How to scout a new troop ?

[King Ding Dong]

As many of you know I have not been thrilled with the program in our troop. It is not fully active, does not meet during summer outside camp and HA, mostly do nothing PORs except for SPL, low participation rate, ad hoc patrols, highest active age is 14, "high speed, low drag". Not everything is horrible about it, and there are some really great people but it certainly is not turning out as I envisioned. Seems like a great troop for boys involved with a lot of other activities. There is not enough parental involvement or scouting knowledge to change things.

 

My son if young for his grade just turned 11, ADHD, awkward, geeky, skinny, glasses, not strong, not good with team sports, a bit emotionally immature, does not have many close friends, recently we relocated from out of state. He loves scouts and wants to go to every meeting and outing, but doesn't really know other options exist. Especially from information acquired from this board I do know are other choices. I am not sure what I am looking for, but this isn't it. We are not a organized religion family, so I am leery of the influence a church based unit, but not completely opposed.

 

We visited a fairly close unit last night that had these components.

 

"Dads of" CO that meets in basement of City Hall

Trailer Troop with well stocked storage room.

90 scouts, about 40 at last nights meeting, ages up to 16-17

1 short term per month, 1 local activity per month, several scheduled service projects

No 300', citing safety issues.

Told committee of 40, 20 have WB, hoard of ASMs

Fundraising through concessions at city events and pizza sales, scout accounts, no popcorn sales

Estimated program cost including summer camp $1000-1500/yr Told scout can pay his full amount if participates in all fundraising.

At the back of troop meeting there was a table of 3 Banana Republic Generals taking notes to provide feedback after the meeting to the PLC.

Meeting was completely boy led, with only a few announcements at the end by a couple of adults, one was inviting some older scouts on a Venture activity.

Recognized at least 3 of the leaders on District Training Staff.

T1 requirements: SM acknowledged they lean more toward the "once and done" side of the scale than mastery, but emphasize continued learning through teaching the younger scouts.

SM said about 50% participation rate on outings. Only occasional need to combine a patrols. Patrols seemed about 10 at meeting.

Their uniform "problems" they are working on are correct shoes and socks. Most boys had collars folded under, with neckers. At my troops last meeting only a couple of the scouts had a uniform shirt on, some had a troop t shirt.

Son was invited as a guest to Fall Camporee in a couple of weeks. Our PLC opted out as it is "boring".

Run TLT one day twice a year.

Decent mix of outings including hikes, climbing, pioneer kit, wilderness survival, caving, float trip (Canoe MB required), cabin, midnight ski, zipline, no COPE however.

 

When my wife heard no popcorn sales the response was "What are you waiting for, JOIN NOW, I'm not kidding !"

My thoughts are this is 100 times better

 

Thoughts ?

What should I be looking for, what questions do I need to ask ?

Should all the Critters scare me away, or assure me at least some minimal standards are maintained ?

 

 

 

 

[Basementdweller]

It does sound like the promised land....compared to where your at.....but there is nothing wrong with one and done in the context of what he said.

[Basementdweller]

It does sound like the promised land....compared to where your at.....but there is nothing wrong with one and done in the context of what he said.

But more importantly what does your lad think.....

[King Ding Dong]

It does sound like the promised land....compared to where your at.....but there is nothing wrong with one and done in the context of what he said.

He seemed fine with it. Hey, they threw out jolly ranchers for correct answers. . He has a concern about leaving his patrol, but it is now down to 4 it will need to be integrated soon. The past few meetings have been small enough there was really no dividing into patrols. I think he will have a better feeling for it after the campout. Ultimately it will be his choice, but he is so new to BS he doesn't really understand there is a forest to see.

 

I plan on visiting at least three troops and make sure he spends at least a couple of meetings and one outing before jumping ship. I don't want to bounce around.

 

One thing I forgot to mention was the meeting schedule in two troop meetings a month, one patrol meeting and, one PLC meeting. Can't remember what they do with the 5th 4 times a year.

 

I suspect the generals surround the monthly PLC and coach, might see if I can drop in on one.

[Stosh]

As I read through the two troops, they seem to be extreme opposites. With that being said, you will not like my choice of the two. Personally, if it was my kid, the problems of your current troop can be corrected, but the other troop with 40 people on the committee, half wood badge, a "hoard" of ASM's, no 300', etc. it seems like a mega-adult run program.

 

Your kid sounds like me as a kid and I have a ADD son myself so i know where you are coming from. Your best bet would be to help the existing troop improve rather than lock into a troop that isn't going to change a thing.

 

You said there are a lot of nice people in the first troop, but lack skills. Those can easily be acquired and they might actually welcome any coaching, assisting to improve their program. Not enough parental support? You're a parent, roll up your sleeves and get to work.

 

I ran a year-round program with a committee of 5 adults and me and 1 ASM. We had parents help out whenever asked for an occasional activity here or there and for driving. We had a troop of 24 scouts, 3 patrols.

 

Because we were not adult-top heavy, the boys ran the program and it worked very well. Well, until the parents of a couple of scouts complained that the boys were expected to do too much leadership, stepped in, took over and I was on the outside looking in.

 

There was another troop like your second one described a few miles away, run by an iron-fisted SM and a "hoard" of ASM's. Once the boys realized they were not going to be able to run their own troop, they shifted over to the other troop (about half of them) and just let the adults do everything for them. They figured as long as they were going to end up with an adult led program, might as well be one that's bigger and they won't have to do as much work for the same benefit.

 

If it was me, listen to the advice of this forum, learn and share with the troop you are currently with, roll up your sleeves and help it be the troop which is the real promised land,

 

Remember as you scout out new troops, they know you're in the market, they will put their best foot forward, but buyer beware. Read the fine print. Turn over a couple of rocks and see what's really there.

 

Right now I have an unorganized troop with one lone scout attending every week. A second scout is due to join in mid November, we are recruiting from their pool of friends, and just yesterday, I got an email from a pack wanting their Webelos II come and visit our "troop". I have both parents of the first boy ready to sign on as registered adults. Am I frustrated after 9 months of work? Heck no... I see potential and opportunity around every corner I turn. This is great! Oh, and by the way, your son sound exactly like the lone scout in my troop.

 

Stosh

[Kudu]

KDD,

 

 

No adult voices until announcements at the end? That is impressive.

 

 

"Most boys had collars folded under, with neckers" is a small but good thing.

 

 

Older Scouts is usually a good sign.

 

 

As for a unit of 90 Scouts, Baden-Powell limited Troops to 32 Scouts, but that was when all 32 loved Scouting. The advantage of 90 Scouts is that perhaps 30-45 are potentially competent enough in the backwoods to allow ad hoc backpacking Patrols (without adults during the day), and 300 foot Patrols at night (when away from the rest of the Troop).

 

 

"No 300', citing safety issues" and "Run TLT one day twice a year" is redundant!

 

 

You can not replace Patrol Leaders every six months and camp safely without Bruce Tuckman helicopters (hence "20 have WB" and you "Recognized at least 3 of the leaders on District Training Staff.")

 

 

I'm not familiar with your current situation.

[koolaidman]

KDD: Exploring your options is the right thing to do! A smaller troop may be what you're looking for. If your son is inclined, take them up on the offer of Camporee. That will give you the added bonus of checking out other troops at once. jblake47 has good advice and I don't disagree with BD either. This troop sounds better than your current situation, but I'd still look around.

 

Other items to think about:

 

Patrols: mixed age/NSP? Do they act as patrols or a troop? Patrol yells, flags? Are the permanent? Do the reorganize frequently? Are the patrol method or troop method?

 

Leadership: How often are elections held? How many PORS? Do they "require" a minimum rank, or training for a POR?

 

Advancement: do they believe you need to be First Class to start merit badges? What is done for scouts that are not advancing? SM conference? BOR? How many Eagles in the past three years? What is the "paper trail" of recording advancements so that Advancement chair gets info? Who signs off? (SM, ASM, patrol leader?), and where do items get signed off? (camp out, after meetings?)

 

Camping: Where did they go last year? Where are they going this year? (if same, indicates possible rut). do they go big or small? How many adults are hovering over the patrols? How many non-Scoutmaster trained adults go on the campouts?

 

Cash: What happens to your scout account if you transfer out (per troop policy, regardless of your position on scout accounts)

 

Uniform: Nazis present? Neckers required? Do they require you buy 1,2,3,4 or 5 activity unis?

 

(all those critters would scare the bejeebers out of me, but that's been hashed out here before hasn't it?)

 

Trust your gut when meeting the SM.

 

Good luck! Keep us informed!

[NeverAnEagle]

Why are you limiting your options to just two troops?

 

With my oldest we made the mistake of going from the cub unit that was the "feeder" for the troop to the troop by the same CO, because it was expected. It turned out to be a huge mistake.

 

When the second son was a Weblo I made a point of taking on a troop visit to every unit in the area that allowed "outside" denominations. When we visited our first "other" troop the boys were so impressed by the improvement that they insisted this was "the one," but I told them they were going to make an informed decision and insisted that they would visit the rest and that we could still join that troop if that was their decision after visiting all the others. The boys had to visit several troops before they found the one they are currently in and it wasn't the first "other" troop we visited.

 

I guess that you should look at it like shopping for a new house; you don't buy the first one you come across that is better than what you currently have. Take the time to make sure it's a good fit for you and the lads.

[King Ding Dong]

Why are you limiting your options to just two troops?

 

With my oldest we made the mistake of going from the cub unit that was the "feeder" for the troop to the troop by the same CO, because it was expected. It turned out to be a huge mistake.

 

When the second son was a Weblo I made a point of taking on a troop visit to every unit in the area that allowed "outside" denominations. When we visited our first "other" troop the boys were so impressed by the improvement that they insisted this was "the one," but I told them they were going to make an informed decision and insisted that they would visit the rest and that we could still join that troop if that was their decision after visiting all the others. The boys had to visit several troops before they found the one they are currently in and it wasn't the first "other" troop we visited.

 

I guess that you should look at it like shopping for a new house; you don't buy the first one you come across that is better than what you currently have. Take the time to make sure it's a good fit for you and the lads.

You must have missed this.

 

"I plan on visiting at least three troops and make sure he spends at least a couple of meetings and one outing before jumping ship. I don't want to bounce around."

 

However that will prove expensive as troop dues are next month.

[jpstodwftexas]

You shouldn't be looking for anything, your Son should be the One Looking.

 

Personally I will tell you How I decided which troop to join when I moved from California back to Wichita Falls Texas. You Decide which one I joined

 

First Troop I went and Looked at (Biggest and Richest in Town at Time). Adult Scouters set me down..gave me My Eagle Schedule.

Fancy Scout Hut..Not well Kept..Plenty of awards on the Wall..Scouts running Around..Uniforms untidy.. No Dues..No Adults Involved in Meeting. Only Scoutmaster in Uniform.

reputation of an EAGLE FACTORY...

 

Second Troop (Another Big One and Money) as a First Troop..Nice Facilities..Introduced me as a Guest and Then Talked to me about Eagle. No Dues..Some Adults involved..Only Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster in Uniform..Reputation not as Bad as First in the Ways of Eagle Manufacturing.

 

Third Troop (Small in size, meet in a Scout Hut that was barely big enough, Had a Fire place though. Scout Hut was more of a Shack than anything else Hut was Like 12x20, No AIR, No Heating Except Fireplace) Equipment hanging out of the Open Rafters, Awards Every Where. Scouts were in Uniform, Orderly, Quite, Polite..Leaders Welcomed me and said Go Meet the Boys..There was about 8 in the Troop. They were planning Menu for Next Camping Trip...One joked New Guy gets to Plan the Menu. Had Refreshments.. Dues were 50 cents per week. Elderly Scouter talking with Boys about Nature. Every Registered Scouter involved in Troop in Full Uniform. Not Known for Many Eagles

 

Three visits was enough for me to find

[NeverAnEagle]

Why are you limiting your options to just two troops?

 

With my oldest we made the mistake of going from the cub unit that was the "feeder" for the troop to the troop by the same CO, because it was expected. It turned out to be a huge mistake.

 

When the second son was a Weblo I made a point of taking on a troop visit to every unit in the area that allowed "outside" denominations. When we visited our first "other" troop the boys were so impressed by the improvement that they insisted this was "the one," but I told them they were going to make an informed decision and insisted that they would visit the rest and that we could still join that troop if that was their decision after visiting all the others. The boys had to visit several troops before they found the one they are currently in and it wasn't the first "other" troop we visited.

 

I guess that you should look at it like shopping for a new house; you don't buy the first one you come across that is better than what you currently have. Take the time to make sure it's a good fit for you and the lads.

I only read your opening post and was responding to that.

 

You don't have to pay dues to any troop that you are not a member of, so it shouldn't be to expensive. I'd run from any troop that wants dues before you've become committed. Let your current troop know you are shopping; re-charter isn't due until December so dues can be put on until then. If they won't take maybe for an answer ask yourself, "Do you really want to stay in a group that won't work with you?"

[King Ding Dong]

As I read through the two troops, they seem to be extreme opposites. With that being said, you will not like my choice of the two. Personally, if it was my kid, the problems of your current troop can be corrected, but the other troop with 40 people on the committee, half wood badge, a "hoard" of ASM's, no 300', etc. it seems like a mega-adult run program.

 

Your kid sounds like me as a kid and I have a ADD son myself so i know where you are coming from. Your best bet would be to help the existing troop improve rather than lock into a troop that isn't going to change a thing.

 

You said there are a lot of nice people in the first troop, but lack skills. Those can easily be acquired and they might actually welcome any coaching, assisting to improve their program. Not enough parental support? You're a parent, roll up your sleeves and get to work.

 

I ran a year-round program with a committee of 5 adults and me and 1 ASM. We had parents help out whenever asked for an occasional activity here or there and for driving. We had a troop of 24 scouts, 3 patrols.

 

Because we were not adult-top heavy, the boys ran the program and it worked very well. Well, until the parents of a couple of scouts complained that the boys were expected to do too much leadership, stepped in, took over and I was on the outside looking in.

 

There was another troop like your second one described a few miles away, run by an iron-fisted SM and a "hoard" of ASM's. Once the boys realized they were not going to be able to run their own troop, they shifted over to the other troop (about half of them) and just let the adults do everything for them. They figured as long as they were going to end up with an adult led program, might as well be one that's bigger and they won't have to do as much work for the same benefit.

 

If it was me, listen to the advice of this forum, learn and share with the troop you are currently with, roll up your sleeves and help it be the troop which is the real promised land,

 

Remember as you scout out new troops, they know you're in the market, they will put their best foot forward, but buyer beware. Read the fine print. Turn over a couple of rocks and see what's really there.

 

Right now I have an unorganized troop with one lone scout attending every week. A second scout is due to join in mid November, we are recruiting from their pool of friends, and just yesterday, I got an email from a pack wanting their Webelos II come and visit our "troop". I have both parents of the first boy ready to sign on as registered adults. Am I frustrated after 9 months of work? Heck no... I see potential and opportunity around every corner I turn. This is great! Oh, and by the way, your son sound exactly like the lone scout in my troop.

 

Stosh

I have been tried to remain optimistic about change, but 6 months of effort have proved futile so far. SM is mine in 6 months if I want it, but the parents are not going to want me. I have talked to many of them and they like things just how they are. Low drag, Eagle and done. They Talk the talk about do nothing POR but don't hold their own sons accountable. Could only find one other dad to take climbing training. On said to me "I can't take any more training because then I will be asked to go on more of these things". What do you say to that ?

 

CC wants the boys to do more, but wont push the issue, because the troop is small. Won't support removing PORs for failure to do anything. Current SM obviously won't do anything about it. The only thing the PLC plans is what they want to do and patrol menus.

 

Scouting skills amount many of the parents is not the big problem, it is knowledge of what things should be like and they don't want to hear it. They want their Eagle however they can get it as long as it doesn't interfere with football, soccer, fall ball or lacrosse. I just sat on a BOR for an 18 month Life, I read the GTA, not much I could do since the troop will not set expectations for PORs.

 

I thought I could slowly change things, but without parental buy in I am not so sure I can. Where does they leave my son ?

[King Ding Dong]

KDD,

 

 

No adult voices until announcements at the end? That is impressive.

 

 

"Most boys had collars folded under, with neckers" is a small but good thing.

 

 

Older Scouts is usually a good sign.

 

 

As for a unit of 90 Scouts, Baden-Powell limited Troops to 32 Scouts, but that was when all 32 loved Scouting. The advantage of 90 Scouts is that perhaps 30-45 are potentially competent enough in the backwoods to allow ad hoc backpacking Patrols (without adults during the day), and 300 foot Patrols at night (when away from the rest of the Troop).

 

 

"No 300', citing safety issues" and "Run TLT one day twice a year" is redundant!

 

 

You can not replace Patrol Leaders every six months and camp safely without Bruce Tuckman helicopters (hence "20 have WB" and you "Recognized at least 3 of the leaders on District Training Staff.")

 

 

I'm not familiar with your current situation.

Thanks Kudu I value your input. We just relocated a year ago and my oldest crossed over from the feeder pack 6 months ago. I am now IH so I could force change, but but few would follow.

[King Ding Dong]

KDD: Exploring your options is the right thing to do! A smaller troop may be what you're looking for. If your son is inclined, take them up on the offer of Camporee. That will give you the added bonus of checking out other troops at once. jblake47 has good advice and I don't disagree with BD either. This troop sounds better than your current situation, but I'd still look around.

 

Other items to think about:

 

Patrols: mixed age/NSP? Do they act as patrols or a troop? Patrol yells, flags? Are the permanent? Do the reorganize frequently? Are the patrol method or troop method?

 

Leadership: How often are elections held? How many PORS? Do they "require" a minimum rank, or training for a POR?

 

Advancement: do they believe you need to be First Class to start merit badges? What is done for scouts that are not advancing? SM conference? BOR? How many Eagles in the past three years? What is the "paper trail" of recording advancements so that Advancement chair gets info? Who signs off? (SM, ASM, patrol leader?), and where do items get signed off? (camp out, after meetings?)

 

Camping: Where did they go last year? Where are they going this year? (if same, indicates possible rut). do they go big or small? How many adults are hovering over the patrols? How many non-Scoutmaster trained adults go on the campouts?

 

Cash: What happens to your scout account if you transfer out (per troop policy, regardless of your position on scout accounts)

 

Uniform: Nazis present? Neckers required? Do they require you buy 1,2,3,4 or 5 activity unis?

 

(all those critters would scare the bejeebers out of me, but that's been hashed out here before hasn't it?)

 

Trust your gut when meeting the SM.

 

Good luck! Keep us informed!

Lots of great questions. I know a few of the answers.

 

Yes NSP then mixed in. Patrols are determined by SM with input from Scouts to keep as many friends as possible. At meeting they were seated as patrols, will have to see how they operate in the field. Yes mixed age. Six month elections, not sure if they are reorganized.

 

Non-trained adults are allowed on events to observe, SM said the friendly hand on the shoulder if they get to close.

 

From photo gallery looks like lax on activity uniforms. Looks like they encourage complete uniform. Only one scout was out of uniform, other than socks and shoes.

 

13 Eagles last year. 90 scouts. Not sure what to make of that. This is in the best school district in the state.

 

Not one peep out of an adult until the very end and announcements were short. Unlike summer camp this year where they went on forever.

 

The SPL and two others were running the show and seemed to be well prepared with clipboards. SM said all were NYLT. topic was cooking/safe food handling. They brought in 3 chuck boxes, set them up and did and inspection.

 

Must say I was impressed with their public speaking abilities.

 

Judging by photo gallery they are not in a rut but seem to do a battlefield hike each year. jblake has to like that.

[frankpalazzi]

Things that raised "red flags" with me":

 

"Dads of" CO: These kinds of COs always seem to have issues, and too many of them.

 

"No 300', citing safety issues": Potential "helicopterism"---I've run into this before.

 

"Told committee of 40, 20 have WB, hoard of ASMs": How in HADES do you find jobs in a single scout troop for 40 people???? Their committee meetings must be LOOOONNNG!

 

"At the back of troop meeting there was a table of 3 Banana Republic Generals taking notes to provide feedback after the meeting to the PLC." : Who are they? Why are they doing this? Is this really a BOY run Troop?

 

"Recognized at least 3 of the leaders on District Training Staff.": This means nothing to the boys.

 

"Their uniform "problems" they are working on are correct shoes and socks.": If this really is an issue for them, I'd say they're doing pretty well in the uniform department. Who's being this picky? The PLC? Or dare I say, the adults?

 

My opinions only, because you asked!

 

-Frank