How much?

[Stosh]

I hate when some boys screw up or are lazy and it impacts the whole Troop with a bad experience. On the other hand when the boys do it and things go smoothly it is easy to forget "hey they got it taken care of!".

Couch Potato Scouts will always throw a wrench into the smooth operations of a boy-led troop. They are there to take and never give. I show up, give me the program, the fun, the stuff in the brochure and don't expect me to lift a finger to help out, that's not why I'm in the program. Couple that with parents that support that and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

The adventure is the means by which leadership character is built, but some aren't looking for that part. I'm here for the fun and washing dishes doesn't sound like fun. When the fun starts up again, call me, I'll be in my tent texting my friends, that's fun.

 

Stosh

[Bando]

Basement, us too at camp last year. We got up 45 minutes before flag, and missed it. Then the SPL did 60 and missed it. We had to go to 90 before we (barely) made it. And we were really close to the parade ground. Teens!

LOL Stosh, indeed. That early morning mean streak was my trademark as troop bugler.

[Horizon]

Don't know what you mean by directives.

 

The boys want to play laser-tag/paintball, I said I would love to - but BSA won't allow it. (I DID, however, point them towards Kudu's list of wide area games...)

The boys want to go shooting, I remind them that we need a range master. We have one good range master in the troop, they need to call him and see when he is available.

The boys say that they want to beach camp, the troop adults take care of the reservations for next year (nly a couple places you can beach camp where we are, and they fill fast).

The boys voted on where to go for summer camp, the troop adults dealt with the reservations.

The boys want to go backpacking, the troop adults deal with the wilderness permits.

 

So the boys drive the activities, the adults facilitate them. I don't expect boys to do tour permits, medical forms, or any of the other administrivia required in our organization.

 

Meetings are opened by the boys, with times at the beginning and end for adult announcements (usually around forms and payments). Meetings are run by the boys, with the SM walking around the different stations. That gives us a fair amount of chaos, I admit.

 

Sometimes do we step in too much - yup. Usually when there is a breakdown in youth leadership for a variety of reasons, and I want to keep the boat from sinking / someone getting hurt /etc. I always question myself when stepping in, sometimes an adult is too fast, sometime we are too slow.

Maybe this does need its own thread. Do you have your Scribe run the rechartering? Does he get to review the medications every Scout and adult is taking? Why not just have the boys run the BORs then? Shucks, if 16 - they can take themselves to the campout, and carry their friends.

 

Like I said - I want the boys to run the campout. That is where the leadership role is. Managing a spreadsheet and binder of medical forms - they can learn that later when they go to Woodbadge or some other BSA MBA program.

[Horizon]

I don't know about percentages but I've recently realized that the things that prevent boys from making decisions are lack of maturity, lack of trust between scouts and adults, and fuzzy boundaries between the adult and scout responsibilities. Immature boys just don't make decisions and a lack of trust kills confidence. Fuzzy responsibilities encourages boys to defer to adults and for adults to step in. Making a short, clear list of responsibilities (as well as consequences for not meeting their responsibilities) makes it easier to pull back the adults and for the boys to know it's their problem. I've recently had a lot of luck with this idea. Everyone is happier. Well, the scouts and I are happier, some of the parents are not at all happy with the chaos or some of the ideas these guys come up with.

 

And by short I mean short. I don't care what they eat as long as it has some protein and a fruit or vegetable. I don't care where they are until flags Saturday morning as long as they're quiet from 10pm to when everyone wakes and that they look out for each other's well being, I don't care when they wake up or if the eat breakfast.

 

 

 

This was all about how a couple of dirty socks weren't put away properly, and we weren't building our daily allotment of useful camp gadgets.

[frankpalazzi]

Don't know what you mean by directives.

 

The boys want to play laser-tag/paintball, I said I would love to - but BSA won't allow it. (I DID, however, point them towards Kudu's list of wide area games...)

The boys want to go shooting, I remind them that we need a range master. We have one good range master in the troop, they need to call him and see when he is available.

The boys say that they want to beach camp, the troop adults take care of the reservations for next year (nly a couple places you can beach camp where we are, and they fill fast).

The boys voted on where to go for summer camp, the troop adults dealt with the reservations.

The boys want to go backpacking, the troop adults deal with the wilderness permits.

 

So the boys drive the activities, the adults facilitate them. I don't expect boys to do tour permits, medical forms, or any of the other administrivia required in our organization.

 

Meetings are opened by the boys, with times at the beginning and end for adult announcements (usually around forms and payments). Meetings are run by the boys, with the SM walking around the different stations. That gives us a fair amount of chaos, I admit.

 

Sometimes do we step in too much - yup. Usually when there is a breakdown in youth leadership for a variety of reasons, and I want to keep the boat from sinking / someone getting hurt /etc. I always question myself when stepping in, sometimes an adult is too fast, sometime we are too slow.

Reservations, Medical forms, Rechartering are all responsibilities of the Troop Committee. Boy leaders, specifically the Scribe and SPL should be invited to assist/observe/participate in the process. Most will find it "boring". Older scouts (16-17) should be encouraged to learn the "adult" stuff--some will jump at the chance! These may be your Troop's future adults! !

[MattR]

Stosh and Barry, you're both making some great points. Being able to gauge, even if it's subjective, how boy-led a troop is is a great idea. Barry is right that it has to account for the age and maturity of the scouts. Everyone seems to think boy led is a binary value and everyone says yep, we're boy led. Rather, wouldn't it be great to have some categories and how to evaluate them? It would be a great tool for improving a troop, both scouts and adults.

 

Rather than numbers why not just grades? A - we're out of a job, hooray! B - We're proud of our boys. C - Needs a lot of coaching. D - Deer in the headlights. F - Maybe it's time for a change.

 

I don't know what good categories would be. Who knows, maybe the SM and PLC should include this in their planning campout. The scouts decide the responsibilities of the scouts and the adults. You know, that's just a simple, good idea. Start with Barry's discussion of ethics and then ask the incoming SPL what he wants to be responsible for, and implicitly what the adults won't do. For a new 12 yo SPL that discussion will look a lot different than for a 17 yo SPL. The older scout might even ask for more than the SM expects. The SM can write down all the things that are done by scouts and adults and the SPL chooses what he thinks he can handle and come up with a way to ensure he's doing a good job. Essentially, let the scouts define the expectations and consequences.

 

A wise SM would give the boy not quite enough rope to hang himself. I think it would be great to have a discussion with the SPL along the lines of, if you say you're going to do this and you don't, there may be some scouts that quit the troop or at least vote you out, are you prepared for this? What's more boy-led and adaptable then asking the SPL what he will be responsible for, and then holding him, and the adults, to it?

 

I really like this because it solves a big problem I have. I don't like being the bad guy/enforcer of standards but nobody else will do it. By giving the scout complete freedom in picking his responsibilities I'm no longer the bad guy. Granted, a few things are not on the table, like med forms and signing Eagle apps, but a lot of others could be. It might be tough figuring out what all the responsibilities are.

[Eagledad]

Stosh and Barry, you're both making some great points. Being able to gauge, even if it's subjective, how boy-led a troop is is a great idea. Barry is right that it has to account for the age and maturity of the scouts. Everyone seems to think boy led is a binary value and everyone says yep, we're boy led. Rather, wouldn't it be great to have some categories and how to evaluate them? It would be a great tool for improving a troop, both scouts and adults.

 

Rather than numbers why not just grades? A - we're out of a job, hooray! B - We're proud of our boys. C - Needs a lot of coaching. D - Deer in the headlights. F - Maybe it's time for a change.

 

I don't know what good categories would be. Who knows, maybe the SM and PLC should include this in their planning campout. The scouts decide the responsibilities of the scouts and the adults. You know, that's just a simple, good idea. Start with Barry's discussion of ethics and then ask the incoming SPL what he wants to be responsible for, and implicitly what the adults won't do. For a new 12 yo SPL that discussion will look a lot different than for a 17 yo SPL. The older scout might even ask for more than the SM expects. The SM can write down all the things that are done by scouts and adults and the SPL chooses what he thinks he can handle and come up with a way to ensure he's doing a good job. Essentially, let the scouts define the expectations and consequences.

 

A wise SM would give the boy not quite enough rope to hang himself. I think it would be great to have a discussion with the SPL along the lines of, if you say you're going to do this and you don't, there may be some scouts that quit the troop or at least vote you out, are you prepared for this? What's more boy-led and adaptable then asking the SPL what he will be responsible for, and then holding him, and the adults, to it?

 

I really like this because it solves a big problem I have. I don't like being the bad guy/enforcer of standards but nobody else will do it. By giving the scout complete freedom in picking his responsibilities I'm no longer the bad guy. Granted, a few things are not on the table, like med forms and signing Eagle apps, but a lot of others could be. It might be tough figuring out what all the responsibilities are.

Boy run is very dependent on the maturity growth of the adults. I have to say Matt you have done well there. Posters on this forum respond in two different ways, either from a postion of humilty, or a postion of pride. Yours is a position of humilty and it is very refreshing. I think you are seeing what I mean by guiding the scouts in a general direction instead of following a set course. While it is important for the adults to have a good grasp of the goals, how the scouts reach those goals isn't that important. That is hard for adults to grasp, but even harder to practice when they do grasp it. I really like your idea of the scouts creating their job responsibilties. But that isn't easy for them either. As you said before, there is the gray area of trust between the scouts and adults. So it really has to be a team effort. Here is how I did it, by the way a scouter on a forum gave me this suggestion. I teach all my new PLCs the Aims and methods of scouting. I explain that the 3 Aims are the adults responsibilities, and the 8 Methods are the scouts' responsibilities. The PLCs responsibilities also are to insure that Character, Fitness and Citizenship are practiced in all the campouts and major activities. That way the PLC understands that they basically have free rain over the program provided their program includes the 8 Methods and includes activities that practice the 3 Aims. See what I mean by a general direction without setting an exact course. Now, you can't do this all at once, scouts need to mature and build a trust in the adults. And the adults need to mature faster than the scouts so they don't get in the way. Boy run isn't easy, but it is rewarding. As it comes together, you will find yourself loving this scouting stuff. Barry

[Sentinel947]

Stosh and Barry, you're both making some great points. Being able to gauge, even if it's subjective, how boy-led a troop is is a great idea. Barry is right that it has to account for the age and maturity of the scouts. Everyone seems to think boy led is a binary value and everyone says yep, we're boy led. Rather, wouldn't it be great to have some categories and how to evaluate them? It would be a great tool for improving a troop, both scouts and adults.

 

Rather than numbers why not just grades? A - we're out of a job, hooray! B - We're proud of our boys. C - Needs a lot of coaching. D - Deer in the headlights. F - Maybe it's time for a change.

 

I don't know what good categories would be. Who knows, maybe the SM and PLC should include this in their planning campout. The scouts decide the responsibilities of the scouts and the adults. You know, that's just a simple, good idea. Start with Barry's discussion of ethics and then ask the incoming SPL what he wants to be responsible for, and implicitly what the adults won't do. For a new 12 yo SPL that discussion will look a lot different than for a 17 yo SPL. The older scout might even ask for more than the SM expects. The SM can write down all the things that are done by scouts and adults and the SPL chooses what he thinks he can handle and come up with a way to ensure he's doing a good job. Essentially, let the scouts define the expectations and consequences.

 

A wise SM would give the boy not quite enough rope to hang himself. I think it would be great to have a discussion with the SPL along the lines of, if you say you're going to do this and you don't, there may be some scouts that quit the troop or at least vote you out, are you prepared for this? What's more boy-led and adaptable then asking the SPL what he will be responsible for, and then holding him, and the adults, to it?

 

I really like this because it solves a big problem I have. I don't like being the bad guy/enforcer of standards but nobody else will do it. By giving the scout complete freedom in picking his responsibilities I'm no longer the bad guy. Granted, a few things are not on the table, like med forms and signing Eagle apps, but a lot of others could be. It might be tough figuring out what all the responsibilities are.

Clarke Green over at Scoutmastercg.com posted this article which has an interesting metric of Youth led/ vs Adult led.

 

http://www.scoutmastercg.com/ladder-of-youth-leadership-infographic/

 

 

 

I'll write to him and see if he's got anything else over there.

 

 

 

Also, Matt, thank you for driving conversations here in a positive manner.

 

 

 

Yours in Scouting,

 

Sentinel947

[Horizon]

Sentinel - I LOVE that infographic! I plan on handing it out at the next PLC. Many thanks for the link.

[Sentinel947]

Sentinel - I LOVE that infographic! I plan on handing it out at the next PLC. Many thanks for the link.

I wrote to Mr. Green and his response can be found here.

 

 

 

http://www.scoutmastercg.com/what-do-scouts-decide/.

 

 

 

All credit for the Infographic goes to him.

 

Yours in Scouting,

 

Sentinel947

[Basementdweller]

On that infographic....our unit floats between 1 and 4. right now most of our time is spent 2 and 3.....I would like to think mostly in 2 but that is the glass half full guy in me.

[Eagledad]

Sentinel - I LOVE that infographic! I plan on handing it out at the next PLC. Many thanks for the link.

Thanks Sentine1947, that is a good read. I expecially appreciate what he said about older scouts: "older scouts aren't as interested in doing new, different, big things as they are in the patrol system. They are endlessly inspired and energized when they have a real resonsibility with the accomplishment and freedom that comes from governing themselves." This is my observation as well and is completely opposite of what most scouters believe. As I said before, age 14 is where I think real growth starts because the scouts get to serve the other scouts and there is a genuine satisfaction that comes from making other peoples lives better. Adults should strive to build a program that gives the older scout that opportunity. A successful Troop program is the result of a successful older scout program. Thanks again Sentine. Barry

[Eagledad]

Stosh and Barry, you're both making some great points. Being able to gauge, even if it's subjective, how boy-led a troop is is a great idea. Barry is right that it has to account for the age and maturity of the scouts. Everyone seems to think boy led is a binary value and everyone says yep, we're boy led. Rather, wouldn't it be great to have some categories and how to evaluate them? It would be a great tool for improving a troop, both scouts and adults.

 

Rather than numbers why not just grades? A - we're out of a job, hooray! B - We're proud of our boys. C - Needs a lot of coaching. D - Deer in the headlights. F - Maybe it's time for a change.

 

I don't know what good categories would be. Who knows, maybe the SM and PLC should include this in their planning campout. The scouts decide the responsibilities of the scouts and the adults. You know, that's just a simple, good idea. Start with Barry's discussion of ethics and then ask the incoming SPL what he wants to be responsible for, and implicitly what the adults won't do. For a new 12 yo SPL that discussion will look a lot different than for a 17 yo SPL. The older scout might even ask for more than the SM expects. The SM can write down all the things that are done by scouts and adults and the SPL chooses what he thinks he can handle and come up with a way to ensure he's doing a good job. Essentially, let the scouts define the expectations and consequences.

 

A wise SM would give the boy not quite enough rope to hang himself. I think it would be great to have a discussion with the SPL along the lines of, if you say you're going to do this and you don't, there may be some scouts that quit the troop or at least vote you out, are you prepared for this? What's more boy-led and adaptable then asking the SPL what he will be responsible for, and then holding him, and the adults, to it?

 

I really like this because it solves a big problem I have. I don't like being the bad guy/enforcer of standards but nobody else will do it. By giving the scout complete freedom in picking his responsibilities I'm no longer the bad guy. Granted, a few things are not on the table, like med forms and signing Eagle apps, but a lot of others could be. It might be tough figuring out what all the responsibilities are.

Another bit of humble advice Mat, a very respected SM in our district once told me he had a bad cop good cop relationship with the ASMs for the scouts. Since he had to enforce the rules, he was the bad cop. But the ASMs were good cops because they just did what the SM directed. I was not yet a SM and thought I would be different andI would be everyones favorite SM. But it doesn't work that way because I found that the SM is the gate keeper of the program. If not, chaos would follow because nobody else wants the huge resposibility. But I also learned that SMs aren't bad cops, they are just very respected and held up to a higher standard. Kind of like folks holding preachers up to a higher standard. We just treat them a little different. Boys need role models to guide them and they instinctively look at the dominating leader for that responsibilitiy. All I can say is don't waste it. Stand up for what you think is right, and if that turns out to be wronge, stand up even taller and admit it. Humilty is mans' most respected quality because so few people have the courage to express it. You will never lead your scouts astray if you can follow those basic principles. Barry

[MattR]

I looked at the ladder thing and it brings up some questions. For the top level it says the adults won't step in unless it's a safety issue. When it comes to bad decisions that's fine as long the the result of the bad decision is timely. Forget food? Hunger. But what about decisions that aren't very timely. Let's say the scouts decide no new Webelos this year? Or maybe a decision just goes against the grain of scouting, such as not camping anymore, or not helping the younger scouts, or the flag ceremonies have become a joke. Or maybe just a PL being a butt. What's the feedback that addresses those issues? Some of those cases could be handled by scouts that think something is wrong. What's the mechanism to do that?. But there are also things that maybe only the SM sees. I agree with Barry that the SM is the keeper of the flame, so they ultimately do have say in decisions. So can any troop ever get to that top level? Or am I just reading this wrong?

 

[Oldscout448]

Basement, us too at camp last year. We got up 45 minutes before flag, and missed it. Then the SPL did 60 and missed it. We had to go to 90 before we (barely) made it. And we were really close to the parade ground. Teens!

The early morning mean streak was the second most important thing I needed as a bugler, the first being an ability to dodge heavy objects flying out of tents at "O dark hundred"