Teaching Knots

[ManyIrons]

Greetings all, permission to join your virtual campfire.

 

I'm looking for advice, lessons learned, best practices, etc., for teaching knots to adult leaders as part of a council-wide program. I've volunteered to promote the "Master Knotter" program at our annual University of Scouting this upcoming January and I really want to set this up for success.

 

For those of you unfamiliar with the program, it was created several years ago by a Scouter in the Gamehaven Council (Minnesota) as a fun way to generate interest in knotting among the adult leaders. Without going into too much detail, the program is divided into 5 levels, each containing 10 knots. Thus to complete the program (and become a Master Knotter) each participant must learn 50 knots. Some versions of the program award certificates upon completion of each level, others use beads on leather belt fobs.

 

I've scoured the net and found some great ideas (e.g. teaching aids, games, incentives, etc.), but what I'm looking for now is feedback from folks who done this, or anything like it, so I can either build on their successes or at least avoid similar pitfalls.

 

I've corresponded with the author of the program (who unfortunately had very little success with it in his own council), as well as a Scouter in North Carolina who has been able to generate interest among Cub Scout leaders, but not the Boy Scout leaders. Both of these gentlemen have been very helpful, but since I have another 2 months before UoS, I thought it might be a good idea to cast a wider net.

 

Any suggestions?

 

ManyIrons

[red feather]

Welcome to the campfire ManyIrons.

 

I try to teach knots in 'the troop that I am honored to be associated with' and it is a hard road to follow. I get some boys interested for a while and once in a while (over the last 10 yrs) have had a couple really take an interest and push my abilities.

 

Rarely have I had leaders show much interest in knotting. Not sure why but most look on and say neat and then move on. Have had some success in teaching knots specific to the leaders job and job uses, but not much.

 

I would be interested in doing the Master Knotter program myself, but there are some that swear that I am just a little 'tetched' when it comes to tying knots.

 

Not much help but good luck and keep us posted on your success.

 

yis

[Eamonn]

While I have never tried this program.

I kind of like to think that Knots is one of my strong points.

Still 50 knots in a day ??

I think that you must first think about the people that you hope to train.

As I say I think that I'm a little above average.

I really don't want to "Re-learn" the basic knots.

(I am trying to think of how many knots I do know, but am having a hard time counting)

Then again I have been playing with rope for a very long time.

I have found that knoting is something that you can pick up in a heart beat or really have a hard time with.

To try and get a person who is having a hard time to learn anymore then six or seven is pushing it.

Still I wish you all the very best and welcome to the forums.

Eamonn

[ManyIrons]

Eamonn: Sorry if I gave the impression that it was 50 knots in a day -- definitely not the plan! I'd be the one folks were calling "tetched" if I even contemplated such an undertaking. Technically the program wouldn't allow 50 knots in a day. The copy I have stipulates a minimum of 30 days between each level, other than that the participant can take as much time as they want.

 

Red Feather: I can send you a copy of the program, but to be honest there are problems with it. First and foremost, there is no "grand design" to the program. The knots were selected somewhat at random and the naming of the levels was basically arbitrary. I'm not throwing darts at the original author -- I really like the concept and the guy was gracious enough to answer my questions and provide suggestions. His only goal was to generate interest and have fun. He even gave his blessing for me (and others) to tinker with it.

 

Gauging the audience is definitely one of my objectives, and to that end I plan on reworking the program to give it a grand design. I don't want to delve into those specifics right now -- as I said in my original post, I'm looking for feedback on methods that have worked or not worked. I'll be more than happy to share the finished product.

 

Thanks for the comments and well wishes.

 

ManyIrons

[blade1158]

ManyIrons,

like Eammon, I, too, would consider myself a pretty decent man with a knot. I taught countless scouts when I was a scout and am doing it again now as a scouter.

 

Having some bit of information about a knot other than just how to tie it and how it is used has always been helpful for me. It helps make each knot a bit more memorable if you know a little bit about it, such as what it was used for in the old days, why it's called what it's called, etc. Having some kind of demonstration of the use of each knot also helps.

 

I, too, would be interested in obtaining a copy of this Master Knotter program. Any direction as to where I could get it would be appreciated.

 

On teaching, I get to show our whole troop how to tie the monkey's fist at our outing next weekend. May God give me patience.

[blade1158]

ManyIrons,

like Eammon, I, too, would consider myself a pretty decent man with a knot. I taught countless scouts when I was a scout and am doing it again now as a scouter.

 

Having some bit of information about a knot other than just how to tie it and how it is used has always been helpful for me. It helps make each knot a bit more memorable if you know a little bit about it, such as what it was used for in the old days, why it's called what it's called, etc. Having some kind of demonstration of the use of each knot also helps.

 

I, too, would be interested in obtaining a copy of this Master Knotter program. Any direction as to where I could get it would be appreciated.

 

On teaching, I get to show our whole troop how to tie the monkey's fist at our outing next weekend. May God give me patience.

[Fat Old Guy]

I enjoy knots. Call me odd but I do.

 

What I look at is why a knot will do a job better than a similar knot. Why use a Carrick Bend when a Sheet bend will tie two lines together. They have different purposes.

 

Why not use a square knot to tie two climbing ropes together?

 

Each knot has a reason that it was developed years ago. For me that helps me learn and remember the knot.

 

 

[Fat Old Guy]

"To try and get a person who is having a hard time to learn anymore then six or seven is pushing it."

 

I would guess that's why they call the award "Master Knotter."

 

"I think that you must first think about the people that you hope to train. As I say I think that I'm a little above average.

I really don't want to "Re-learn" the basic knots. "

 

I would hope that you wouldn't have to re-learn the basics. This could be your opportunity to show off and demonstrate tying a bowline with your eyes closed.

[evmori]

Knots is cool!

 

We used "Knot of the Night" to start our Troop meetings. Each night we would teach a new knot. Then the Troop would practice. At the next meeting, the Scouts would have to tie the knot they learned the previous meeting & then learn a new one. This was progressive. And it seemed to work! We are due for a refresher.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[NeilLup]

Knots are fun and represent a physical skill that older youth can teach younger youth and then the younger youth can do and use.

 

I think the greatest knot teaching idea I heard was to take the teaching ropes and dye them with several different colors of food dye/ magic marker or whatever. That way, when doing a complicated knot, the individual strands are easily visible.

[JoePro]

ManyIrons - I am not familiar with the Master Knotter program, but would like to learn about it and possibly offer it in my council. Would you please send any information you have on the program to me.

 

The best knot tyer I know turns his back to the audience and ties the knot over his head for all to see. I've used this technique with my scouts and it seems to work well. And then there are the left-handed scouts. This has challenged me to demonstrate the knot tying technique using my left hand as the dominate hand. Not an easy thing for me to do.

 

Hope this helped.

 

[ManyIrons]

Thanks to all who have provided suggestions. I really like them and will work them into my version of the program.

 

For those of you who wanted more information about the program as it was given to me (Red Feather, Blade 1158, and JoePro), Im listing the details below. However, as I said in my previous post, there are problems with the program:

 

1. There was no effort to associate specific knots to specific levels (e.g. the Hitch Knotter level only contains 2 hitches while the Knowledgeable Knotter level has 5 hitches). Remember, the original author put this together as a way to interest Scouters in knotting and just to have fun at Roundtable.

 

2. The program doesnt provide diagrams or instructions on how to tie the knots. Each participant must locate them on his/her own. I think this may have a lot to do with the lack of interest.

 

3. Some of the knots arent knots (e.g. whipping, splicing, grommet). Granted these items are often included in books on knotting, but they arent knots and I think it just makes things confusing.

 

Here are the levels (in order) and their associated knots:

 

Square Knotter: Square knot, Figure 8 stopper knot, Overhand knot, Bowline, Sheet Bend, Taut-line Hitch, Clove Hitch, Two-Half Hitches, Half Hitch, whip the end of a rope.

 

Lashing Knotter: Timber Hitch, Square lashing, Tripod lashing, Diagonal lashing, Bowline on a bight, Round lashing, Shoelace knot, Clove Hitch to a vertical post, Sheepshank, Granny knot.

 

Bending Knotter: Turks Head, Eye splice, Millers knot, Truckers knot, Surgeons knot, Fishermans knot, Japanese/Norwegian Square lashing, Slippery Sheet Bend, Double Sheet Bend, Carrick Bend.

 

Hitch Knotter: Monkeys Fist, Back Splice, Killick Hitch, Lariat Loop (a.k.a. Honda), Chain knot, Double Carrick Bend, Thief knot, Double Overhand knot stopper knot, Marlinspike Hitch, Stevedore knot.

 

Knowledgeable Knotter: Short splice, Pipe Hitch, Hunters Bend, Larks Head (a.k.a. Cow Hitch), Waggoners Hitch, Prusik knot w/Double Fishermans Knot, Grommet, Canoe Hitch (a.k.a. Slippery Half-Hitch), Marling Hitch (also spelled as Marline), Binder-Twine Bend.

 

Program Rules:

 

- Self-Study program. Take as much time as you like at each level.

 

- A minimum of 30 days is required between levels.

 

- Certification requires the knots be tied in the presence of another Scouter without any diagrams or other help.

 

- Beads/Certificates are awarded at Roundtable.

 

Note: Many of the knots were taken from a book titled Knotcraft by Allan and Paulette Macfarlan (1967). I was able to find a copy in my local library.

 

Sorry for not including this stuff earlier, but as I said, I was more interested in discussing methods of generating interest and teaching rather than the programs specifics.

 

Im currently working on revising the program to correct the problems stated above and to include the ideas offered here. I hope to have a good working draft by mid to late December (I need to run it by my Roundtable and UoS folks). Of course I also have to finish my Wood Badge ticket by the end of Dec too.

 

Ill be happy to share my results when Im finished. In the meantime, please feel free to pass along anymore ideas you may have.

 

[Twocubdad]

I learned the basic knots as a Scout, but didn't get into knotting until I learned to sail. Sailors as a group tend to have an appreciation for interesting knots (you should see my flying bowline).

 

For me at least, knot tying is something you have to practice to remain proficient. I have a hard time remembering knots I don't use often. Every few years when I have to replace dock lines, I still have to look up how to put an eye splice in a line.

 

For a good reference, look in the boating section of the book store. I have several knot books, most relating to sailing. One of my favorites is A Rigger's Apprentice by Brian Toss.

[KA6BSA]

I have been doing knots for fun my whole life and in 40 years of Scouting. I have found that the ability to learn them, and have fun doing that is largely dependent on the person having an aptitude for 3-dimensional work. It is the same aptitude that many engineers, physical scientists, molecular chemists, and architects use in their professions. It is normal in a troop of Scouts to have a few kids who really enjoy knot tying and many who do not. The boys who think it is fun often don't work that hard at learning knots and "get it" pretty fast, the others may make quite an effort and never "get" a simple but more advanced knot like the sheet bend. Occupational testing organizations such as the Johnson O'Connor Research Foundation founded in 1922 and well respected can measure this aptitude. They call it "spatial visualization" and have found it to be primarily a male trait inherited from the father as an "all or none" ability. If you get a Scout who is great with knots ask him what his father does for a living and you will usually hear "engineer" or some other technical specialty requiring work in 3-dimensional problem solving. With this in mind don't be too hard on the kids who just never "get it" as they are no doubt great in some other Scouting Skills subject. My own father was a physician, but a specialist in Radiology and he spent all his time interpreting 2-dimensional x-ray films as 3-dimensional diseases, and he was a knot fiddler his whole life too. Both of my sons have the skill... my Eagle Scout older son has been the Pioneering Instructor in his troop for 3 years, and my Webelos son can already tie a bowline 8 different ways (really!). Before he joined Cubs he satisfied his aptitude by compulsively making complicated paper airplanes every day. My point is that advanced knot tying is not fun for everybody, but some do really enjoy it, and it should not be approached as other general-purpose Scout Skills like cooking or first-aid. Knowing this can also help you appreciate the effort required by some Scouts to learn the basic knots and lashings required to reach First Class Scout.

 

[blade1158]

Thanks for posting the information on the Master Knotter program. Your assessment of the weaknesses of the program as laid out are on target.

 

The idea behind the program is good, just poorly executed. I don't mind the inclusion of lashings, just rename the program. You are quite correct in pointing out that the grouping of the knots is quite haphazard and disjointed. Here are my suggestions for restructuring. It expands from just knots and includes other types of rope work.

 

Level one-Whipping and end knots-American whipping, English whipping, sail maker's whipping, west country whipping, overhand knot, figure eight knot, Stevedore's knot, wall knot, single Matthew Walker knot, double Matthew Walker knot.

 

Level Two-Knots for joining-Square knot, surgeon's knot, sheet bend, double sheet bend, slippery sheet bend, fisherman's knot, Hunter's bend, carrick bend, double carrick bend, thieve's knot.

 

Level three-Hitches-half hitch, two half hitches, slippery half hitch, clove hitch, timber hitch, pipe hitch, taut line hitch, rolling hitch, anchor bend, hitching tie, cat's paw.

 

Level four-Loops and other knots-Bowline, French bowline, bowline on a bight, man harness knot, alpine butterfly, strangle knot, sheep shank, lark's head, miller's knot.

 

Level five-Lashing and splicing-Square lashing, diagonal lashing, round lashing, shear lashing, tripod lashing, back splice, short splice, eye splice, monkey's fist, turk's head.

 

This structure organizes the knots and rope work according to function and ends with what could be considered the most difficult items, the lashings and splices. It makes for a nice progression from level one to level five. Of course some kind of hand outs showing how each knot, lashing or splice is done would be needed. These hand outs would be a nice future resource for the scout or scouter.

 

I have no suggestions for renaming the program or the levels, sorry. The recognition structure seems fine. I think this could be used for both adults and boys.