New Scout is a Jehovah's Witness

[walk in the woods]

I could try to come up with a better example but it would be difficult to beat this one....to demonstrate the mess we get into when people and organizations try to poke their noses into the private beliefs (or worse, try to control the beliefs) of others.

 

If the CO for the unit I serve wants to exercise some kind of control over the beliefs of the scouts in this unit, they are free to knock themselves out trying. But it's not in my job description. If BSA wants to continue to wallow in this quagmire, they are free to do that as well but there's nothing that says I have to do the wallowing for them. It's THEIR mess of THEIR making and they can lie in it. If a boy or a leader fills out an application and signs it and if the CO has no objection, I'm sending it up the line. And if the council and BSA want to create controversy and strife by enforcing their 'rules', I'll be glad to step aside and let them take the heat. It's not part of my job to question the beliefs of others and act as an 'enforcer' for BSA.

idk Pack. It seems like the issue here is folks trying to so liberally interpret the requirements as to make them meaningless. And, when somebody questions then to scream about how they are being discriminated against.

 

The BSA is a patriotic organization by definition, saying the pledge is part of the deal. We have an oath and law, they are part of the deal from the methods all the way up to the mission. Life is full of choices, if you choose to be a practicing JW (or atheist) then you by definition choose not to be a Boy Scout. Not because a JW or athiest couldn't master scoutcraft but because the belief systems and requirements are mutually exclusive. That's ok. I'm a Christian, I don't demand that a Mosque or Temple change their message to accommodate my faith. Same deal.

 

The mess that the BSA is getting into is the trying to be everything to everybody mess. This thread highlights much of the mushy mindset driving us down the path. Don't want to say the pledge, that's fine, just say that you are reciting the words, you don't have to believe. In another thread there was a discussion about whether faith in your parents to make good decisions was good enough to meet a faith requirement. As the Scottish guy on SNL used to say, it's crrrrrraaaaaap!

 

If the BSA wants to be everything to everybody they need to rip the bandage off and make that call. I'm sure TLUSA would appreciate the influx of members. Problem is the BSA doesn't have the courage to stand behind their convictions in either direction.

[BadenP]

As others have pointed out the Jehovah Witnesses FORBID their members from joining boy scouts period. Allowing him to continue will result in him being asked to leave his faith tradition so you are playing fast and loose with his and his families religious beliefs and status in their tradition. Unless the parents tell you they are leaving the JW's you allowing this to continue is playing with fire and is totally irresponsible.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I could try to come up with a better example but it would be difficult to beat this one....to demonstrate the mess we get into when people and organizations try to poke their noses into the private beliefs (or worse, try to control the beliefs) of others.

 

If the CO for the unit I serve wants to exercise some kind of control over the beliefs of the scouts in this unit, they are free to knock themselves out trying. But it's not in my job description. If BSA wants to continue to wallow in this quagmire, they are free to do that as well but there's nothing that says I have to do the wallowing for them. It's THEIR mess of THEIR making and they can lie in it. If a boy or a leader fills out an application and signs it and if the CO has no objection, I'm sending it up the line. And if the council and BSA want to create controversy and strife by enforcing their 'rules', I'll be glad to step aside and let them take the heat. It's not part of my job to question the beliefs of others and act as an 'enforcer' for BSA.

If the BSA wants to be everything to everybody they need to rip the bandage off and make that call.

 

Seems like they shouldn't have said scouting is for "all boys" for decades, then.

[NJCubScouter]

I could try to come up with a better example but it would be difficult to beat this one....to demonstrate the mess we get into when people and organizations try to poke their noses into the private beliefs (or worse, try to control the beliefs) of others.

 

If the CO for the unit I serve wants to exercise some kind of control over the beliefs of the scouts in this unit, they are free to knock themselves out trying. But it's not in my job description. If BSA wants to continue to wallow in this quagmire, they are free to do that as well but there's nothing that says I have to do the wallowing for them. It's THEIR mess of THEIR making and they can lie in it. If a boy or a leader fills out an application and signs it and if the CO has no objection, I'm sending it up the line. And if the council and BSA want to create controversy and strife by enforcing their 'rules', I'll be glad to step aside and let them take the heat. It's not part of my job to question the beliefs of others and act as an 'enforcer' for BSA.

If BSA wants to continue to wallow in this quagmire' date=' they are free to do that as well but there's nothing that says I have to do the wallowing for them. It's THEIR mess of THEIR making and they can lie in it. If a boy or a leader fills out an application and signs it and if the CO has no objection, I'm sending it up the line. And if the council and BSA want to create controversy and strife by enforcing their 'rules', I'll be glad to step aside and let them take the heat. It's not part of my job to question the beliefs of others and act as an 'enforcer' for BSA.[/quote']

 

As you know, Pack, I generally agree with you on this, but isn't this a slightly different situation? The situation in this thread did not result from anyone inquiring into a Scout's religious beliefs. The young man was presented with a specific joining requirement, #4, "Repeat the Pledge of Allegiance." His response was (something like) "I can't do that, it's forbidden by my religion". (And we don't know what happened when he got to requirement # 7, "Understand and agree to live by the Scout Oath or Promise, Scout Law, motto, and slogan, and the Outdoor Code." Maybe that hasn't happened yet. And maybe he and/or his parents will say that it is ok to promise to live by a set of words, as long as you aren't taking them as an "oath". And maybe Merlyn is correct that there is a way for the boy to say the words of the Pledge of Allegiance without violating his religious obligation not to take a pledge. But I am doubtful that the boy and/or his parents would see it that way, if his immediate response to "Recite the Pledge of Allegiance" is "I can't do that".

 

So what do you do? You have a boy who says he cannot fulfill one or more joining requirements. Not some amorphous thing like "Believe in this" or "Don't be that", but an actual printed joining requirement that's in the book. (Not to mention that in the case of reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, it's something the rest of the troop is probably going to be doing every single week while he is a Scout. Our troop recites the Oath as part of every flag ceremony as well.)

 

You could just send the application up the line, but I really think the right question here is, what kind of conversations need to take place even before the parents sign the application.

[NJCubScouter]

As others have pointed out the Jehovah Witnesses FORBID their members from joining boy scouts period. Allowing him to continue will result in him being asked to leave his faith tradition so you are playing fast and loose with his and his families religious beliefs and status in their tradition. Unless the parents tell you they are leaving the JW's you allowing this to continue is playing with fire and is totally irresponsible.

As others have pointed out the Jehovah Witnesses FORBID their members from joining boy scouts period. Allowing him to continue will result in him being asked to leave his faith tradition...

 

I don't think we know that with absolute certainty, or at least I don't. I am not a Jehovah's Witness nor am I an expert on that religion. Going by what is on the Internet can often lead us down the wrong road, and in this case most of what people are looking at on the Internet seems to be written by ex-Jehovah's Witnesses. Has anyone found a direct statement like that on the web site of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization itself?

[frankpalazzi]

As others have pointed out the Jehovah Witnesses FORBID their members from joining boy scouts period. Allowing him to continue will result in him being asked to leave his faith tradition so you are playing fast and loose with his and his families religious beliefs and status in their tradition. Unless the parents tell you they are leaving the JW's you allowing this to continue is playing with fire and is totally irresponsible.

This is the parents' responsibility, not the Troop's. They are the ones who must sign and approve the Youth Application. What goes on outside the unit (unless it's a YP matter) is none of the unit's concern.

[packsaddle]

I could try to come up with a better example but it would be difficult to beat this one....to demonstrate the mess we get into when people and organizations try to poke their noses into the private beliefs (or worse, try to control the beliefs) of others.

 

If the CO for the unit I serve wants to exercise some kind of control over the beliefs of the scouts in this unit, they are free to knock themselves out trying. But it's not in my job description. If BSA wants to continue to wallow in this quagmire, they are free to do that as well but there's nothing that says I have to do the wallowing for them. It's THEIR mess of THEIR making and they can lie in it. If a boy or a leader fills out an application and signs it and if the CO has no objection, I'm sending it up the line. And if the council and BSA want to create controversy and strife by enforcing their 'rules', I'll be glad to step aside and let them take the heat. It's not part of my job to question the beliefs of others and act as an 'enforcer' for BSA.

NJ, if it were me and the parents objected to 'The Pledge' on religious reasons, I'd defer to them and just shrug it off. I wouldn't say anything to them about it. If I were in their position I would consider it 'presumptive' on my part.

Edit: I'll note that if I DID feel the need to say something to them, I'd also feel that need on behalf of Buddhist scouts who also do not say the pledge because of the 1954 'under God' addition. BSA seems just fine with those boys. Heck they are Atheists! and BSA is fine with it.

 

As for 'The Pledge' being part of 'patriotism'....I'd rather rely on what a person 'does' than what he 'says'. I guess there weren't any patriots before 1892 when it was composed. This all seems so superficial and hollow. It hardly indicates anything about 'character' as far as I can tell, I've heard the pledge given by plenty of people who have openly advocated the overthrow of the government and similar nonsense. Mindlessly reciting the pledge is, well, mindless. I'd say there is far more character in standing up for one's principles in the face of opposition. Like I said, I'd shrug and then get on with scouting. Let someone else be the 'pledge police'.

[packsaddle]

As others have pointed out the Jehovah Witnesses FORBID their members from joining boy scouts period. Allowing him to continue will result in him being asked to leave his faith tradition so you are playing fast and loose with his and his families religious beliefs and status in their tradition. Unless the parents tell you they are leaving the JW's you allowing this to continue is playing with fire and is totally irresponsible.

'...playing with fire...'

 

I disagree. We have no idea what decision-making process they engaged in to make this decision and really, it's not for us to 'second guess' what some third party might or might not do. If this boy and his family made a choice, then so be it. It isn't my job to restrict their choice just because I 'think' something might happen. They probably know these things far better than I do. I'd respect their choice and let them bear the consequences if there are any. That's the nature of personal initiative and personal responsibility.

[jpstodwftexas]

I will say this...I was an Atheist as a Kid...I never believed in God. However I decided to Join Boy Scouts. I was raised Patriot. I was raised saying the Pledge of Allegiance Daily in School.

I knew and Understood that I would be required to say "phrases" every meeting that mentioned God. I quickly learned I could be both an atheist and a Scout by following those rules.

I knew that " My Duty to God" was different from everyone else, I knew I could be Reverent by following the rules of Respecting the Religions beliefs of others. I was never grilled over religious Views.

 

Every Scout Event to this Day.. I have said and will continue to say Loud and Proud

"On my honor, I will do my best

To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;

To help other people at all times;

To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight."

A Scout is:Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

 

I pledge Allegiance to the flag

of the United States of America

and to the Republic for which it stands,

one nation under God, indivisible,

with Liberty and Justice for all.

 

I choose to be a Member of the Boy Scouts of America and to follow its Rules not stand my idly while all the other "real" members followed the Rules. I was not Forced by anyone.

While a youth I never Missed a Scout Sunday, sitting Reverently in the Back of Grant street Methodist Church..in a Clean Full Scout Uniform nor did it Kill Me to proudly present the Colors anywhere. I also participated in the Easter Pageant in the Wichita Mountains at the Holy City many Years. I Participated in Parades

It Never killed me to Do a Good Turn Daily and It still don't. A while Back I simply return stray shopping cart to the buggy area instead of leaving them rolling around the spaces because people were to lazy to walk a few feet. Participating in scouting is Doing So in all Events.. Not standing By watching others

 

And I am DAMN PROUD TO SAY I AM AN EAGLE SCOUT and A BETTER ADULT BECAUSE OF IT.

 

My Only regret in Life was missing out for very poor reason on Scouting as an Adult from 1986 - 2011. In the Military I had No choice, and many jobs have kept me on the road or unavailable to attend events.

 

I believe in GOD I still have a Problem with CHURCHES

[King Ding Dong]

I will say this...I was an Atheist as a Kid...I never believed in God. However I decided to Join Boy Scouts. I was raised Patriot. I was raised saying the Pledge of Allegiance Daily in School.

I knew and Understood that I would be required to say "phrases" every meeting that mentioned God. I quickly learned I could be both an atheist and a Scout by following those rules.

I knew that " My Duty to God" was different from everyone else, I knew I could be Reverent by following the rules of Respecting the Religions beliefs of others. I was never grilled over religious Views.

 

Every Scout Event to this Day.. I have said and will continue to say Loud and Proud

"On my honor, I will do my best

To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;

To help other people at all times;

To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight."

A Scout is:Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

 

I pledge Allegiance to the flag

of the United States of America

and to the Republic for which it stands,

one nation under God, indivisible,

with Liberty and Justice for all.

 

I choose to be a Member of the Boy Scouts of America and to follow its Rules not stand my idly while all the other "real" members followed the Rules. I was not Forced by anyone.

While a youth I never Missed a Scout Sunday, sitting Reverently in the Back of Grant street Methodist Church..in a Clean Full Scout Uniform nor did it Kill Me to proudly present the Colors anywhere. I also participated in the Easter Pageant in the Wichita Mountains at the Holy City many Years. I Participated in Parades

It Never killed me to Do a Good Turn Daily and It still don't. A while Back I simply return stray shopping cart to the buggy area instead of leaving them rolling around the spaces because people were to lazy to walk a few feet. Participating in scouting is Doing So in all Events.. Not standing By watching others

 

And I am DAMN PROUD TO SAY I AM AN EAGLE SCOUT and A BETTER ADULT BECAUSE OF IT.

 

My Only regret in Life was missing out for very poor reason on Scouting as an Adult from 1986 - 2011. In the Military I had No choice, and many jobs have kept me on the road or unavailable to attend events.

 

I believe in GOD I still have a Problem with CHURCHES

Jp, you have a lot of great things to say. Are you having fun with learning text editing ? The big fonts are starting to sound like shouting.

 

BTW, I don't have problems with churches, I have a problem with CLERGY.

[NeverAnEagle]

Wouldn't the Boy Scouts encourage a tepid JW to become more devoted to his religion?

Absolutely not! As you can see from some the post here he's not a "real christian" so he shouldn't be welcomed in to the troop period. (Sarcasm intended)

 

Of if we do accept him he should be forced to reject his beliefs and do as all the others do because it makes the "good Christians" feel uncomfortable to know that there are others out there with differing beliefs who might possibly want to be treated with respect. (gasp!)

[NeverAnEagle]

I could try to come up with a better example but it would be difficult to beat this one....to demonstrate the mess we get into when people and organizations try to poke their noses into the private beliefs (or worse, try to control the beliefs) of others.

 

If the CO for the unit I serve wants to exercise some kind of control over the beliefs of the scouts in this unit, they are free to knock themselves out trying. But it's not in my job description. If BSA wants to continue to wallow in this quagmire, they are free to do that as well but there's nothing that says I have to do the wallowing for them. It's THEIR mess of THEIR making and they can lie in it. If a boy or a leader fills out an application and signs it and if the CO has no objection, I'm sending it up the line. And if the council and BSA want to create controversy and strife by enforcing their 'rules', I'll be glad to step aside and let them take the heat. It's not part of my job to question the beliefs of others and act as an 'enforcer' for BSA.

"It's not part of my job to question the beliefs of others and act as an 'enforcer' for BSA."

 

But would you act as an advocate for the child?

BSA has a long history of not following rules, or applying them inappropriately. We do a disservice to the boys when we allow BSA to run rough-shod over their beliefs.

[walk in the woods]

I could try to come up with a better example but it would be difficult to beat this one....to demonstrate the mess we get into when people and organizations try to poke their noses into the private beliefs (or worse, try to control the beliefs) of others.

 

If the CO for the unit I serve wants to exercise some kind of control over the beliefs of the scouts in this unit, they are free to knock themselves out trying. But it's not in my job description. If BSA wants to continue to wallow in this quagmire, they are free to do that as well but there's nothing that says I have to do the wallowing for them. It's THEIR mess of THEIR making and they can lie in it. If a boy or a leader fills out an application and signs it and if the CO has no objection, I'm sending it up the line. And if the council and BSA want to create controversy and strife by enforcing their 'rules', I'll be glad to step aside and let them take the heat. It's not part of my job to question the beliefs of others and act as an 'enforcer' for BSA.

Pack, I'm curious to know how far you'd take the "shrug it off" approach and get on with scouting. If a scout refused to light a camp fire because he believed the gathering of firewood disturbed the natural environment, stole nutrients from the forest floor, promoted unsustainable forestry practices and contributed to global warming, would you allow him to skip that requirement for second class? If a scout came to you and said he was a Satanist and therefore refused to contribute to service projects because the ingrates didn't deserve his service would you give him a pass on service hours? Extreme examples maybe but the same principle.

[jpstodwftexas]

Somethings need Shouting.. but Yes I am having Fun with the Editors. Joining Scouts is About Participating in Scouts. Not Participating Is Kinda Like sitting at Home saying your Part of Football Team because You don't wan't to get sweaty.

[packsaddle]

I could try to come up with a better example but it would be difficult to beat this one....to demonstrate the mess we get into when people and organizations try to poke their noses into the private beliefs (or worse, try to control the beliefs) of others.

 

If the CO for the unit I serve wants to exercise some kind of control over the beliefs of the scouts in this unit, they are free to knock themselves out trying. But it's not in my job description. If BSA wants to continue to wallow in this quagmire, they are free to do that as well but there's nothing that says I have to do the wallowing for them. It's THEIR mess of THEIR making and they can lie in it. If a boy or a leader fills out an application and signs it and if the CO has no objection, I'm sending it up the line. And if the council and BSA want to create controversy and strife by enforcing their 'rules', I'll be glad to step aside and let them take the heat. It's not part of my job to question the beliefs of others and act as an 'enforcer' for BSA.

dcsimmons, I don't know how I would react to those cockamamie situations. Both of them are about advancement, not membership. Anyway, if I confront one of them I'll let you know. But the situation in this thread is real and has happened. In some sense I've already confronted it, just not with a Jehovah's Witness. To me the question is who has responsibility for 'policing' the membership policy. With respect to matters of beliefs, I am neither interested nor competent to judge others. No place in the training or in those 'rules' does it mandate that I 'police' the faith of scouts or their families. They either sign the application or they don't. The CO can decide to reject them for whatever reason they want and so can BSA. But all I do is make sure they put the needed information on the application and sign it. If they don't sign I don't send it up the line. If they do, I do.

 

 

 

Really, is this THAT complicated? We've been wringing our hands in this thread when all that was needed was to let the professionals demonstrate the genius of their vision and make that membership decision. After the application leaves the CO, it's really up to them anyway. And after reading this thread, it's obvious that WE are not up to making that decision. So let our intellectual and moral masters at the council, whose clarity of thought is incomprehensible to the rest of us, make that decision. It actually IS in their job responsibilities.