How much?

[Stosh]

I didn't want to hijack another thread, so I'll start another one. This is a spin off of the HA activity planning thread.

 

How much leading by the boys does it take to be a good boy-led program?

 

There's always that thin red line between boy-led and adult-led. In the middle that can be a close call. But the case can be made that if the boys take leadership on 55% of the decisions is it really boy-led? I do know that the more the boys invest their time, talents and finances the more they gain from the experience. Yes the adults do coach and suggest options, but even then when one suggests solutions, they take away an opportunity to problem solve on the part of the boys. Once they learn that they can work through issues, there's a real breakthrough for the boys.

 

As a SM, it is my job to work myself out of a job. Yes, there will always be times when they bump up against a wall and will need to be coached, but at that point are solutions offered or is it more, what do you think we should do? kinda coaching? Giving solutions is not the same as having the boys struggle with the problems. The newbie that's lining up summer camp comes and says, "We need a $50 deposit on the campsite." Okay, my response is, "Where's the money going to be coming from?" It is up to the boy to decide if it's the troop treasury or the boys themselves. It's too easy to bail out the boys and direct them to a conclusion.

 

As SM every directive, every solution, every decision, every rule, takes away an opportunity for the boys to either lead or learn to lead.

 

As with most troops, I as SM I often spent too much time keeping other adults from stepping in and "taking over". Every parent watching their child struggle has a strong tendency to do just exactly that. Boys will learn nothing if adults do all the thinking for them.

 

On activities, my only job was keep asking how it was going, not do it for them. It is far more easy to just do it for them. I have been part of and witnessed as UC troops that bragged about being boy-led when it was very obvious they weren't.

 

Just yesterday I had a Webelos II DL come to me and ask about a certain troop his boys were interested in and had just visited. He gave me all the pros and cons and asked me what I thought. My only question to him was, "How many of the boys did you talk to when you were there?" He said the boys were busy with doing activities with the Webelos scouts that they didn't have time to talk to anyone other than adults. I said he had totally wasted his time because he had not talked to even one boy. If one wants to know who runs the show, just ask the boys, they'll tell you. If the SPL or one of the older boys didn't have time to talk to the adults about recruiting the Webelos boys, then he was avoiding the tough part of the process.

 

As UC I spent 90% of my time talking with the boys and 10% talking with adults. I always find it remarkable in the "boy-led" programs that I often hear, "We can't do that..." and the tag line was "...because ___________....". Fill in the blank with a name of one of the adults in the troop. The rest of the sentence is not important.

 

If I were to guess a boy-led program, I would think that 90-95% of the directives for the troop coming from the boys would be a minimum start.

 

What say ye?

 

Stosh

[Horizon]

Don't know what you mean by directives.

 

The boys want to play laser-tag/paintball, I said I would love to - but BSA won't allow it. (I DID, however, point them towards Kudu's list of wide area games...)

The boys want to go shooting, I remind them that we need a range master. We have one good range master in the troop, they need to call him and see when he is available.

The boys say that they want to beach camp, the troop adults take care of the reservations for next year (nly a couple places you can beach camp where we are, and they fill fast).

The boys voted on where to go for summer camp, the troop adults dealt with the reservations.

The boys want to go backpacking, the troop adults deal with the wilderness permits.

 

So the boys drive the activities, the adults facilitate them. I don't expect boys to do tour permits, medical forms, or any of the other administrivia required in our organization.

 

Meetings are opened by the boys, with times at the beginning and end for adult announcements (usually around forms and payments). Meetings are run by the boys, with the SM walking around the different stations. That gives us a fair amount of chaos, I admit.

 

Sometimes do we step in too much - yup. Usually when there is a breakdown in youth leadership for a variety of reasons, and I want to keep the boat from sinking / someone getting hurt /etc. I always question myself when stepping in, sometimes an adult is too fast, sometime we are too slow.

[MattR]

I don't know about percentages but I've recently realized that the things that prevent boys from making decisions are lack of maturity, lack of trust between scouts and adults, and fuzzy boundaries between the adult and scout responsibilities. Immature boys just don't make decisions and a lack of trust kills confidence. Fuzzy responsibilities encourages boys to defer to adults and for adults to step in. Making a short, clear list of responsibilities (as well as consequences for not meeting their responsibilities) makes it easier to pull back the adults and for the boys to know it's their problem. I've recently had a lot of luck with this idea. Everyone is happier. Well, the scouts and I are happier, some of the parents are not at all happy with the chaos or some of the ideas these guys come up with.

 

And by short I mean short. I don't care what they eat as long as it has some protein and a fruit or vegetable. I don't care where they are until flags Saturday morning as long as they're quiet from 10pm to when everyone wakes and that they look out for each other's well being, I don't care when they wake up or if the eat breakfast.

 

 

 

 

[qwazse]

Don't know what you mean by directives.

 

The boys want to play laser-tag/paintball, I said I would love to - but BSA won't allow it. (I DID, however, point them towards Kudu's list of wide area games...)

The boys want to go shooting, I remind them that we need a range master. We have one good range master in the troop, they need to call him and see when he is available.

The boys say that they want to beach camp, the troop adults take care of the reservations for next year (nly a couple places you can beach camp where we are, and they fill fast).

The boys voted on where to go for summer camp, the troop adults dealt with the reservations.

The boys want to go backpacking, the troop adults deal with the wilderness permits.

 

So the boys drive the activities, the adults facilitate them. I don't expect boys to do tour permits, medical forms, or any of the other administrivia required in our organization.

 

Meetings are opened by the boys, with times at the beginning and end for adult announcements (usually around forms and payments). Meetings are run by the boys, with the SM walking around the different stations. That gives us a fair amount of chaos, I admit.

 

Sometimes do we step in too much - yup. Usually when there is a breakdown in youth leadership for a variety of reasons, and I want to keep the boat from sinking / someone getting hurt /etc. I always question myself when stepping in, sometimes an adult is too fast, sometime we are too slow.

Question: (more for thought, and not judging) how essential is it that an adult make reservations, file permits, collect med forms, etc ...? Is the reason that we lose some older boys that they see their role diminishing if they are not the SPL? They feel they can take on that extra school activity or evening class because there is nothing they need to do around the scout house.

[Basementdweller]

Don't know what you mean by directives.

 

The boys want to play laser-tag/paintball, I said I would love to - but BSA won't allow it. (I DID, however, point them towards Kudu's list of wide area games...)

The boys want to go shooting, I remind them that we need a range master. We have one good range master in the troop, they need to call him and see when he is available.

The boys say that they want to beach camp, the troop adults take care of the reservations for next year (nly a couple places you can beach camp where we are, and they fill fast).

The boys voted on where to go for summer camp, the troop adults dealt with the reservations.

The boys want to go backpacking, the troop adults deal with the wilderness permits.

 

So the boys drive the activities, the adults facilitate them. I don't expect boys to do tour permits, medical forms, or any of the other administrivia required in our organization.

 

Meetings are opened by the boys, with times at the beginning and end for adult announcements (usually around forms and payments). Meetings are run by the boys, with the SM walking around the different stations. That gives us a fair amount of chaos, I admit.

 

Sometimes do we step in too much - yup. Usually when there is a breakdown in youth leadership for a variety of reasons, and I want to keep the boat from sinking / someone getting hurt /etc. I always question myself when stepping in, sometimes an adult is too fast, sometime we are too slow.

I was thinking the same thing Q. Many outside organizations will not deal with a boy. So the SPL has a sheet with my contact info for filling in those pesky forms. Then I will put the credit card info to hold the reservation.

 

Same for back country permits.

[Basementdweller]

I don't know about percentages but I've recently realized that the things that prevent boys from making decisions are lack of maturity, lack of trust between scouts and adults, and fuzzy boundaries between the adult and scout responsibilities. Immature boys just don't make decisions and a lack of trust kills confidence. Fuzzy responsibilities encourages boys to defer to adults and for adults to step in. Making a short, clear list of responsibilities (as well as consequences for not meeting their responsibilities) makes it easier to pull back the adults and for the boys to know it's their problem. I've recently had a lot of luck with this idea. Everyone is happier. Well, the scouts and I are happier, some of the parents are not at all happy with the chaos or some of the ideas these guys come up with.

 

And by short I mean short. I don't care what they eat as long as it has some protein and a fruit or vegetable. I don't care where they are until flags Saturday morning as long as they're quiet from 10pm to when everyone wakes and that they look out for each other's well being, I don't care when they wake up or if the eat breakfast.

 

 

 

So how do you deal with others schedules. My example. The SPL failed to get the troop up at summer camp two mornings resulting in missed flags and roll call and breakfast.

 

Responsibility is what I am after. He failed miserably

[Tampa Turtle]

Basement, us too at camp last year. We got up 45 minutes before flag, and missed it. Then the SPL did 60 and missed it. We had to go to 90 before we (barely) made it. And we were really close to the parade ground. Teens!

[Basementdweller]

Basement, us too at camp last year. We got up 45 minutes before flag, and missed it. Then the SPL did 60 and missed it. We had to go to 90 before we (barely) made it. And we were really close to the parade ground. Teens!

I blame the parents. Speaking with SPL mom after that happened she explained he has never gotten up to an alarm clock. He always goes in and wakes him up.

 

I mentioned it was nice of her, but he needs to use his cell phone or an alarm clock to wake up like a big boy.

[Eagledad]

I don't want to hijack the thread, so I'm not expecting an answer. But when I hear someone giving hard numbers to define their boy run program, I always wonder what hard numbers they have for percentages and priorities of using the Eigth Methods (Ideals, Outdoors, Patros, Advancement, Adult Assisation, Personal Growth, Leadership, and Uniform) in their boy run program. Barry

[Eagledad]

I don't know about percentages but I've recently realized that the things that prevent boys from making decisions are lack of maturity, lack of trust between scouts and adults, and fuzzy boundaries between the adult and scout responsibilities. Immature boys just don't make decisions and a lack of trust kills confidence. Fuzzy responsibilities encourages boys to defer to adults and for adults to step in. Making a short, clear list of responsibilities (as well as consequences for not meeting their responsibilities) makes it easier to pull back the adults and for the boys to know it's their problem. I've recently had a lot of luck with this idea. Everyone is happier. Well, the scouts and I are happier, some of the parents are not at all happy with the chaos or some of the ideas these guys come up with.

 

And by short I mean short. I don't care what they eat as long as it has some protein and a fruit or vegetable. I don't care where they are until flags Saturday morning as long as they're quiet from 10pm to when everyone wakes and that they look out for each other's well being, I don't care when they wake up or if the eat breakfast.

 

 

 

You know Base, I'm starting to respect your leadership style. Did the camp director speak with your SPL to ask why the troop is late? Camps will struggle with logistics of program and meals when Troops don't follow their schedule. For some people, responsibility is a reaction of accountibility. Barry

[Basementdweller]

I don't know about percentages but I've recently realized that the things that prevent boys from making decisions are lack of maturity, lack of trust between scouts and adults, and fuzzy boundaries between the adult and scout responsibilities. Immature boys just don't make decisions and a lack of trust kills confidence. Fuzzy responsibilities encourages boys to defer to adults and for adults to step in. Making a short, clear list of responsibilities (as well as consequences for not meeting their responsibilities) makes it easier to pull back the adults and for the boys to know it's their problem. I've recently had a lot of luck with this idea. Everyone is happier. Well, the scouts and I are happier, some of the parents are not at all happy with the chaos or some of the ideas these guys come up with.

 

And by short I mean short. I don't care what they eat as long as it has some protein and a fruit or vegetable. I don't care where they are until flags Saturday morning as long as they're quiet from 10pm to when everyone wakes and that they look out for each other's well being, I don't care when they wake up or if the eat breakfast.

 

 

 

Ya, after he chewed my butt a bit.

 

After he calmed down after roll call and the ASM responded NOT present but accounted for.

 

the CD did chew the SPL's butt a bit. He was going to offer them some pb and J.....I asked him not too. hoping to inspire the boys to get up.

[Eagledad]

I don't know about percentages but I've recently realized that the things that prevent boys from making decisions are lack of maturity, lack of trust between scouts and adults, and fuzzy boundaries between the adult and scout responsibilities. Immature boys just don't make decisions and a lack of trust kills confidence. Fuzzy responsibilities encourages boys to defer to adults and for adults to step in. Making a short, clear list of responsibilities (as well as consequences for not meeting their responsibilities) makes it easier to pull back the adults and for the boys to know it's their problem. I've recently had a lot of luck with this idea. Everyone is happier. Well, the scouts and I are happier, some of the parents are not at all happy with the chaos or some of the ideas these guys come up with.

 

And by short I mean short. I don't care what they eat as long as it has some protein and a fruit or vegetable. I don't care where they are until flags Saturday morning as long as they're quiet from 10pm to when everyone wakes and that they look out for each other's well being, I don't care when they wake up or if the eat breakfast.

 

 

 

I had the same kind of experience with camp inspections at one camp in Arkansas. After the camp commissioners finished inspecting all the camp sites, they approached me to have a friendly chat about some basic proceedures for tidier camp site. I politely change the subject to how we were working with our new SPL and that we all understand the proceedures. I pointed out that he is a good kid but the new responsibility was a bit overwhelming and he was trying very hard. I then suggested he approach my SPL and praise him for what went well in the inspection and then provide some suggested techniques for better habits and time managment where he struggled. The head commissioner knew exactly what I was asking and did an excellent job encouraging our SPL. The commissioner was so impressed by our approach that he visited everyday to just chat and see how things were going. There are basic laws to working with youth, one is not all boys are easily motivated. But if your expectation is consistent, your scouts will learn that only those who want the challenges that go with the honor should accept the position. The cream will rise to the top. The difference between Kudu and I is he will select the natural leader and put him in place. I on the other hand guide nature to take its course and encourage the system push the natural leader to the top. I would say that 8 times out of 10, we end up with the same leaders. But in my approach, the boys make the choice, not me. Barry

[Stosh]

Don't know what you mean by directives.

 

The boys want to play laser-tag/paintball, I said I would love to - but BSA won't allow it. (I DID, however, point them towards Kudu's list of wide area games...)

The boys want to go shooting, I remind them that we need a range master. We have one good range master in the troop, they need to call him and see when he is available.

The boys say that they want to beach camp, the troop adults take care of the reservations for next year (nly a couple places you can beach camp where we are, and they fill fast).

The boys voted on where to go for summer camp, the troop adults dealt with the reservations.

The boys want to go backpacking, the troop adults deal with the wilderness permits.

 

So the boys drive the activities, the adults facilitate them. I don't expect boys to do tour permits, medical forms, or any of the other administrivia required in our organization.

 

Meetings are opened by the boys, with times at the beginning and end for adult announcements (usually around forms and payments). Meetings are run by the boys, with the SM walking around the different stations. That gives us a fair amount of chaos, I admit.

 

Sometimes do we step in too much - yup. Usually when there is a breakdown in youth leadership for a variety of reasons, and I want to keep the boat from sinking / someone getting hurt /etc. I always question myself when stepping in, sometimes an adult is too fast, sometime we are too slow.

As part of any activity, the boys need to be responsible for finding out the rule limits in which they need to operate. No paintball/laser-tag per BSA regulations. It shouldn't even be a discussion between boys and adults. Same holds true for the RangeMaster requirements. The boys, even if they are running the program should not be exempt from doing their homework on it. Camp reservation? The Leader's Guide is available. It does not always say Adult Leader's Guide on the cover. If it does, it shows how boy-led the camp is focused on.

 

The boys pick the activities and the adults do the facilitation leadership? Not really boy-led in my book, but everyone has their own opinion on that.

 

As far as the paperwork is concerned isn't that the responsibility of the Scribe? We have a ton of threads about how the youth are not fulfilling their POR's and yet we suck the responsibility out of such POR's by adult interference?

 

I had a 12 year-old boy take on Popcorn Chair and he did a fantastic job, and the only thing an adult did (at the boy's directive) signed for the popcorn and write the check from the troop's funds.

 

Stosh

[qwazse]

I don't want to hijack the thread, so I'm not expecting an answer. But when I hear someone giving hard numbers to define their boy run program, I always wonder what hard numbers they have for percentages and priorities of using the Eigth Methods (Ideals, Outdoors, Patros, Advancement, Adult Assisation, Personal Growth, Leadership, and Uniform) in their boy run program. Barry

I suppose you could make benchmarks for all of those, let's see:

 

- Ideals: % of boys who can say oath and law independently.

- Outdoors: % of outdoor activities set by PLC. % implemented by boys.

- Patrols: % of meetings where PL can report.attendance with none unaccounted for.

- Advancement: % of youth signatures in books on requirements.

- Adult association: % of boys who've contacted an adult about any given aspect of the program, or % of adults acting because a boy specifically requested them to do so.

- Personal Growth: % of boys with an immediate answer to the question "So, what's the plan?"

- Leadership: % of boys in PORs for whom you can name one specific accomplishment in the past couple of months. % of boys not in PORs whom you recall "stepping up."

- Uniform: % of uniform inspection initiated by SPL/PL.

 

For most of us who banter about "boy-led," we have a couple of methods up near 100%, most near %50, some at 0%. Obviously, what that means is that a person may say 100% boy-led, but may only be thinking about it in terms of the methods that they think should be 100% boy-led. Even within a category, I may have a blind spot simply because I'll take for granted that "nobody in their right mind would leave ___ up to the boys."

[Stosh]

I don't want to hijack the thread, so I'm not expecting an answer. But when I hear someone giving hard numbers to define their boy run program, I always wonder what hard numbers they have for percentages and priorities of using the Eigth Methods (Ideals, Outdoors, Patros, Advancement, Adult Assisation, Personal Growth, Leadership, and Uniform) in their boy run program. Barry

I'll bite on that one. I too, don't think hard numbers or even percentages are the answer, but they give a ballpark estimate of kinda where we stand on any part of the program.

 

Just take uniform because it has some objective measurements that are obvious. Are the boys all in full uniform according to the Inspection Sheet? Yes/No. Yes, means we have accomplished our goal, no means we have an opportunity to work on improvement. Who is going to take the lead on that? An adult or one of the boys? Who gets the opportunity for leadership?

 

Outdoors - How many outdoor activities are happening? How many meetings/month, etc. Are 100% of the boys showing up for 100% of the activities? Yes/No. Yes, no problem, no, well there's a gap between what the troop is striving for and what is reality, and that gap is measurable. So, who's going to take the lead on the situation? Who is going to get the opportunity to work on it? Too often adults step in and start throwing out numbers like, the boys need to attend X% of the meetings and X% of the outings to advance. Now the adults are dictating their leadership over the boys.

 

So as with any endeavor in the troop, who's taking the lead? Who's getting the opportunity to lead? Okay, you're the new PL, here's a list of all your responsibilities necessary to fulfill that job to get credit for POR. Okay, who made up the list? Adults? Boys? If they made up the list they would know what the job entails and because they make the rules, I have found they tend to adhere better to them.

 

Maturity problems? How much experience does a boy have when he's given to opportunity to lead? Webelos II crossover, brand new in the troop. He has a requirement to do 1 hour's worth of service project. Does he wait until something comes along or is he given the opportunity to organize a service project for the troop? (We teach the boys to sit around and wait for someone else to lead!) Sure why not have him give it a try? So it goes south and crashes and burns. SMC time to sit down and work out what he's going to do the next time differently. By the time he gets a year or so under his belt he will have the basics ironed out. I find that with some adults the service project is #1 priority, but with boy-led maybe the #1 priority is teaching scouts how to set one up and organize it. So he's Grubmaster next, and he has to organize menus, gear and food. Then he moves on to PL and organizes patrol activites that require fees, gear, etc. He knows the Grubmaster responsibilities so he can have a patrol member take charge of that and assist him in doing it. If he has had QM responsibilities previously, he can help the QM too. If he does a few of these along the way each year, the Eagle Project will be a piece of cake.

 

The method is the defining parameter in which we as adults coach opportunities for the boys. Anytime a SM asks the SPL how are we doing in the area of XXX? The SPL should have a ballpark % of we are 25%, 50% 75% or 100%. Depending on how the boy feels about answer that question will determine whether or not there is an opportunity to improve and who wants to take lead on that?

 

Stosh