Camping / Sleeping Arrangements / Safe Scouting

[comchair]

Hi everyone...hope you can help me. I have a situation where I have a parent of a Webelos scout wants to bring his live-in girlfriend to an upcoming Webelos campout and the three of them sleep in the same tent. Safe scouting says "parent or guardian" must sleep in the tent with the scout....doesn't address others however. There have been some concerns brought to me who have heard about this. I have my own opinion, but am soliciting some advice from others that might have experienced this. They are all great people and don't ever believe anything would happen. Both the scouts parents have a good relationship and the girlfriend is accepted by the scout well. On the other hand, she isn't a legal guardian and are we risking our insurance or charter by allowing this with our knowledge. Any advice is welcome.

 

[Hueymungus]

Nope...this isn't family camping. Also, Dad has a Girlfriend not a Step-Mother not a legal guardian. Besides, females sleep elsewhere in seperate campsites/areas. A Webelos Campout is for the Boys to experince Scouting on their own with their buddies and create a team building atmosphere. If Mom came along, then she would have to sleep elsewhere anyway.

 

On a sidenote; I would require all non-registered adults take YPT and provide the certificate.

[Nike]

The only people who need to be on a Webelos campout are the Webs and their den leaders. Webs (Wolves and Bears too) are perfectly able to sleep in a tent on their own with some adults across the way.

 

Quite honestly, I'm not going to be asking for the marital status of couples co-parenting kids. If Uncle Bob or Aunt Sue or Cousin Pat is the only one available to bring Cub Scout Johnny for the weekend, I'd smile, collect their YPT certificate and health form, then see if they preferred to supervise dinner prep, camp fire prep, or breakfast prep.

[moosetracker]

Females can sleep in the same area as males.. Hueymungus is wrong on that, perhaps it's a policy of his pack/troop.. If you had only a mother as a legal guardian she is fine sleeping with her child, IN THE SAME AREA as the rest of the Webelos..

 

But.. unmarried couples can not sleep in the same tent during any scouting event, period.. And - only legal guardians can sleep with a youth, period.. So you have two issues that would get you in trouble.. I know these are BSA rules, but I could not tell you were the rule is in writing. This is the closest I came.. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/...GSS/gss01.aspx

go down to the section titled "Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings" look at # 8... Also look at # 11..

 

#8 ,, Male and female leaders must have separate sleeping facilities. Married couples may share the same quarters if appropriate facilities are available.

 

#11,,When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult other than his or her parent or guardian.

 

I have never heard the G2SS stating "parent or guardian MUST sleep in the tent with the scout.. just the one in #11.. So there is no problem with 2 or 3 scouts sleeping in one tent, but then unless they are all brothers, NO parents can sleep in the same tent, because although they are guardian to one of the boys, they are not guardian to all of the boys.. But even if the scout was in another tent with other scouts.. Still boyfriend/girlfriend could not tent together.. Yes it says leaders.. But even if neither are registered scouters, any adult on the campout is an adult leader.. This rule apply to anyone on the campout.. So father/son in one tent and girlfriend in a seprate tent.. Or scout in with other youth, but father/girlfriend still in individual tents themselves.. updated this, because I forgot to mention that if someone other then a parent/guardian comes on the trip to be a scouts adult representation.. That is fine, but they would not be able to sleep in the same tent.. So if an uncle came camping in place of the parents, he maybe is the temporary guardian for the weekend, but he is not legally the permanent guardian, so they tent separately.

 

But the women can be in the same campsite, seriously their cooties will wash off.

 

Thems the rules...

[King Ding Dong]

The only people who need to be on a Webelos campout are the Webs and their den leaders. Webs (Wolves and Bears too) are perfectly able to sleep in a tent on their own with some adults across the way.

 

Quite honestly, I'm not going to be asking for the marital status of couples co-parenting kids. If Uncle Bob or Aunt Sue or Cousin Pat is the only one available to bring Cub Scout Johnny for the weekend, I'd smile, collect their YPT certificate and health form, then see if they preferred to supervise dinner prep, camp fire prep, or breakfast prep.

I know some wolves, bears and webs that are not perfectly able to sleep in a tent on their own. Not unless they are told there is a bear in the area and they better keep quiet.

[King Ding Dong]

Females can sleep in the same area as males.. Hueymungus is wrong on that, perhaps it's a policy of his pack/troop.. If you had only a mother as a legal guardian she is fine sleeping with her child, IN THE SAME AREA as the rest of the Webelos..

 

But.. unmarried couples can not sleep in the same tent during any scouting event, period.. And - only legal guardians can sleep with a youth, period.. So you have two issues that would get you in trouble.. I know these are BSA rules, but I could not tell you were the rule is in writing. This is the closest I came.. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/...GSS/gss01.aspx

go down to the section titled "Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings" look at # 8... Also look at # 11..

 

#8 ,, Male and female leaders must have separate sleeping facilities. Married couples may share the same quarters if appropriate facilities are available.

 

#11,,When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult other than his or her parent or guardian.

 

I have never heard the G2SS stating "parent or guardian MUST sleep in the tent with the scout.. just the one in #11.. So there is no problem with 2 or 3 scouts sleeping in one tent, but then unless they are all brothers, NO parents can sleep in the same tent, because although they are guardian to one of the boys, they are not guardian to all of the boys.. But even if the scout was in another tent with other scouts.. Still boyfriend/girlfriend could not tent together.. Yes it says leaders.. But even if neither are registered scouters, any adult on the campout is an adult leader.. This rule apply to anyone on the campout.. So father/son in one tent and girlfriend in a seprate tent.. Or scout in with other youth, but father/girlfriend still in individual tents themselves.. updated this, because I forgot to mention that if someone other then a parent/guardian comes on the trip to be a scouts adult representation.. That is fine, but they would not be able to sleep in the same tent.. So if an uncle came camping in place of the parents, he maybe is the temporary guardian for the weekend, but he is not legally the permanent guardian, so they tent separately.

 

But the women can be in the same campsite, seriously their cooties will wash off.

 

Thems the rules...

My Council has or had a rule that married couples could not sleep in the same tent. I have never found it in writing and have been told it is no longer in force, but some district level scouters still believe it exists. Obviously there was a incident once upon a time and someone had to make a rule about it.

[kari_cardi]

Though not likely the situation in the original post,I'd like to point out that two people do not need to be married to be parents, guardians, or parent and guardian to the same child. Since BSA doesn't ask for information about all the adults in a scout's life or require proof of marriage, neither do I.

 

A question for the rule sticklers, do you require step-parents to sleep in a separate tent from their spouse and their step-son?

[King Ding Dong]

Though not likely the situation in the original post,I'd like to point out that two people do not need to be married to be parents, guardians, or parent and guardian to the same child. Since BSA doesn't ask for information about all the adults in a scout's life or require proof of marriage, neither do I.

 

A question for the rule sticklers, do you require step-parents to sleep in a separate tent from their spouse and their step-son?

And with changing marriage laws state by state, and the issue of states recognizing marriages from other states, this gets real complicated. Moose knows there are rules but can't find them....I wonder why.

[Austinole]

I would have a tent designated for Webelos only and let the kids all tent together. They are supposed to pitch a tent and sleep in it. Let the Webelos have their own tent and tell the adults it's part of outdoorsman.

 

With your parent or guardian, take part in a Webelos den overnight campout or a family campout. Sleep in a tent that you have helped pitch.

[moosetracker]

Females can sleep in the same area as males.. Hueymungus is wrong on that, perhaps it's a policy of his pack/troop.. If you had only a mother as a legal guardian she is fine sleeping with her child, IN THE SAME AREA as the rest of the Webelos..

 

But.. unmarried couples can not sleep in the same tent during any scouting event, period.. And - only legal guardians can sleep with a youth, period.. So you have two issues that would get you in trouble.. I know these are BSA rules, but I could not tell you were the rule is in writing. This is the closest I came.. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/...GSS/gss01.aspx

go down to the section titled "Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings" look at # 8... Also look at # 11..

 

#8 ,, Male and female leaders must have separate sleeping facilities. Married couples may share the same quarters if appropriate facilities are available.

 

#11,,When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult other than his or her parent or guardian.

 

I have never heard the G2SS stating "parent or guardian MUST sleep in the tent with the scout.. just the one in #11.. So there is no problem with 2 or 3 scouts sleeping in one tent, but then unless they are all brothers, NO parents can sleep in the same tent, because although they are guardian to one of the boys, they are not guardian to all of the boys.. But even if the scout was in another tent with other scouts.. Still boyfriend/girlfriend could not tent together.. Yes it says leaders.. But even if neither are registered scouters, any adult on the campout is an adult leader.. This rule apply to anyone on the campout.. So father/son in one tent and girlfriend in a seprate tent.. Or scout in with other youth, but father/girlfriend still in individual tents themselves.. updated this, because I forgot to mention that if someone other then a parent/guardian comes on the trip to be a scouts adult representation.. That is fine, but they would not be able to sleep in the same tent.. So if an uncle came camping in place of the parents, he maybe is the temporary guardian for the weekend, but he is not legally the permanent guardian, so they tent separately.

 

But the women can be in the same campsite, seriously their cooties will wash off.

 

Thems the rules...

I'm not that much of a rule stickler.. If married I would not require a proof that the step parent has a legal guardian.. But if not married, they adulls would be in seprate tents, if different sexes (probably if unmarried homosexuals too.), even if both guardians.. Scout would have to choose where to sleep.

[Nike]

The only people who need to be on a Webelos campout are the Webs and their den leaders. Webs (Wolves and Bears too) are perfectly able to sleep in a tent on their own with some adults across the way.

 

Quite honestly, I'm not going to be asking for the marital status of couples co-parenting kids. If Uncle Bob or Aunt Sue or Cousin Pat is the only one available to bring Cub Scout Johnny for the weekend, I'd smile, collect their YPT certificate and health form, then see if they preferred to supervise dinner prep, camp fire prep, or breakfast prep.

So maybe "sleep" isn't the right verb. How about "remain contained?"

[Beavah]

Yah, comchair, welcome to da forums, eh!

 

Yeh are raisin' one of those issues that falls in da grey zone in terms of modern life and families. Do yeh stick to the rules that envision an intact, two-parent family even though there's really no issue of youth safety, or do yeh act with understanding and compassion toward those whose lives aren't as perfect as some busybodies would prefer? Which is best for the scout? For all the scouts?

 

I think yeh have to ask your Chartered Organization for its views, since you work for them and have a duty to represent their values on the matter. If your chartered organization is a church, they may feel that the man-with-girlfriend is not the sort of example they want in their youth program. Or it might be quite the opposite, and they feel that the role of their youth programs in da church is to bring families and kids together. The difference between man-with-girlfriend and man-with-fiancee might well be that ring in his pocket that's comin' along on the campout. Askin' your chartered organization and followin' their lead also helps disarm the busy-bodies yeh have in the pack.

 

Anyway, be alert that this is a minefield. It's one of those things that gets adults to misbehave on both sides and leaves a lot of hurt feelings unless handled with compassion and firmness, and a touch of creativity.

[Pack18Alex]

Good luck. You're violating BSA rules with this one. If you are family camping, then non-leaders may attend. If you are Webelos Den Camping, then non-leaders shouldn't be there. Now with BSA eliminating the Scout Parent designation, it's a little more complicated.

 

However, I would see if someone can draft you a temporary (48 hour guardianship agreement). Designate the girlfriend as a temporary guardian of the Scout (signed by BOTH parents) for the time and duration of the campout, limited to the proximity of the campsite. If the kid is rushed to the hospital, the girlfriend has no authority, but this will result in the Scout not being in the tent of a non-guardian. I would also collect an Adult Application from her, register her as a 91U Reserve Scouter, and require Youth Protection from her -- this is what we do for parents that for various reasons can't register as Adult Leaders.

 

In terms of the non-married leaders tenting together, explain to them in person the policy, send a notice/reminder out to the Unit. It may be with a wink and a nod, but your responsibility is to the boy, NOT them. Your BSA obligations are to keep him from tenting with a non-guardian. In terms of the couple tenting together, the policy is no, they will break the policy, and there will be no consequences to it. If something goes wrong and bad things happen on the Camp Out, BSA will kick them out as SP / Reserve Scouter for violating the policy, but since you didn't break Youth Protection, you're likely safe.

 

I mean, we normally assume that the parents that live together with the Scouts are married, but I've NEVER asked for a marriage certificate. For all I know they had a religious wedding (AKA a Church Wedding), but I've never asked for a marriage certificate.

[Stosh]

BSA is an organization based on - a scout is morally straight. In today's society, moral norms vary from one person to another, but as a scout leader, my moral compass always read, when in doubt, don't do it if one wishes to lead by example.

 

The only time I had a parent accompany each Webelos boy on an outing was when I took them canoeing on a lake to get to a primitive campsite. It really was no different than each parent driving their boy to the activity, except it was a canoe instead of a car. Otherwise, all Webelos activities were sans parents, except for one parent to provide 2-deep.

 

I find that the more one gets away from the program, the more considerations one has to try and make exceptions for.

 

Have I taken my girlfriend on a scout outing? Yep. I was doing whitewater canoeing/kayaking and needed a seasoned watercraft expert on the trip with me. She was well qualified for that position and yes, she had her own tent.

 

Stosh

[King Ding Dong]

BSA is an organization based on - a scout is morally straight. In today's society, moral norms vary from one person to another, but as a scout leader, my moral compass always read, when in doubt, don't do it if one wishes to lead by example.

 

The only time I had a parent accompany each Webelos boy on an outing was when I took them canoeing on a lake to get to a primitive campsite. It really was no different than each parent driving their boy to the activity, except it was a canoe instead of a car. Otherwise, all Webelos activities were sans parents, except for one parent to provide 2-deep.

 

I find that the more one gets away from the program, the more considerations one has to try and make exceptions for.

 

Have I taken my girlfriend on a scout outing? Yep. I was doing whitewater canoeing/kayaking and needed a seasoned watercraft expert on the trip with me. She was well qualified for that position and yes, she had her own tent.

 

Stosh

This is that fuzzy rule from GTSS that indicates, at least to me, that the BSA prefers parents or guardians with Webelos.

 

"A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. Joint Webelos den/troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips."