How much?

[Stosh]

Basement, us too at camp last year. We got up 45 minutes before flag, and missed it. Then the SPL did 60 and missed it. We had to go to 90 before we (barely) made it. And we were really close to the parade ground. Teens!

Hmmm, If the SPL can't get the boys to flags on time, who's responsibility is it to get him up earlier? Adults? Don't think so. I had this happen to me. I got up as did my ASM and we went off to flags. When we got there, the camp director asked where the boys were. We told him and he was not impressed. I did, however, let him know we are a boy-led program and invited him to address the issue to the SPL whose responsibility it was to be there. HE DID! I'm sure the SPL expected me to be standing at his tent flap yelling at him. However, when the camp director got done with letting him know how disappointed they were to have the troop miss flags (in no uncertain terms), it sunk in. They were never absent or even tardy again. Talk to the person in charge! Serving PB&J to those that miss meals must be a universal camp rule. Nothing like standing in a mess hall that smelled like bacon and eggs and having to settle for PB&J.

 

That particular SPL learned a valuable lesson that day. Unless it is an issue of real safety, there is no safety net provided by the adults.

 

As I remember, he was one of my better SPL's after that.

 

Stosh

[MattR]

I don't know about percentages but I've recently realized that the things that prevent boys from making decisions are lack of maturity, lack of trust between scouts and adults, and fuzzy boundaries between the adult and scout responsibilities. Immature boys just don't make decisions and a lack of trust kills confidence. Fuzzy responsibilities encourages boys to defer to adults and for adults to step in. Making a short, clear list of responsibilities (as well as consequences for not meeting their responsibilities) makes it easier to pull back the adults and for the boys to know it's their problem. I've recently had a lot of luck with this idea. Everyone is happier. Well, the scouts and I are happier, some of the parents are not at all happy with the chaos or some of the ideas these guys come up with.

 

And by short I mean short. I don't care what they eat as long as it has some protein and a fruit or vegetable. I don't care where they are until flags Saturday morning as long as they're quiet from 10pm to when everyone wakes and that they look out for each other's well being, I don't care when they wake up or if the eat breakfast.

 

 

 

BD, and others, the answer was buried in there under consequences. We had a problem with patrols not doing flags at meetings. So, I talked to the SPL about what a good consequence would be and we came up with the entire patrol, during the game, will instead practice their flag ceremony and figure out how to not miss their responsibility next time. Once they're done with that and they talk it over with the SPL, they can join the game. So, the other scouts are playing games and these guys are having a discussion about responsibility. Great motivation, and the scouts were in on deciding the consequence. They actually do a great job at that. If anything, I tend to tone down the punishment they come up with.

 

As for having the SPL responsible for waking up the troop, the SPL and I made a change. It's the PL's responsibility to wake his patrol up and get them to flags, with their patrol flag. This is all about making the PL the most important position in the troop. The PLs like it.

[Stosh]

I don't know about percentages but I've recently realized that the things that prevent boys from making decisions are lack of maturity, lack of trust between scouts and adults, and fuzzy boundaries between the adult and scout responsibilities. Immature boys just don't make decisions and a lack of trust kills confidence. Fuzzy responsibilities encourages boys to defer to adults and for adults to step in. Making a short, clear list of responsibilities (as well as consequences for not meeting their responsibilities) makes it easier to pull back the adults and for the boys to know it's their problem. I've recently had a lot of luck with this idea. Everyone is happier. Well, the scouts and I are happier, some of the parents are not at all happy with the chaos or some of the ideas these guys come up with.

 

And by short I mean short. I don't care what they eat as long as it has some protein and a fruit or vegetable. I don't care where they are until flags Saturday morning as long as they're quiet from 10pm to when everyone wakes and that they look out for each other's well being, I don't care when they wake up or if the eat breakfast.

 

 

 

MattR

 

PL's in charge of their patrols? Is that Kosher? Oh, yeah, it's the patrol-method. Well done!

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

My bad Stosh, but I wasn't implying that the Eight Methods related to your 95% directive comment. I just wonder how any adult can come up with hard numbers for any aspect of the program when it comes to scout growth. Each scout has different experiences and different maturities which requires different approaches for developiing growth. I question hard numbers to describe a boy run program because hard numbers tend to limit program and discourage an independent program where scouts are free to choose. I'm sure we are coming from two opposite ends of how to work with youth even though we have the same goals. All adults who work with youth do it under their own set of principes. One principle for me is to challenge each scout where he is at in his maturity and experience. The value of that principle is that we never stop challenging a scout to grow. Sounds simple but I find most troops stop growth after a scout gets to first class. As a result, they get boree and generally look for something different after age 14. I personally think 14 is where the best growth starts. And since I believe all boys are different in maturity and experience, I have to challenge each scout differently. A scout who has good leadership skills but is weak in camping skills will get more guidence in the Camping Method than Leadership. I'm not concerned about about a balance of hard numbers, I rather look at it as applying the right tool at the right time. When I see 95% directives, my first thought is can an 11 year old SPL do the task of 17 year old SPL. Well the answer is obvious, of course he can't. What does he lack? Where does he accell? This is why I think a boy run program is much more challenging for adults than adult run programs. Adult run measures all scout equally against the same expectations. They are generally a well uniformed troop because they expectation is the same for all scouts, no matter what they would really choose if given the choice. I have never seen a perfectly dressed boy run troop because not all boys agree to choose correctly. Adutls in boy run program deal with each scout's individual choice of right and wrong. And generally, adults in the boy run troops rarely dictate the right answer, but instead guide the scout in a general direction for him to experience a decision. Not many adults understand that when a scout voluntarily chooses to make right choices, he will stick with them. So I struggle with hard numbers you see because that just isn't my style of working with scouts. I believe grwoth comes when a scout chooses to grow and he won't voluntarily make that choice without a real life experience and some footing of ethics. I beleive that a boy run program is the best way to get a boy to that place. But how and where the adult fits in that model is very subjective because success depends on the maturity of the adults. A Boy Run Troop of 12 year old scouts looks completely different from a boy run troop of boys of all ages. The best adults are generally students of success for growth and voluntarily changing their leadership style to encrease that growth. The harder question for me is how do adults measure growth with a boy run program compared to adult run. Barry

 

[Stosh]

My bad Stosh, but I wasn't implying that the Eight Methods related to your 95% directive comment. I just wonder how any adult can come up with hard numbers for any aspect of the program when it comes to scout growth. Each scout has different experiences and different maturities which requires different approaches for developiing growth. I question hard numbers to describe a boy run program because hard numbers tend to limit program and discourage an independent program where scouts are free to choose. I'm sure we are coming from two opposite ends of how to work with youth even though we have the same goals. All adults who work with youth do it under their own set of principes. One principle for me is to challenge each scout where he is at in his maturity and experience. The value of that principle is that we never stop challenging a scout to grow. Sounds simple but I find most troops stop growth after a scout gets to first class. As a result, they get boree and generally look for something different after age 14. I personally think 14 is where the best growth starts. And since I believe all boys are different in maturity and experience, I have to challenge each scout differently. A scout who has good leadership skills but is weak in camping skills will get more guidence in the Camping Method than Leadership. I'm not concerned about about a balance of hard numbers, I rather look at it as applying the right tool at the right time. When I see 95% directives, my first thought is can an 11 year old SPL do the task of 17 year old SPL. Well the answer is obvious, of course he can't. What does he lack? Where does he accell? This is why I think a boy run program is much more challenging for adults than adult run programs. Adult run measures all scout equally against the same expectations. They are generally a well uniformed troop because they expectation is the same for all scouts, no matter what they would really choose if given the choice. I have never seen a perfectly dressed boy run troop because not all boys agree to choose correctly. Adutls in boy run program deal with each scout's individual choice of right and wrong. And generally, adults in the boy run troops rarely dictate the right answer, but instead guide the scout in a general direction for him to experience a decision. Not many adults understand that when a scout voluntarily chooses to make right choices, he will stick with them. So I struggle with hard numbers you see because that just isn't my style of working with scouts. I believe grwoth comes when a scout chooses to grow and he won't voluntarily make that choice without a real life experience and some footing of ethics. I beleive that a boy run program is the best way to get a boy to that place. But how and where the adult fits in that model is very subjective because success depends on the maturity of the adults. A Boy Run Troop of 12 year old scouts looks completely different from a boy run troop of boys of all ages. The best adults are generally students of success for growth and voluntarily changing their leadership style to encrease that growth. The harder question for me is how do adults measure growth with a boy run program compared to adult run. Barry

I really don't see us coming from two different approaches. My "hard number" issue is reflective in the method measurement described in my previous post. Sure, there will be a few (very few) things along the way that the adults may have to take the lead on, safety comes to mind right away. I have no problem with that.

 

But of the rest of the "leadership responsibilities" have been taken over, retained by the adults and have left little or no youth leadership opportunities to grow in. Here's where the numbers game comes in. Do the boys "run the meetings" at the directive of the adults? Or do they do everything on their own with the adults on the sidelines watching the boys grow?

 

If safety is stressed by the boys on everything the boys do in the troop, I'm thinking a troop could easily rank right up there in the 98-99% level of boy-led.

 

What bugs me the most are the comments, "We have a boy-led program, and the adults only do this, that, and everything else." Or the comment, "We have a boy-led, but..." Why can't people simply say, "We have a boy-led program, and all of us adults just sit bag and brag about our boys, because when they look good, we look good!"

 

As I also mentioned if a young boy is given the opportunity to line up a 1 hour service project, then maybe do his Grubmaster thingy for advancement, then do the patrol QM for a while and after figuring out how it goes in that patrol, he's a prime candidate for PL, top of the command chain as MattR points out. Why? Because he's popular? or because he is capable to teaching the boys in his patrol all those things he's learned along the way. Eventually he makes SPL, not because of popularity, but because he is well versed so as to coach the PL's in their duties.

 

It's going to take a bit of adult coaching to get that whole process rolling and one might have to start at square one with his newest scouts. But eventually the adults can make the concerted effort to keep backing off and letting the boys take the lead, both in doing as well as teaching the next guy down the line. To me the the most important coaching position in the troop is the Troop Guide. Too often he is someone who works only with the NSP. Heck no! He helps the NSP get their feet on the ground, but with the SPL he helps the PL's and should be senior enough to even offer the important "second opinion" for the SPL as he coaches even him.

 

Along with every POR should be the expectation that they train up the next guy otherwise they could get stuck in that POR forever! The troop QM should be training at least one person in every patrol what's going on with handling the gear requirements for that patrol for example. Eventually there should be 2-3 potential boys that have a pretty good idea of what a QM does and could take over so the Troop QM can move on to bigger and better things.

 

Hard numbers? Sure. We are working on developing a culture of boy-led in our troop and we think we're about halfway there, or 3/4th the way there or we are so close we can taste it, 99%.

 

As SM I have no expectations, no directives, no plans for success, all I have is the opportunity to create a learning environment where my boys have the opportunity to take on leadership at any and all occasions.

 

Like I've said before, I was let go as SM because I expected too much leadership out of my boys. If one has to go, that's not a bad way to exit.

 

Maybe a push the boy-led, patrol-method too much on the forum and maybe I pushed it too much in my troop, but if some is going to criticize or make fun of me, it might as well be for a good reason.

 

Seriously, Barry, we really are on the same page.

 

Stosh

[pcola]

When the scouts are responsible for their activities, the results will generally be less than ideal, but that is part of the learning process, and it is a success because they are learning and growing. Our role with the boys is to help and encourage and without being someone to whom they see as an evaluator. Two concepts I hold to as a scoutmaster are: 1) work with the SPL, PL and others in leadership meetings before the troop and patrol meetings are conducted. We meet and discuss techniques, ideas, and general thoughts so that they have some clarification before the meetings and activities actually occur. 2) We have developed a troop book with all the campsites, trails, and activities so that they have a good starting place of ideas when planning their campouts and activity days. Given the information, encouragement, and proper planning, the boy-led troop will be success even when part of that success is encumbered with some failure. Seeing the boys grow is a rewarding experience that is beyond compare. But when I recall some of the really bad meals we have had to eat, or campouts gone amok I laugh, and then it breaks my heart to recall so poorly attended activities that were planned well but not communicated well. Overall, it is worth it to see the boys mature to men. That is the reason I try to always help, encourage, and reserve judgment as we stumble through our Boy-Led-Troop.

[Horizon]

Don't know what you mean by directives.

 

The boys want to play laser-tag/paintball, I said I would love to - but BSA won't allow it. (I DID, however, point them towards Kudu's list of wide area games...)

The boys want to go shooting, I remind them that we need a range master. We have one good range master in the troop, they need to call him and see when he is available.

The boys say that they want to beach camp, the troop adults take care of the reservations for next year (nly a couple places you can beach camp where we are, and they fill fast).

The boys voted on where to go for summer camp, the troop adults dealt with the reservations.

The boys want to go backpacking, the troop adults deal with the wilderness permits.

 

So the boys drive the activities, the adults facilitate them. I don't expect boys to do tour permits, medical forms, or any of the other administrivia required in our organization.

 

Meetings are opened by the boys, with times at the beginning and end for adult announcements (usually around forms and payments). Meetings are run by the boys, with the SM walking around the different stations. That gives us a fair amount of chaos, I admit.

 

Sometimes do we step in too much - yup. Usually when there is a breakdown in youth leadership for a variety of reasons, and I want to keep the boat from sinking / someone getting hurt /etc. I always question myself when stepping in, sometimes an adult is too fast, sometime we are too slow.

Good feedback - though I disagree on where to draw the line on the paperwork I admit.

[Horizon]

I don't know about percentages but I've recently realized that the things that prevent boys from making decisions are lack of maturity, lack of trust between scouts and adults, and fuzzy boundaries between the adult and scout responsibilities. Immature boys just don't make decisions and a lack of trust kills confidence. Fuzzy responsibilities encourages boys to defer to adults and for adults to step in. Making a short, clear list of responsibilities (as well as consequences for not meeting their responsibilities) makes it easier to pull back the adults and for the boys to know it's their problem. I've recently had a lot of luck with this idea. Everyone is happier. Well, the scouts and I are happier, some of the parents are not at all happy with the chaos or some of the ideas these guys come up with.

 

And by short I mean short. I don't care what they eat as long as it has some protein and a fruit or vegetable. I don't care where they are until flags Saturday morning as long as they're quiet from 10pm to when everyone wakes and that they look out for each other's well being, I don't care when they wake up or if the eat breakfast.

 

 

 

Had a great SPL at summer camp. Camp boss came by to talk to me about how our camp wasn't in perfect military order (my paraphrase). I told him to talk to my SPL.

 

SPL looked him in the eye and said "We didn't come here to pretty up our campsite - my guys don't hang out at camp at all. As long as there isn't a safety problem, I am fine with not getting any awards."

 

Camp Boss looked at me for support, received none.

[Stosh]

Don't know what you mean by directives.

 

The boys want to play laser-tag/paintball, I said I would love to - but BSA won't allow it. (I DID, however, point them towards Kudu's list of wide area games...)

The boys want to go shooting, I remind them that we need a range master. We have one good range master in the troop, they need to call him and see when he is available.

The boys say that they want to beach camp, the troop adults take care of the reservations for next year (nly a couple places you can beach camp where we are, and they fill fast).

The boys voted on where to go for summer camp, the troop adults dealt with the reservations.

The boys want to go backpacking, the troop adults deal with the wilderness permits.

 

So the boys drive the activities, the adults facilitate them. I don't expect boys to do tour permits, medical forms, or any of the other administrivia required in our organization.

 

Meetings are opened by the boys, with times at the beginning and end for adult announcements (usually around forms and payments). Meetings are run by the boys, with the SM walking around the different stations. That gives us a fair amount of chaos, I admit.

 

Sometimes do we step in too much - yup. Usually when there is a breakdown in youth leadership for a variety of reasons, and I want to keep the boat from sinking / someone getting hurt /etc. I always question myself when stepping in, sometimes an adult is too fast, sometime we are too slow.

Like any project, activity, or event, there's plenty of paperwork that needs to be done. Where do the boys learn of this? For many the first time they might have to face it is all the paperwork of their Eagle Project. Heck, even the adults step in and do that for the boy.

 

As a learning process, doing paperwork should always be a part of the process. The Scribe's notes, the Grubmaster's menu, the QM's inventory, etc. etc. etc. The ADHD boy I had as popcorn chairman handed out the sheets, nagged the boys, collected them up each week and turned them into the council office so the boys had a chance to win prizes. He filled out the order form, directed the committee treasurer to write out the check and sign for the popcorn, then went through the records getting the product out to each scout and kept track of the money coming back in. I was totally floored! I never expected it.

 

My QM came to me and said we were running short of Dutch ovens at an event. I asked where they were all at. He knew how many were in the scout trailer and how many were on the shelves in the storeroom. He said he was one short and that if any adults wanted to do DO cooking they would be that many more short.

 

Annually each POR holder was expected to provide the committee with a written State of the Troop report for their area. Most of the boys did a less than adequate job, but the QM wanted the troop to buy more equipment, he needed an itemized report of what we had and was needed or the committee treasurer wasn't going to write any checks.

 

The Troop Chaplain came prepared every week with a brief devotional and prayer at each closing flag ceremony.

 

Research, paperwork, followup, are all necessary parts of a well-planned activity. The more the boys do, the more they invest in its success.

 

My committee treasurer did the best job of starting this process out when he told the QM that unless he had something in writing, he wouldn't know what to order, how much to order how much it cost and wouldn't have any proof when audited at the end of the year as to where the money went. It was up to the QM to figure out what that "something in writing" was. He did figure it out.

 

One of my Grubmasters took the menu's of the best meals, broke them down into shopping lists and filed in a loose-leaf notebook. After a while all he would have to do is find the meal, pull the sheet and go to the store.

 

Yeah, we have the boys go through the menu system for advancement process, but why are they re-inventing the wheel at every campout? The Grubmaster would always ask the boys to come up with their favorite meal for the requirement and then go through and pick the good ones and put them in his book.

 

It is really amazing how much the boys can learn doing "paperwork".

 

Never miss an opportunity for the boys to learn something new! Even if it's paperwork.

 

Stosh

[Stosh]

I don't know about percentages but I've recently realized that the things that prevent boys from making decisions are lack of maturity, lack of trust between scouts and adults, and fuzzy boundaries between the adult and scout responsibilities. Immature boys just don't make decisions and a lack of trust kills confidence. Fuzzy responsibilities encourages boys to defer to adults and for adults to step in. Making a short, clear list of responsibilities (as well as consequences for not meeting their responsibilities) makes it easier to pull back the adults and for the boys to know it's their problem. I've recently had a lot of luck with this idea. Everyone is happier. Well, the scouts and I are happier, some of the parents are not at all happy with the chaos or some of the ideas these guys come up with.

 

And by short I mean short. I don't care what they eat as long as it has some protein and a fruit or vegetable. I don't care where they are until flags Saturday morning as long as they're quiet from 10pm to when everyone wakes and that they look out for each other's well being, I don't care when they wake up or if the eat breakfast.

 

 

 

LOL, my boys tried that one. Didn't get much mileage once, however. For years they had camped in our local area and other than small rodents eating into packs, we didn't have much to consider in safety issues. If animals got into the food it had to be tossed, no questions asked. This worked really well until we spent one summer camp in Wyoming in grizzly country. I never thought those boys could keep a camp as clean as that. Fear from something other than camp staff and SM is a great motivator!

 

Stosh

[Horizon]

Don't know what you mean by directives.

 

The boys want to play laser-tag/paintball, I said I would love to - but BSA won't allow it. (I DID, however, point them towards Kudu's list of wide area games...)

The boys want to go shooting, I remind them that we need a range master. We have one good range master in the troop, they need to call him and see when he is available.

The boys say that they want to beach camp, the troop adults take care of the reservations for next year (nly a couple places you can beach camp where we are, and they fill fast).

The boys voted on where to go for summer camp, the troop adults dealt with the reservations.

The boys want to go backpacking, the troop adults deal with the wilderness permits.

 

So the boys drive the activities, the adults facilitate them. I don't expect boys to do tour permits, medical forms, or any of the other administrivia required in our organization.

 

Meetings are opened by the boys, with times at the beginning and end for adult announcements (usually around forms and payments). Meetings are run by the boys, with the SM walking around the different stations. That gives us a fair amount of chaos, I admit.

 

Sometimes do we step in too much - yup. Usually when there is a breakdown in youth leadership for a variety of reasons, and I want to keep the boat from sinking / someone getting hurt /etc. I always question myself when stepping in, sometimes an adult is too fast, sometime we are too slow.

Everything you just listed my boys do as well - I just don't have them deal with Council forms, legal forms, or medical forms.

[Stosh]

Don't know what you mean by directives.

 

The boys want to play laser-tag/paintball, I said I would love to - but BSA won't allow it. (I DID, however, point them towards Kudu's list of wide area games...)

The boys want to go shooting, I remind them that we need a range master. We have one good range master in the troop, they need to call him and see when he is available.

The boys say that they want to beach camp, the troop adults take care of the reservations for next year (nly a couple places you can beach camp where we are, and they fill fast).

The boys voted on where to go for summer camp, the troop adults dealt with the reservations.

The boys want to go backpacking, the troop adults deal with the wilderness permits.

 

So the boys drive the activities, the adults facilitate them. I don't expect boys to do tour permits, medical forms, or any of the other administrivia required in our organization.

 

Meetings are opened by the boys, with times at the beginning and end for adult announcements (usually around forms and payments). Meetings are run by the boys, with the SM walking around the different stations. That gives us a fair amount of chaos, I admit.

 

Sometimes do we step in too much - yup. Usually when there is a breakdown in youth leadership for a variety of reasons, and I want to keep the boat from sinking / someone getting hurt /etc. I always question myself when stepping in, sometimes an adult is too fast, sometime we are too slow.

Where do they learn to be good boy-led Scoutmasters? It was always my thought that I was training up Eagle Scouts to one day become Scoutmasters!

 

According to Kudu the patrol that can go out and have an activity without helicopter SM/ASM's are the goal of Scouting. As PL do I have the proper tour permits, camp permits, medical forms, financial concerns, and parental permission forms for all my boys?

 

This leads to an interesting conundrum... If the boys have all their ducks in order INCLUDING permission from their parents to do so, can they go without adult leaders coming along to chaperone?

 

Spin off a thread if you wish on that.

 

Stosh

[Tampa Turtle]

Basement, us too at camp last year. We got up 45 minutes before flag, and missed it. Then the SPL did 60 and missed it. We had to go to 90 before we (barely) made it. And we were really close to the parade ground. Teens!

I guess if the boys wont get up that is why the Chief Scout of all Scouts invented the Bugle.

[Tampa Turtle]

I hate when some boys screw up or are lazy and it impacts the whole Troop with a bad experience. On the other hand when the boys do it and things go smoothly it is easy to forget "hey they got it taken care of!".

[Stosh]

Basement, us too at camp last year. We got up 45 minutes before flag, and missed it. Then the SPL did 60 and missed it. We had to go to 90 before we (barely) made it. And we were really close to the parade ground. Teens!

Maybe this is why they also suggest one "air" out their bedroll during the day! The bugle is VERY effective way of getting the boys up. That means the SPL only has to tell one boy what time it is, too. I also suspect that every bugler has a deep down mean streak that he is more than happy to exercise every morning at reveille.

 

Stosh