berliner Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction. 1984 was written as a warning, but someone mistook it for an instruction manual. So we know that US Spies from some Alphabet Agency have always been spying. No surprise there. Over the years, they have gotten a) pretty good and b) pretty paranoid. Now that average US or German or French citizsens have all their data collected was to be expected. Brazilian, Mexican President, Italian and French Goverment, German Chancellor Merkel, offices of the United Nationas and European Union are all bugged, tapped in some way or another by some US Intelligence Service. Still no surprise. Listening and watching is what spies do. To protect the people. From terrorists. Criminals. All good. I say if you can pin any evidence to someone to be linked to crimes etc - go for it. With a whole CF of Fed's. Spying on diplomats, politicans, neighbours. Seems fair. Frenemies. Eavesdropping on Cardinals - well ... you better start having some good reasons. But as was just revealed by the Italian Newspapers, the National Security Agency was eavesdropping on Cardinal Jorge Marion Bergoglio, amongst others. You know who ol' Jorge is? He's the Pope. Head of the Catholic Church. Now someone please give me a plausible reason or explanation why No Such Agency/Christians in Action (LOL) have to listen in on phone calls of clergy. I am pretty sure the only place safer from Jihadists outside of Langley or Fort Meade is the Vatican itself ... Eavesdropping on the Vatican Bank I would understand: RICO. But the Pope? WTF? Excuse my french: WTH ?! A whole lot of trade negotiations and all are about to go down the drain due to the NSA. US companies/providers are losing overseas businesss as europeans scramble to replace google/apple/aol etc with non-american products. And reactions to the "Propaganda" Video ... really? Obama said he would make things more transparent right? He kept his word: everybody is more transparent now ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 It was supposed to remain the 'elephant in the room'. Everyone knew all this stuff was going on but we just weren't supposed to discuss it openly in polite society. The Pope? Who cares? Might as well get him along with everyone else. What Snowden did was make everyone have to admit what we all knew was going on anyway. Anyone who has a cell phone or access to email or the internet and who presumes to maintain some modicum of privacy is engaging in a pleasant illusion. Like 'security'. It is and always has been, an illusion. A nice one. One of Snowden's biggest transgressions is that he destroyed illusions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentinel947 Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 The Vatican doesn't seem too concerned on it's part, but I'm sure Obama will claim he didn't know about it, just like he doesn't know about ANYTHING going on in his administration. Sentinel947 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berliner Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 Funny thing is: the public debate on Snowden has been going on for months and as you said most people with half a brain have known/expected this for years; turns out a lot what the conspiracy theorists and nutters where going on about is actually true. In a camping store I just saw a special wallet lined with aluminum to keep RFID passports safe from unwanted scanning. In Europe the politicans where trying to appease the people the last coouple of months, trying to play it down and calm everybody down. Until it hit Hollande and Merkel. Then they got upset and their knickers in a twist. But I think as heads of States they are Fair Game. The French are known to spy in the US, the German BND is a tad bit naive. And more incompetent than they would want the public to know. I just think with the Pope a new, totally different line is crossed. The Vatican had already suspected it was going on. I just dont get it. How could the Pope make it onto a terror suspect list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentinel947 Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Funny thing is: the public debate on Snowden has been going on for months and as you said most people with half a brain have known/expected this for years; turns out a lot what the conspiracy theorists and nutters where going on about is actually true. In a camping store I just saw a special wallet lined with aluminum to keep RFID passports safe from unwanted scanning. In Europe the politicans where trying to appease the people the last coouple of months, trying to play it down and calm everybody down. Until it hit Hollande and Merkel. Then they got upset and their knickers in a twist. But I think as heads of States they are Fair Game. The French are known to spy in the US, the German BND is a tad bit naive. And more incompetent than they would want the public to know. I just think with the Pope a new, totally different line is crossed. The Vatican had already suspected it was going on. I just dont get it. How could the Pope make it onto a terror suspect list? Seems pretty easy to justify. The conclave to elect the pope is the selection of one of the most influential (Not powerful) men on Earth. He's the spiritual leader of over an estimate 1 billion people. (Disclaimer) I'm a Catholic American. I doubt the NSA thinks Pope Francis or the Cardinals are terrorists supporters, it's more of spying for the sake of useful information. I think it's wrong, but I've got a very large bias considering well... I'm Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckfoot Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 If you really think that the US is alone in this, you are very naive. Everyone spies on everyone else. Everyone. Doesn't matter if they are allies or not. The Vatican is not excepted, their files would make J. Edgar blush. I'm sure all these world leaders would be far less indignant if they had their own Snowden throw out their secrets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 For security reasons, I can see spying on foreign concerns or possible threats. But once they start spying on their own people, they move the debate into the Godwin Law arena. No government should be so paranoid of it's own citizens it feels it needs to spy on them. The only reason for such action would be if they were not serving the people they are supposed to be taking care of and instead taken on a more tyrannical posture of running the government. It's happened before, it'll happen again. Either the government serves the people, or they'll replace it with one that will. Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tampa Turtle Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Everybody spies and anyone looks bad when they get caught. The Vatican has, historically, been a major diplomatic player at times as a conduit for information so I can see that.This a good read: http://www.economist.com/node/9516461 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 The truth about the public complaints and faux anger from most other leaders is simply a fascade to mollify their own populace who, like our own, wears blinders and are naive to the extreme to the realities of how the world works when international governments are involved. As far as spying on your own people, the same old adage applies; "You have nothing to fear, but fear itself", unless of course you are doing things you would prefer others not know about, or that threaten the greater security of the country. For the most part, few of us really have much to be concerned about with the mundane lives we lead, other than some group other than the government getting access to something that allows them to intrude directly on us. Those individuals more likely will get that info from sources other than the government, as there are data miners far more culpable than NSA or such. I will now go back to my boring existence and try to worry about things that really make a difference or I may actually be able to control directly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Freedom means free from some Big Brother nanny state that feels it is their job to be your parent throughout your life because you are too stupid or incapable to doing it yourself. Sorry, MYOB should be the mantra of every good government when it comes to preserving the freedom of it's citizens. There's no justification that says a government can take away a citizens free rights without due process and spying is not due process in anyone's book. Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walk in the woods Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 ...As far as spying on your own people' date=' the same old adage applies; "You have nothing to fear, but fear itself", unless of course you are doing things you would prefer others not know about, or that threaten the greater security of the country[/quote'] This is exactly the attitude that tyrants and despots count on in order to control the populace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Interesing comments. I curious, how you all feel about the IRS being used to target certian groups and individuals that don't agree with the politics of power? You know what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Interesing comments. I curious, how you all feel about the IRS being used to target certian groups and individuals that don't agree with the politics of power? You know what I mean.It is pretty clear the IRS was not being used by anyone. That said I have no problem with the IRS going after tax cheats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nike Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Interesing comments. I curious, how you all feel about the IRS being used to target certian groups and individuals that don't agree with the politics of power? You know what I mean.The IRS deciding on its own to harass people is scary enough, let alone of there was some sort of intelligence directing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 ...As far as spying on your own people' date=' the same old adage applies; "You have nothing to fear, but fear itself", unless of course you are doing things you would prefer others not know about, or that threaten the greater security of the country[/quote'] This is exactly the attitude that tyrants and despots count on in order to control the populace. Sorry, I am very aware of history and some of the nightmares from its past; and frankly, I just do not see anywhere near the parallels that would cause such paranoia in this country. While I would like to throw most of the government rep's out, and recognize occasional issues we should worry about, I just do not understand how some can be so scared of things that really are not scarey. But, I also see the benefits outweighing the negative with traffic cams at some bad intersections, and I would welcome cameras in school classrooms, having been in them for years. Of course I enjoy the program "Person of Interest" too. Not going to look over my should if no real reason to; just worry about my own actions and how they relate to those around me. JMO of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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