What's all this obsession over knots?

[perdidochas]

We just got some new patrol gear for our Troop. One of the items in each patrol box is now a dining fly. The first thing the SM did was cut off the "friction" ties on the guy-lines to the fly tarp... "It'll force the lads to use the taught-line hitch for its intended purpose". We are toying with the idea of ripping through one of the eyelets on each tarp as well to force the use of the sheet bend, but can't quite bring ourselves to break brand new gear.

 

I don't think knots are the end-all be-all of scouting, but kind of like first aid, if you don't use it you tend to loose it.... so look for ways to MAKE the boys use their knots in everyday camping situations. Also, if your tying a taught-line hitch in the basement of a church for a requirement, versus doing it to keep a trap up over your head to protect you from rain / heat.... I bet you pay attention and remember it better if / when your comfort demends upon it.

 

Lastly, I consider the truckers hitch to be one of the most important / useful if not the most useful knot you can know. Its certainly more important that the sheep-shank. Every time I'm behind a truckload of crap on a CA freeway on my motorcycle, I say a little prayer that the person that tied the load was a scout worth his salt. (I try to get out from behind the truck as fast as possible, as I assume most DIY movers were not scouts / scouters)

 

Dean

When we got new dining flies, I did the same thing--I removed all of the doobers (my name for the mechanical tautline hitch replacements), so the boys had to use TL hitches.

 

I was pleasantly surprised at the camporee last weekend, when the boys in my troop knew all the 6 knots in the knot relay. They lost the competition (speed), but I was happy that they knew all the knots.

 

Finally, I agree with you totally about the trucker's hitch. I canoe/kayak/windsurf and I use a modified truckers hitch to tie the bow and stern of the watercraft down. By modified truckers hitch, I mean I use an overhand loop for the knot in the body of the rope, which is semi-permanent, as I am usually tying the same watercraft on the same vehicle. I also use slipped half-hitches, because I can double up the line, and don't have as much leftover line then. The painters of my watercraft are at least as long as the watercraft are, so I have some extra line that needs to be dealt with.

[DeanRx]

On the subject of knots, which one do you prefer when tying a hammock to a tree?

first of all, I use climbing webbing, at least 1in thick, as it causes less damage to the tree. I use a timber hitch on one end, but then secure the hitch with a bowline to the standing end of the line to prevent movement / slippage... I make sure this end is wrapped at least twice around the tree trunk to help distribute weight and not cause bark damage. I do the same for the other end, but use a TL hitch so that I can adjust the hieght of the hammock. Once I have the right height, I tie a modified truckers hitch around the webbing going to the tree trunk. This will stop any slipping of the TL hitch. Both are pretty easy to undo. Only time I've had trouble is when it rained and my boy was jumping into the hammock, that caused the hitches to seize up a little bit.

[Scoutmaster Jim]

Ask the general public what Boy Scouts do or excell at. First Aid, Knots, Camping, helping old ladies across the street. Tying knots is a requirement of the first four ranks, not an elective merit badge. The square knot is the second most used symbol of scouting. It is an easily demonstrable skill in a interior setting unlike say following a compass heading.

 

To me knot tying is a fundamental skill that transcends camping and outdoors. It is a skill that is used throughout your lifetime. Please offer a single demonstrable skill that more better examplifies something Boy Scouts know and use that non-Boy Scouts probably don't know.

It's kind of funny that you pick the one knot that was removed from the 8 basic BSA knots as your example.

[resqman]

Ask the general public what Boy Scouts do or excell at. First Aid, Knots, Camping, helping old ladies across the street. Tying knots is a requirement of the first four ranks, not an elective merit badge. The square knot is the second most used symbol of scouting. It is an easily demonstrable skill in a interior setting unlike say following a compass heading.

 

To me knot tying is a fundamental skill that transcends camping and outdoors. It is a skill that is used throughout your lifetime. Please offer a single demonstrable skill that more better examplifies something Boy Scouts know and use that non-Boy Scouts probably don't know.

Tenderfoot requirement must use the EDGE method to teach someone else how to tie a Square Knot.

 

Granted there is no requirement specifically stating you must be able to tie the Square Knot, only be able to teach it to someone else. Presumably in order to teach someone how to tie the knot, you would have to be able to tie the knot yourself.

[perdidochas]

Safety, First Aid & Fun should be first and the Fluer de Lis is the main symbol *nods*

But everything scouting is knotted together somehow ^o^

Knowing how to tie the friendship knot is pretty cool.

 

Maybe we should introduce a Bondage Merit Madge for adults?

Last night, the SPL was teaching the troop some First Aid techniques (he had just gone to a Wilderness First Aid Class and is hopped up to share). The SM noted that sometimes knots/lashings are a necessary part of first aid, for example if you have to splint a broken leg and then build a litter/stretcher to carry the victim.

 

We are currently on a knot renewal program for our First Class and up boys. We are requiring they tie the knot of the day before coming into the Scout Hut. Last week was the square knot, this week was the sheet bend. I'm accepting the challenge as as ASM myself. I'm tying the knots with my eyes closed.

[danbrew]

On the subject of knots, which one do you prefer when tying a hammock to a tree?

Carabiner. lol.

[qwazse]

In case you think knots are too arcane for your budding bio-engineer….

 

[skeptic]

If we are to make a comment, can we use the right spelling please.  Naught is another word for zero, pronounced not, or knot.  Still, I suggest this is not a good reason to knot up our emotiona, as it really really a naught sum discussion.  I suppose though we might at times be naughty and make waves.  Perhaps we need to have our backsides smacked with a knotty pine paddle.

[InquisitiveScouter]

7 hours ago, skeptic said:

If we are to make a comment, can we use the right spelling please.  Naught is another word for zero, pronounced not, or knot.  Still, I suggest this is not a good reason to knot up our emotiona, as it really really a naught sum discussion.  I suppose though we might at times be naughty and make waves.  Perhaps we need to have our backsides smacked with a knotty pine paddle.

What is the optimum speed in knots for that smack from a nautical implement? 😜 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

Just read through this thread, and I'm surprised no one brought up the other (to me) obvious example - boating, especially sailboating. Maybe it's because I'm from a country whose name in a whole slew of languages means "the rowers", but I associate knots with boats and ships. You're not going to Velcro your boat to a pier or your sails.  Only if you're in a very small personal craft with no sail that you pull up onto land when you arrive won't you need any knots.

I got myself one of those reminder/practice cards for knots at the gift shop of the Vasa Museum (museum containing entire original warship from the 1600s) last summer. My troop wasn't a sea scout ship (although it was in my dad's time), we still had sailboats and used them. Knowing knots is, in that way, also a link to our past, at least for me.

I would think that the long history of knots in scouting alone should make it similar for other old scouts too, even if they aren't from a place where boating is prominent. Change is inevitable, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't select some old ways to teach the next generation like others have already alluded to.

[SSScout]

 

[SSScout]

We had a Scout Table at the County Fair this year.  It was in partnership with the local college science center, in the "KIDS ZONE". This is because (as often happens)  no one else in the Scout county thought to  work to have a Scout presence at the fair, other than the Troop that was assisting (to good effect) the car parking.... Maybe next year...

Still, we were there, and accosted many kids about Cub Scouting (we had a PWD track and,,, ) KNOT TYING. 

Demo'd some chain knots, a multi overhand knot trick and taught them some simple knots (overhand, figure eight, square and BOW , for your shoes.... See above..."NOT") And gave them a souvenir  ROPE ... Some exhibitors gave you a sticker, or a pen, we gave them a PIECE OF REAL ROPE>>>>

Know The Ropes , CSDC 
KiS MiF....     
"Okay, Cubs, here are your ropes...  Notice the different colored ends.  These are the best, Peruvian Bi-colored, double ended ropes we could get. They were picked from the jungle plantations at the PEAK of maturity.  Now remember ---   when you go to the store to buy some rope, NEVER , NEVER buy single ended rope. ALWAYS insist on rope with two ends ! ! Trust me, single ended rope is inherently defective , and will cause you nothing but trouble !  ALWAYS buy double ended rope !!   If you go to Home Depot or Lowes to buy some rope, make them open the package and SHOW YOU both ends !!  "  
....about this time, your Cubs will be smiling and tilting their heads and looking at you sideways (?? Wha....??) and you will have them.   
***Before the "class" (never call it a class, reeks of school. Session,  Skilltime,  Rigging, something , anything else), You have cut sash cord (Preverably cotton, ¼”) into 4 to 5 foot lengths and dipped the ends in glue or shellac or wrapped them in duct tape to prevent the unraveling.  You have then layed the ropes on your driveway and LIGHTLY spray painted about half of  one end a contrasting color (one end red, one plain). This allows a better way to SEE how the knots tie. And you have produced enough so that each Cub may take home his "Peruvian Practice Rope".  Then  go on to tell them the "Jargon".... 
""Right.  Now, the men that use ropes all the time , sailors, riggers, crane operators,  steel erectors,  use a LANGUAGE, a JARGON, and we will learn that language.  Here (hold up the rope), this is a rope or LINE. the part that doesn't do much in the knot tying  (throw this over your shoulder)  is the "STANDING PART" say that ( they say it) What?   (they say it LOUDER) . Good.  The end that moves around, runs around (throw the rest of rope around alittle), is the "RUNNING END"  (""running end""). Good ! If I make a U  shape, that's a BIGHT, (they all say bight). If I cross the Running End   .... over the Standing Part, that's a" LOOP" . Now, as YOU are looking at it, if the Running Part goes OVER the Standing part, that's an OVER LOOP. and if the Running End goes UNDER the Standing Part, that's an....   Right ! Under Loop, you kids are  good... " 

Go on to teach the Overhand Knot, Figure Eight Knot,  Square/Reef  Knot, Bowline, , Two half Hitches, etc.   Use the Jargon.  Give them the pride of ownership and "inside dope".  Use your Boy Scout Assistants . HANDS ON, ,,, if you have to,  stand behind the Cub and manipulate their hands, DO IT.  Teach your Scout Assistants to do this.  GET INVOLVED.  
"Great!   Any of you Cubs know who Isaac Newton is?   (some of the older ones may) Do you know his Three Laws of Motion?   (Here you can repeat them , simply, for review. Look'em up). 
But did you know...  When he sent them off to his publisher, there were FOUR Laws of Motion ! Yep, Seems that somebody spilled coffee on them and wiped out the fourth law,  umm umm.  We have recently discovered what that Fourth Law is... (throw your Big Rope out to a Cub to hold on) You Can't Push A Rope.  (push on it )  Ropes are ONLY good in Tension (pull on it.  Play with this for awhile. )"   
When the CSDC Director says "of course they learned these eight knots...."   You can, with authority tell her/him,  no, in my 50 minute  session, They learned these four knots.... Learned and learned their use.  The Den Walkers  (Adults !)  learned them too !   Insist on their participation !  Don't EVER let the escorts just sit there.... MiF KiS.    
"MR. SSSCOUT, MR. SSSCOUT ! !   (here the Cub holds up a tangle of rope) What knot is this?"  "What's your  name, Scout?"  "Johnny Smith !"  "Well, that's a Johnny Smith knot !"  
If it is a "class", if the Cubs HAVE to go thru it, if it's a CHORE,,,,  do you really think they'll remember it?   And if YOU, the Scouter, aren’t having fun doing this, how do you think the Cubs will react?       MiF KiS MiF..... 

And remember,   reinforce the idea these are SCOUTS,  CUBS,  BOYS, GIRLS (!)….. avoid at all cost the “G” word…  not ‘guys’, please…      Call them by their REAL name….  SCOUT,  CUB…. 
See you on the trail…….

 

 

[Armymutt]

I suppose it's only a coincidence that the two people in my vet school class who had no problem mastering surgical knots and large knots used in controlling farm animals were also Eagle Scouts.  While the rest of the class was doing the bowline step-by-step for the 5th iteration, we were challenging each other in a sort of knot version of HORSE.

[SSScout]

In my short time at the County Fair, I was able to teach  the 4H "Prince", a teen ager, how to tie a SUCCESSFUL bow knot for his shoes....

Curse you, Count Vel....