revoking a youth member

[qwazse]

Just getting ducks in a row for a sit down with the cc mom and scout.

Agree this is one where the boy needs to understand that the next step for him is not another troop, it's juvy. Letting him stay is out of the question. Letting him know that you've talked to other SMs who, for the sake of their boys who don't want to be objects of rage, who would not countenance a violent kid in their unit.

[5scoutmom]

Some years ago, there was an older boy in my son's troop who wound up going to a juvy like alternative school. His next step was prison. I think it was drugs, not violence. There was a scout troop at the school and this boy joined it. He became a leader and when he left the school, he returned to our troop and made Eagle. I saw his dad recently and learned that he was so inspired by the second chance he'd been given in scouting that he went to college AND grad school, became a social worker and is an ASM for a troop for troubled kids. Sometimes, a kid takes a bad turn but keeping him on a good path can turn him back on the right path. Scouting didn't give up on him and he realized he could do it the right way. Note that my feelings differ about violence - I don't think kids who hurt other kids belong in scouting at all.

[Bando]

Some years ago, there was an older boy in my son's troop who wound up going to a juvy like alternative school. His next step was prison. I think it was drugs, not violence. There was a scout troop at the school and this boy joined it. He became a leader and when he left the school, he returned to our troop and made Eagle. I saw his dad recently and learned that he was so inspired by the second chance he'd been given in scouting that he went to college AND grad school, became a social worker and is an ASM for a troop for troubled kids. Sometimes, a kid takes a bad turn but keeping him on a good path can turn him back on the right path. Scouting didn't give up on him and he realized he could do it the right way. Note that my feelings differ about violence - I don't think kids who hurt other kids belong in scouting at all.

Bravo! Instead of thinking about all the ways we can try to kick a kid out of our troops, we should think about what kinds of opportunities keeping them in the program will give them in the long run. Seems to me there's a lot of folks around here just looking for ways to eliminate problems in their troops by kicking the can down the street, instead of taking an active role in helping kids grow up and take responsibility for their actions within a structured environment equipped to help them grow.

 

Sometimes it's hard work, but isn't it worth trying to keep a kid in the program instead of making him deal with his problems without a nurturing environment like a scout troop?

[Basementdweller]

Some years ago, there was an older boy in my son's troop who wound up going to a juvy like alternative school. His next step was prison. I think it was drugs, not violence. There was a scout troop at the school and this boy joined it. He became a leader and when he left the school, he returned to our troop and made Eagle. I saw his dad recently and learned that he was so inspired by the second chance he'd been given in scouting that he went to college AND grad school, became a social worker and is an ASM for a troop for troubled kids. Sometimes, a kid takes a bad turn but keeping him on a good path can turn him back on the right path. Scouting didn't give up on him and he realized he could do it the right way. Note that my feelings differ about violence - I don't think kids who hurt other kids belong in scouting at all.

Ok, Bando, don your white hat and try to rescue every kid with issues. Scouting is not social services, we are not family councilors, we are not mental health thearpy.....

 

This young man in my troop is much lik scoutmom's boy......Not drugs but violence, Maybe a trip to juvy would help him out.....But first and foremost is the safety of the boys in my troop....There is a zero tolerance for violence.

 

So how many boys are you going to lose trying to turn a bad kid around. I have taken two written complaints in the form of emails from his latest victims parents. I will present them tonight to the troop committee at this evenings meeting.

 

I know the family history, He is a bully because of mom and dad, looking at the causes fo bullying he has experienced most of them...

 

 

So Bando, are you a qualified mental health professional, I am not.

So Bando, are you prepared to explain to troop parents why their scout is bruised or injured at the hands of a lad who has known violent tendencies.

So Bando, are you prepared to be sued by the Parents if you diagnose their boy with an issue. There was a story posted here of an SM asking parents to get help for their lad, they did and then sued the SM for part of the cost of treatment.

[qwazse]

Some years ago, there was an older boy in my son's troop who wound up going to a juvy like alternative school. His next step was prison. I think it was drugs, not violence. There was a scout troop at the school and this boy joined it. He became a leader and when he left the school, he returned to our troop and made Eagle. I saw his dad recently and learned that he was so inspired by the second chance he'd been given in scouting that he went to college AND grad school, became a social worker and is an ASM for a troop for troubled kids. Sometimes, a kid takes a bad turn but keeping him on a good path can turn him back on the right path. Scouting didn't give up on him and he realized he could do it the right way. Note that my feelings differ about violence - I don't think kids who hurt other kids belong in scouting at all.

"A scout is kind."

Sometimes the best way to help a person is to tell them they don't belong.

[Bando]

Some years ago, there was an older boy in my son's troop who wound up going to a juvy like alternative school. His next step was prison. I think it was drugs, not violence. There was a scout troop at the school and this boy joined it. He became a leader and when he left the school, he returned to our troop and made Eagle. I saw his dad recently and learned that he was so inspired by the second chance he'd been given in scouting that he went to college AND grad school, became a social worker and is an ASM for a troop for troubled kids. Sometimes, a kid takes a bad turn but keeping him on a good path can turn him back on the right path. Scouting didn't give up on him and he realized he could do it the right way. Note that my feelings differ about violence - I don't think kids who hurt other kids belong in scouting at all.

Well, my approach to scouting is to find ways to keep kids in the program, even if it means it might be inconvenient or difficult. I'd rather have a difficult time finding a way to help a kid who has problems than put it off on someone else and kick the can down the street.

 

I'm sorry you're having this problem, but from my perspective, you might want to try to use scouting for positive, not punitive ends, and see what happens from there. There are ways of helping this boy within scouting without sending him packing. Either you or another leader (maybe both, to ensure two-deep) could volunteer to meet with him isolated from a troop situation for a while and work on a merit badge or scoutcraft skill. Use that as a teaching moment and opportunity to help him better interact with others. It might be all he needs is to know someone actually cares about him enough to take an interest. You don't know why he's being violent, or what other issues there may be under the surface. It could be all he needs is a little boost and/or attention. Maybe if he has a buddy in the troop, you could partner them up as a kind of accountability-buddy situation while he's working his way back to the full troop setting. The keys here are controlled contact and expressed concern, with reasonable expectations for behavioral modification. Stay positive, but firm, set out your expectations, and be persistent. If he doesn't want to be a part of it, let him make that decision on his own instead of you or the troop committee making that decision for him. Give him incentives to want to be better, and hold him to your expectations.

 

These are kids. Their habits and personalities are not etched in stone. We can either take the opportunity to be part of the solution in helping a kid who isn't making good choices and decisions, or we can get quick on the trigger to point fingers, make hasty judgments, or bail altogether. I err towards the former. If you err towards the latter, that's your choice, but it strikes me as the easy way out.

 

I had scouting buddies along the way who had both approaches applied to them by different scout leaders. Fifteen years down the road, having kept tabs on a lot of them, the ones who had an adult who took an active interest and used the troop framework to make a goodwill effort to help them through their problems made it a heck of a lot farther than the guys who were sent packing.

 

As adults, we're not here for the easy scouts, but to help the difficult ones up the trail, right? Call it altruistic, but I've seen it work over and over and over again. Scouting is designed to help boys develop leadership skills and become better people in a world that often presents them with adversity. So shouldn't we be trying to find ways not only to nurture those ideals, but also exhibit them ourselves?

[Basementdweller]

Some years ago, there was an older boy in my son's troop who wound up going to a juvy like alternative school. His next step was prison. I think it was drugs, not violence. There was a scout troop at the school and this boy joined it. He became a leader and when he left the school, he returned to our troop and made Eagle. I saw his dad recently and learned that he was so inspired by the second chance he'd been given in scouting that he went to college AND grad school, became a social worker and is an ASM for a troop for troubled kids. Sometimes, a kid takes a bad turn but keeping him on a good path can turn him back on the right path. Scouting didn't give up on him and he realized he could do it the right way. Note that my feelings differ about violence - I don't think kids who hurt other kids belong in scouting at all.

Well I suppose next time he gives a kid a bloody nose I could have him do the first aid

The next time he gives a kid a contusion have him administer first aid.

 

Naw, I will not sacrifice the troop to save one lad. how many more fights before we start losing boys.

 

I have a pretty good idea on why he is a bully, Mom and Dad beat him as a kid, he raised himself, mom and dad divorced and dad disappeared. His mom bullys him, he has very low self esteem. He is physically larger than most the boys in the troop and uses his size to intimidate......after training the troop, including him, on resisting bullying he has now resorted to violence.

 

He blooded his best scout buddies nose, interested to see what happens tonight....

 

Bando, it is easy in your world of suburbs, two parent house holds, and units with as many adult leaders as boys......That is not my reality. Absentee parents, neglect and three active adults run the program for 30 boys. You have read my post dealing with bed bugs, lice and boys being sent camping with us sick with the flu and strep throat, parents disappear unable to be reached for pick up during the outing, imagine that........

 

My world is far from neat and tidy like yours.......I do not have the time or resources to deal with a boy who I cannot trust and is a threat to the others of the unit. I have spoke with him several times prior to this about hitting other boys, he drew blood last week, now written warning and next trip he is out of the troop.....CC is talking about getting his membership revoked at a council level.....Yes it was that bad....

 

 

That was the only thing that came from the committee meeting was I need to follow the troop policy which means I can not immediately suspend him...... I have to council with parent and a written warning first and then suspension.

[qwazse]

I'm still siding with BD on this one, and our unit deserved the banner "Troop XXX: we take bad kids." Yes, we've had a few thugs. Some of them had their own "personal adult attendants." I've been one of those at times. But we're not talking an indoor basketball league here. In our game, every boy can carry a knife or axe and every rock and stick can be an instant bludgeon or missile.

 

We're pretty clear to our boys. If you can't instantly apologize when you've heated things up, or say you need to step away so you don't heat things up, if a unit that needs to be constantly "on edge" because of you, ... well it isn't functioning the way it needs to provide the personal growth every one expects from it.

 

The nicest thing a committee can do for a kid who thinks he's above the law, sometimes, is show him the door. Everyone, even the other bullies in the bunch, NEED TO REST ASSURED THAT EXPULSION IS LIKELY if you are having trouble maintaining personal discipline.

[Scouter99]

Bando' date=' it is easy in your world of suburbs, two parent house holds, and units with as many adult leaders as boys......That is not my reality. Absentee parents, neglect and three active adults run the program for 30 boys. You have read my post dealing with bed bugs, lice and boys being sent camping with us sick with the flu and strep throat, parents disappear unable to be reached for pick up during the outing, imagine that........ [/quote']

 

While I don't deny that poverty presents more/different issues, I have to tell ya that the "you can never understand" schtick is so old at this point. My troop is located in a mid- to upper-middle class suburb, most boys have two parents, none of them are hungry, half of them go to private school or specialty programs, yada yada yada

So it may surprise you to know that in the past ten years we've suspended or removed boys for drugs, knife threats, fighting, and theft. But you, like, don't live in my world, man, so I wouldn't expect you to understand that. Your jaded vision of the 'burbs where money=no problems is no more reality than some people's inability to understand your neighborhood.

Bando might live in a McMansion for all I know, but his approach to the same problem you and I have both faced is just that: His approach. It isn't simply a result of his financial situation. I don't care how much money myself or a Scout's dad have, when he lays hands on another boy (or his own mother after a meeting in one case of a defense contractor's son) he has a membership problem with me that doesn't include Bando's touchy-feely track.

[qwazse]

I'm still siding with BD on this one, and our unit deserved the banner "Troop XXX: we take bad kids." Yes, we've had a few thugs. Some of them had their own "personal adult attendants." I've been one of those at times. But we're not talking an indoor basketball league here. In our game, every boy can carry a knife or axe and every rock and stick can be an instant bludgeon or missile.

 

We're pretty clear to our boys. If you can't instantly apologize when you've heated things up, or say you need to step away so you don't heat things up, if a unit that needs to be constantly "on edge" because of you, ... well it isn't functioning the way it needs to provide the personal growth every one expects from it.

 

The nicest thing a committee can do for a kid who thinks he's above the law, sometimes, is show him the door. Everyone, even the other bullies in the bunch, NEED TO REST ASSURED THAT EXPULSION IS LIKELY if you are having trouble maintaining personal discipline.

Oh, and by way of our troop's procedure ... as of the night of the infarction this would have been out of the SM's or ASMs' hands. The CC would be contacting the mom and the committee would be explaining the terms of suspension/expulsion (possibly waiting to meet the two at the door the next meeting night). The council's director of field service would have been called in case there were any services that could be tapped for both this family and that of the kids who were harmed.

 

There have been times when things were sort of grey that the CC might ask the SM about if he was willing to work with the boy and would a warning be sufficient -- this would not have been one of those times.

[frankpalazzi]

I'm still siding with BD on this one, and our unit deserved the banner "Troop XXX: we take bad kids." Yes, we've had a few thugs. Some of them had their own "personal adult attendants." I've been one of those at times. But we're not talking an indoor basketball league here. In our game, every boy can carry a knife or axe and every rock and stick can be an instant bludgeon or missile.

 

We're pretty clear to our boys. If you can't instantly apologize when you've heated things up, or say you need to step away so you don't heat things up, if a unit that needs to be constantly "on edge" because of you, ... well it isn't functioning the way it needs to provide the personal growth every one expects from it.

 

The nicest thing a committee can do for a kid who thinks he's above the law, sometimes, is show him the door. Everyone, even the other bullies in the bunch, NEED TO REST ASSURED THAT EXPULSION IS LIKELY if you are having trouble maintaining personal discipline.

Why not just convene a Board Of Review to deal with these issues? BORs are not just for advancement! CC chairs, and the SM, SPL, PL,...whoever you like--reviews the Scout's actions and decides on possible remedies. A BOR alone may provide enough "shock factor" to remedy the problem.

[Basementdweller]

Bando' date=' it is easy in your world of suburbs, two parent house holds, and units with as many adult leaders as boys......That is not my reality. Absentee parents, neglect and three active adults run the program for 30 boys. You have read my post dealing with bed bugs, lice and boys being sent camping with us sick with the flu and strep throat, parents disappear unable to be reached for pick up during the outing, imagine that........ [/quote']

 

While I don't deny that poverty presents more/different issues, I have to tell ya that the "you can never understand" schtick is so old at this point. My troop is located in a mid- to upper-middle class suburb, most boys have two parents, none of them are hungry, half of them go to private school or specialty programs, yada yada yada

So it may surprise you to know that in the past ten years we've suspended or removed boys for drugs, knife threats, fighting, and theft. But you, like, don't live in my world, man, so I wouldn't expect you to understand that. Your jaded vision of the 'burbs where money=no problems is no more reality than some people's inability to understand your neighborhood.

Bando might live in a McMansion for all I know, but his approach to the same problem you and I have both faced is just that: His approach. It isn't simply a result of his financial situation. I don't care how much money myself or a Scout's dad have, when he lays hands on another boy (or his own mother after a meeting in one case of a defense contractor's son) he has a membership problem with me that doesn't include Bando's touchy-feely track.

So you deal with my little angel is special and my little angel would never do that......Your right I probably could not understand your issues.

 

Money and two parents would make most of the issues I deal with disappear, but I am sure it will create different ones.

 

We do not have extra adults to baby sit bullys.

 

My young man put his hands on mom, well lets just say he would regret it.

[Basementdweller]

I'm still siding with BD on this one, and our unit deserved the banner "Troop XXX: we take bad kids." Yes, we've had a few thugs. Some of them had their own "personal adult attendants." I've been one of those at times. But we're not talking an indoor basketball league here. In our game, every boy can carry a knife or axe and every rock and stick can be an instant bludgeon or missile.

 

We're pretty clear to our boys. If you can't instantly apologize when you've heated things up, or say you need to step away so you don't heat things up, if a unit that needs to be constantly "on edge" because of you, ... well it isn't functioning the way it needs to provide the personal growth every one expects from it.

 

The nicest thing a committee can do for a kid who thinks he's above the law, sometimes, is show him the door. Everyone, even the other bullies in the bunch, NEED TO REST ASSURED THAT EXPULSION IS LIKELY if you are having trouble maintaining personal discipline.

Tonight is the BOR

[qwazse]

I'm still siding with BD on this one, and our unit deserved the banner "Troop XXX: we take bad kids." Yes, we've had a few thugs. Some of them had their own "personal adult attendants." I've been one of those at times. But we're not talking an indoor basketball league here. In our game, every boy can carry a knife or axe and every rock and stick can be an instant bludgeon or missile.

 

We're pretty clear to our boys. If you can't instantly apologize when you've heated things up, or say you need to step away so you don't heat things up, if a unit that needs to be constantly "on edge" because of you, ... well it isn't functioning the way it needs to provide the personal growth every one expects from it.

 

The nicest thing a committee can do for a kid who thinks he's above the law, sometimes, is show him the door. Everyone, even the other bullies in the bunch, NEED TO REST ASSURED THAT EXPULSION IS LIKELY if you are having trouble maintaining personal discipline.

A rose by any other name, I suppose. In our troop only CC's and MC's sit on BOR's, so that's what you could call our procedure. We simply tell the boys (and parent, if needed), "You'll be taking this up with the committee."

 

SPLs and PLs handle most discipline problems just fine. They come to us when they're stymied. At that point CC might offer us an opinion and, as an ASM, I may offer to implement his suggestion, but we let the SM decide. When a BOR is needed, all of those avenues are past being spent. It's time for the boy to decide if he really wants to be a scout (i.e., not a name on a charter, but someone willing to live up to the Oath and Law). Our committee are pretty smart folk. Some have had kids who were suspended from school -- some deservedly, others not, so they are capable of compassion, where warranted. And the boys take them seriously. They have handled problems just shy of the bloody mess that BD's troop has -- and it's enabled us in the long run to retain some rough kids. But, I have no doubt in my mind that in a case like this, suspension would be the lightest offering, and council HQ will have been informed.

[Basementdweller]

Well it was ugly, I didn't enjoy it one bit. Mom just sat their eyes firmly on the scout.....he Blamed the troop leadership for not keeping him busy enough.... Put it on the line with him. read him the letters from the scout parents, he disagreed and his account was much different.....

 

His smart mouth and cocky attitude were gone.....I think sitting in a room of 7 adult eagle scouts telling you that your going down the wrong path, gave him a moment of pause.

 

Maybe this made it real. Only time will tell.