these young men in Scouting, a new registration code has been introduced – 92U, Unit College Scouter Reserve. Of course Youth Protection Training is required, but that is the only required course for the position. All of the registration application criteria and fees apply.

only problem with this is these young men aren't in college yet. They turned 18 the fall of their senior year of high school

[swmwshrk]

I did IOLS last year My patrol leader was an 18 year old Eagle. He had no idea what a Patrol Leaders job was or how to do it. I ended up taking over for him. One of the competitions was knot tying relay race s. This Eagle scout said he would tie the square knot since it was the only Knot he knew. He tied it wrong costing us the race.

 

If a boy scout has a part time job as a chef he still has to earn the cooking merit badge. How about a boy scout who is elected to his town council or works as a lifeguard, or at a car dealership. They still have to EARN CITIZENSHIP IN THE COMMUNITY, LIFESAVING, AND SALESMANSHIP they aren't just given to these boys. As adult leaders why do we think things should be given to us for past accomplishments.

 

A scout is obedient. If he needs IOLS for the position take IOLS.

[Sentinel947]

I did IOLS last year My patrol leader was an 18 year old Eagle. He had no idea what a Patrol Leaders job was or how to do it. I ended up taking over for him. One of the competitions was knot tying relay race s. This Eagle scout said he would tie the square knot since it was the only Knot he knew. He tied it wrong costing us the race.

 

If a boy scout has a part time job as a chef he still has to earn the cooking merit badge. How about a boy scout who is elected to his town council or works as a lifeguard, or at a car dealership. They still have to EARN CITIZENSHIP IN THE COMMUNITY, LIFESAVING, AND SALESMANSHIP they aren't just given to these boys. As adult leaders why do we think things should be given to us for past accomplishments.

 

A scout is obedient. If he needs IOLS for the position take IOLS.

When I was an 18 year old Eagle, I took IOLs. It was a joke because my troop had me well prepared in my Scouting skills. But I didn't complain because it's a requirement and needed to be done.

 

Eagles should have those skills and it should be easy for them to pass IOLs. They don't need an exemption.

[Eagle92]

Again I have mixed emotions.

 

I took the old SM Fundamentals as an 19 y.o. Eagle. Having been in a 'hiking and camping troop" that was youth run, going through Brownsea 22, and also a 64 mile canoe trip in the Canadian Wilderness, the outdoor portion of the course was not a challenge. I did it becasue it was needed. But in all honesty it was a waste of time.

 

But, as we all have seen and heard, there are Eagles out there who I wouldn't trust in the outdoors. So I like the idea of the skill testing that national allows, i.e. show all of the the skills and get credit for the course. But I also like how if you cannot do the skills, you gotta take the course.

 

A few comments that are ancillaries to this conversation.

 

1) Does anyone else who have taught IOLS think the syllabus promotes the 'One and Done" mentality?

 

2) Does anyone else see a correlation between Eagles who can not do basic outdoor skills and those who either earned their Eagle in from 1972 - 1979 time frame ( when Improved Scouting Program was around and camping was not required) or are in troops whose leaders were involved in Scouting only during this timeframe until now? I just realized that a troop that is having major challenges in their ouotdoor program right now also has an SM who got his Eagle under the Improved Scouting Program.