LDS?????

[packsaddle]

Yeah, well, LDS is kind of a ... OK , not really a mixed bag. A lot of Mormons are personally decent folk. But the entire community/church/political/court-room thing can get rather weird. And through a gay friend or two I've been picking up on some extra Mormon weirdness with regards to homosexuality within the community, but I'm not qualified to speak on that except to say that there is something going on there.

 

For normal district-level stuff, there can be a lot of frustration felt by non-Mormons. There are district-level Camporalls planned and executed, but all the Mormon units pull out on Saturday night in order to be in church Sunday morning, thus also pulling out of the Sunday activities. Basically, the Mormons and the non-Mormons end up running their own separate and practically independent programs. Within any group/organization, you want to be able to work with everybody, but at the same time the Mormons keep themselves separate from the rest.

 

Another element is the political/judicial. The Mormon Church has selected Boy Scouts, Inc, as its male youth program. As such, every Mormon boy is required to participate in BSA Scouting. Whether a boy actually participates or not, the Mormon Church enrolls him in BSA's Scouting programs up until he reaches the age of 18. Regardless. But wait, we haven't gotten to the weird part yet. The Mormon Church programs every single boy to "Eagle out" by age 14. Every Mormon boy's actual involvement with Scouting is programmed to end at age 14, and yet the Mormon Church continues to enroll and pay for every single Mormon male until he reaches the age of 18. So what are those boys doing between 14 and 18? Mormon sports programs!

 

Now for the judicial angle. In the religious discrimination lawsuits of the early 1990's, a recurring and staple position of the BSA lawyers arguing in the various courts was that BSA really didn't want to discriminate against these other religious groups (eg, atheists), but they were being extorted by the Mormon Church. If BSA were to allow even a single atheist to join Scouting, then the Mormon Church would withdraw all its support, which would be economically devastating to BSA, Inc. Of course, the BSA lawyers were never known to ever be consistent as they also argued that BSA was a secret religious organization and had been from the start, BSA had never ever been a secret religious organization even from the start, etc. Basically, whatever outright lie the BSA lawyers could tell whenever it suited them.

 

So basically, the Mormon units seem to be running their own program separate from everybody else, which causes friction with non-Mormons.

 

 

A Mormon afterthought, if I may. Back circa 1986, a male co-worker had married a Mormon woman and had hence married into the church. One day he came in to work and was complaining loudly and bitterly of what had just been done to him. He had just been drafted as Cubmaster. As he loudly proclaimed to everybody at work, "I have two daughters! I have no sons!". Basically, the Church tells you what your job will be and that is it. Here is the non-Mormons' take on that. Yes, all the positions do get filled, but what kind of service is rendered? Mormon "volunteers" render as much service as they are required to render, and no more. Think of the volunteer's line, "What is the least that I can do? And I do mean the very least." Mormon "volunteers" do the absolute minimum that is required of them and not one bit more (obvious individual exceptions duly noted). Non-Mormon volunteers are not required to fill a position and so they normally will put out that 110% and more (I will digress on that later) and will do so cheerfully instead of begrudgingly. In my years at District Roundtable representing my sons' troop, that dichotomy between Church-required service and actual service came up again and again. There is a definite difference between meeting a required commitment, which would be the Mormon model, and actually volunteering our time, which would be the non-Mormon model.

 

"110%". When I was a kid, I couldn't understand that, since there could not possibly be more than 100% of anything.

 

As a retired Chief Petty Officer with 35 years of service, I understand it fully. When you give 100%, what really are you giving? You do everything that is required of you.That is what giving 100% is, doing everything that is required of you. In school, do you know what grade that would give you? A "C". So another word for "100%" would be "mediocre." How then can you excel? By giving more than is required of you. By giving more than 100% Like giving 110%.

 

That is the meaning of "giving 110%". And that is what I taught my Webelos.

 

Hu Rah!

One of my favorites of all time: http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=45895#axzz2ffrAcQWE

 

 

 

"To those of you who received honors, awards, and distinctions, I say, well done. And to the C students I say, you, too, can be President of the United States."

 

G.W. Bush's priceless commencement address to Yale

[DWise1_AOL]

Yeah, well, LDS is kind of a ... OK , not really a mixed bag. A lot of Mormons are personally decent folk. But the entire community/church/political/court-room thing can get rather weird. And through a gay friend or two I've been picking up on some extra Mormon weirdness with regards to homosexuality within the community, but I'm not qualified to speak on that except to say that there is something going on there.

 

For normal district-level stuff, there can be a lot of frustration felt by non-Mormons. There are district-level Camporalls planned and executed, but all the Mormon units pull out on Saturday night in order to be in church Sunday morning, thus also pulling out of the Sunday activities. Basically, the Mormons and the non-Mormons end up running their own separate and practically independent programs. Within any group/organization, you want to be able to work with everybody, but at the same time the Mormons keep themselves separate from the rest.

 

Another element is the political/judicial. The Mormon Church has selected Boy Scouts, Inc, as its male youth program. As such, every Mormon boy is required to participate in BSA Scouting. Whether a boy actually participates or not, the Mormon Church enrolls him in BSA's Scouting programs up until he reaches the age of 18. Regardless. But wait, we haven't gotten to the weird part yet. The Mormon Church programs every single boy to "Eagle out" by age 14. Every Mormon boy's actual involvement with Scouting is programmed to end at age 14, and yet the Mormon Church continues to enroll and pay for every single Mormon male until he reaches the age of 18. So what are those boys doing between 14 and 18? Mormon sports programs!

 

Now for the judicial angle. In the religious discrimination lawsuits of the early 1990's, a recurring and staple position of the BSA lawyers arguing in the various courts was that BSA really didn't want to discriminate against these other religious groups (eg, atheists), but they were being extorted by the Mormon Church. If BSA were to allow even a single atheist to join Scouting, then the Mormon Church would withdraw all its support, which would be economically devastating to BSA, Inc. Of course, the BSA lawyers were never known to ever be consistent as they also argued that BSA was a secret religious organization and had been from the start, BSA had never ever been a secret religious organization even from the start, etc. Basically, whatever outright lie the BSA lawyers could tell whenever it suited them.

 

So basically, the Mormon units seem to be running their own program separate from everybody else, which causes friction with non-Mormons.

 

 

A Mormon afterthought, if I may. Back circa 1986, a male co-worker had married a Mormon woman and had hence married into the church. One day he came in to work and was complaining loudly and bitterly of what had just been done to him. He had just been drafted as Cubmaster. As he loudly proclaimed to everybody at work, "I have two daughters! I have no sons!". Basically, the Church tells you what your job will be and that is it. Here is the non-Mormons' take on that. Yes, all the positions do get filled, but what kind of service is rendered? Mormon "volunteers" render as much service as they are required to render, and no more. Think of the volunteer's line, "What is the least that I can do? And I do mean the very least." Mormon "volunteers" do the absolute minimum that is required of them and not one bit more (obvious individual exceptions duly noted). Non-Mormon volunteers are not required to fill a position and so they normally will put out that 110% and more (I will digress on that later) and will do so cheerfully instead of begrudgingly. In my years at District Roundtable representing my sons' troop, that dichotomy between Church-required service and actual service came up again and again. There is a definite difference between meeting a required commitment, which would be the Mormon model, and actually volunteering our time, which would be the non-Mormon model.

 

"110%". When I was a kid, I couldn't understand that, since there could not possibly be more than 100% of anything.

 

As a retired Chief Petty Officer with 35 years of service, I understand it fully. When you give 100%, what really are you giving? You do everything that is required of you.That is what giving 100% is, doing everything that is required of you. In school, do you know what grade that would give you? A "C". So another word for "100%" would be "mediocre." How then can you excel? By giving more than is required of you. By giving more than 100% Like giving 110%.

 

That is the meaning of "giving 110%". And that is what I taught my Webelos.

 

Hu Rah!

Yes, the mediocre students can indeed become exceptional late-bloomers[/i]. Everybody has the potential to exceed his/her past performance.

 

But what about now? Isn't that what we are talking about, now?

 

The unexceptional can become President of the United States with the right daddy and party backing? Yeah, OK, so what?

 

You don't have a rich and powerful daddy with a legacy? You just want to keep your job?

 

If you just want to keep your job, then 70% is not enough, but then it never has been enough.

 

If you just want to keep your job, then 100% is not enough. It used to be enough, but not more.

 

 

Here is the military model from which we derive the teaching of "110%".

 

A fundamental value that we inculcate from the beginning in basic training is submission to the standards. There are minimal standards that we must all maintain at all times. Maintaining those minimal standards is called "discipline". While the popular misconception is that one's sergeant or petty officer is constantly standing over you and yelling at you to do everything, that is false. OK, at first they have to stand over you and tell you everything you need to do, but that phase is quickly passed, or else you will be processed out of the service. The entire purpose of discipline is that you will internalize all the rules and doing the required things becomes an integral part of you; more than 35 years later, I still fold my underwear and t-shirts to a 6-inch width. The point is that I do not need anybody to be standing over my shoulder yelling at me to fold my underwear that way.

 

OK, so we have a force of "robots" all doing everything the specified way. But that is not what's actually happening. We all know the standards and we work to meet those standards. But the day-to-day is not what is expected to happen. Situations arise for which there does not yet exist any protocol.

 

Every year, everybody's "eval" (though for officers it's a fitrep, a "fitness report") comes due. A running "joke" is to refer to somebody's unexpected action as an "initiative bullet", an annotation on their eval/fitrep of some kind of initiative that they had taken, an entry that will result in his being considered for becoming a chief petty officer. Even though we require adherence to the standards, we still depend on the ones who take the initiative.

 

In the military, those who maintain 100% are only maintaining the standard, doing the minimal that is required of them. Those are our administrators, our paper-pushers.

 

In the military, those who push ahead to put in 110% will become our leaders.

[King Ding Dong]

Yeah, well, LDS is kind of a ... OK , not really a mixed bag. A lot of Mormons are personally decent folk. But the entire community/church/political/court-room thing can get rather weird. And through a gay friend or two I've been picking up on some extra Mormon weirdness with regards to homosexuality within the community, but I'm not qualified to speak on that except to say that there is something going on there.

 

For normal district-level stuff, there can be a lot of frustration felt by non-Mormons. There are district-level Camporalls planned and executed, but all the Mormon units pull out on Saturday night in order to be in church Sunday morning, thus also pulling out of the Sunday activities. Basically, the Mormons and the non-Mormons end up running their own separate and practically independent programs. Within any group/organization, you want to be able to work with everybody, but at the same time the Mormons keep themselves separate from the rest.

 

Another element is the political/judicial. The Mormon Church has selected Boy Scouts, Inc, as its male youth program. As such, every Mormon boy is required to participate in BSA Scouting. Whether a boy actually participates or not, the Mormon Church enrolls him in BSA's Scouting programs up until he reaches the age of 18. Regardless. But wait, we haven't gotten to the weird part yet. The Mormon Church programs every single boy to "Eagle out" by age 14. Every Mormon boy's actual involvement with Scouting is programmed to end at age 14, and yet the Mormon Church continues to enroll and pay for every single Mormon male until he reaches the age of 18. So what are those boys doing between 14 and 18? Mormon sports programs!

 

Now for the judicial angle. In the religious discrimination lawsuits of the early 1990's, a recurring and staple position of the BSA lawyers arguing in the various courts was that BSA really didn't want to discriminate against these other religious groups (eg, atheists), but they were being extorted by the Mormon Church. If BSA were to allow even a single atheist to join Scouting, then the Mormon Church would withdraw all its support, which would be economically devastating to BSA, Inc. Of course, the BSA lawyers were never known to ever be consistent as they also argued that BSA was a secret religious organization and had been from the start, BSA had never ever been a secret religious organization even from the start, etc. Basically, whatever outright lie the BSA lawyers could tell whenever it suited them.

 

So basically, the Mormon units seem to be running their own program separate from everybody else, which causes friction with non-Mormons.

 

 

A Mormon afterthought, if I may. Back circa 1986, a male co-worker had married a Mormon woman and had hence married into the church. One day he came in to work and was complaining loudly and bitterly of what had just been done to him. He had just been drafted as Cubmaster. As he loudly proclaimed to everybody at work, "I have two daughters! I have no sons!". Basically, the Church tells you what your job will be and that is it. Here is the non-Mormons' take on that. Yes, all the positions do get filled, but what kind of service is rendered? Mormon "volunteers" render as much service as they are required to render, and no more. Think of the volunteer's line, "What is the least that I can do? And I do mean the very least." Mormon "volunteers" do the absolute minimum that is required of them and not one bit more (obvious individual exceptions duly noted). Non-Mormon volunteers are not required to fill a position and so they normally will put out that 110% and more (I will digress on that later) and will do so cheerfully instead of begrudgingly. In my years at District Roundtable representing my sons' troop, that dichotomy between Church-required service and actual service came up again and again. There is a definite difference between meeting a required commitment, which would be the Mormon model, and actually volunteering our time, which would be the non-Mormon model.

 

"110%". When I was a kid, I couldn't understand that, since there could not possibly be more than 100% of anything.

 

As a retired Chief Petty Officer with 35 years of service, I understand it fully. When you give 100%, what really are you giving? You do everything that is required of you.That is what giving 100% is, doing everything that is required of you. In school, do you know what grade that would give you? A "C". So another word for "100%" would be "mediocre." How then can you excel? By giving more than is required of you. By giving more than 100% Like giving 110%.

 

That is the meaning of "giving 110%". And that is what I taught my Webelos.

 

Hu Rah!

What job can you be wrong over 30% of the time? Meteorologist.

 

In my opinion I would also add physician. They get paid wrong or right. Don't see many unemployed doctors.

[DWise1_AOL]

Yeah, well, LDS is kind of a ... OK , not really a mixed bag. A lot of Mormons are personally decent folk. But the entire community/church/political/court-room thing can get rather weird. And through a gay friend or two I've been picking up on some extra Mormon weirdness with regards to homosexuality within the community, but I'm not qualified to speak on that except to say that there is something going on there.

 

For normal district-level stuff, there can be a lot of frustration felt by non-Mormons. There are district-level Camporalls planned and executed, but all the Mormon units pull out on Saturday night in order to be in church Sunday morning, thus also pulling out of the Sunday activities. Basically, the Mormons and the non-Mormons end up running their own separate and practically independent programs. Within any group/organization, you want to be able to work with everybody, but at the same time the Mormons keep themselves separate from the rest.

 

Another element is the political/judicial. The Mormon Church has selected Boy Scouts, Inc, as its male youth program. As such, every Mormon boy is required to participate in BSA Scouting. Whether a boy actually participates or not, the Mormon Church enrolls him in BSA's Scouting programs up until he reaches the age of 18. Regardless. But wait, we haven't gotten to the weird part yet. The Mormon Church programs every single boy to "Eagle out" by age 14. Every Mormon boy's actual involvement with Scouting is programmed to end at age 14, and yet the Mormon Church continues to enroll and pay for every single Mormon male until he reaches the age of 18. So what are those boys doing between 14 and 18? Mormon sports programs!

 

Now for the judicial angle. In the religious discrimination lawsuits of the early 1990's, a recurring and staple position of the BSA lawyers arguing in the various courts was that BSA really didn't want to discriminate against these other religious groups (eg, atheists), but they were being extorted by the Mormon Church. If BSA were to allow even a single atheist to join Scouting, then the Mormon Church would withdraw all its support, which would be economically devastating to BSA, Inc. Of course, the BSA lawyers were never known to ever be consistent as they also argued that BSA was a secret religious organization and had been from the start, BSA had never ever been a secret religious organization even from the start, etc. Basically, whatever outright lie the BSA lawyers could tell whenever it suited them.

 

So basically, the Mormon units seem to be running their own program separate from everybody else, which causes friction with non-Mormons.

 

 

A Mormon afterthought, if I may. Back circa 1986, a male co-worker had married a Mormon woman and had hence married into the church. One day he came in to work and was complaining loudly and bitterly of what had just been done to him. He had just been drafted as Cubmaster. As he loudly proclaimed to everybody at work, "I have two daughters! I have no sons!". Basically, the Church tells you what your job will be and that is it. Here is the non-Mormons' take on that. Yes, all the positions do get filled, but what kind of service is rendered? Mormon "volunteers" render as much service as they are required to render, and no more. Think of the volunteer's line, "What is the least that I can do? And I do mean the very least." Mormon "volunteers" do the absolute minimum that is required of them and not one bit more (obvious individual exceptions duly noted). Non-Mormon volunteers are not required to fill a position and so they normally will put out that 110% and more (I will digress on that later) and will do so cheerfully instead of begrudgingly. In my years at District Roundtable representing my sons' troop, that dichotomy between Church-required service and actual service came up again and again. There is a definite difference between meeting a required commitment, which would be the Mormon model, and actually volunteering our time, which would be the non-Mormon model.

 

"110%". When I was a kid, I couldn't understand that, since there could not possibly be more than 100% of anything.

 

As a retired Chief Petty Officer with 35 years of service, I understand it fully. When you give 100%, what really are you giving? You do everything that is required of you.That is what giving 100% is, doing everything that is required of you. In school, do you know what grade that would give you? A "C". So another word for "100%" would be "mediocre." How then can you excel? By giving more than is required of you. By giving more than 100% Like giving 110%.

 

That is the meaning of "giving 110%". And that is what I taught my Webelos.

 

Hu Rah!

KBB, ever see Steve Martin's movie, "L.A. Story"? Loved that movie! He was a TV weatherman. The weather reports for Los Angeles were always the same, so he took a day off and just reran an old "sonny" forecast when in reality a major storm hit that sank the station owner's boat.

 

KBB, have you ever had to troubleshoot a PC? You look at the symptoms and you try to figure out what's wrong. If you're right, then you're a hero, but if you're wrong then what the ?, we just have to replace a computer.

 

Have you ever troubleshot a person? You look at the symptoms and you try to figure out what's wrong. If you're right, then you're a hero, but if you're wrong then what the ?, you just killed somebody.

 

Same thing, isn't that? Kill a computer, kill a person. And yet, somehow it seems to feel kind of different, wouldn't you agree?

 

I remember one commedian/commedienne who was talking about terminal diseases. That person was wanting to see what his physician's actual grades were in his own personal condition. OK, you did OK overall, but how especially did you do with prostate cancer? Or with breast cancer (a very particular concern of mine since a very dear friend of mine has it)?

 

My very dear friend has breast cancer, dammit! I do not want her care to go to some fracking idiot who only got a 70% grade on breast cancer! I want her to be treated by the people who got over 100%!!!! [remark removed by moderator because of 'F' word]

 

In the real world, 100% does not cut it one least bit!

[Pack18Alex]

Man y'all would hate my unit. Won't come to an event on Saturday, have to camp over from Friday. We bring our own food, religious services Saturday morning, can't do Scout's own... Campsite construction stops cold 18 minutes before sundown... Yes my district works with us to include us instead of using our differences to excuse bigotry.

[SR540Beaver]

I have no beef with the LDS as part of the BSA. Here locally, there are not that many Mormon churches and the units are very small. In fact, some have consolidated in order to have a viable unit. They do not participate in district or council events or the OA. I can't really speak to training, but I suspect they don't participate much in that either. Part of the issue I believe is that many of the registered leaders in an LDS unit are not volunteers, but voluntold by their bishop that they were selected for the job. That being said, I do know a few LDS scouters in my council who have a true love for scouting. One in particular has staffed a couple of WB courses, runs our IOLS program and has staffed at least the last 3 Jambos.....and he doesn't even have Boy Scout aged children yet. Another LDS scouter I know went as one of our ASM's to Jambo this year. But for the most part, I've never laid eyes on most of our LDS scouters.

 

 

 

 

A side note and persnoal observation. Many....not all.....but many of the instances we've seen in national news where a youth has died on an outing or became lost, come from LDS units. I personally believe that the reason for this is again because the adults are voluntold to take their position and that they do not willingly participate in available training or in district and council opportunities where they can network and discuss topics with other scouters.

 

[moosetracker]

Pack18Alex.. None of that would get many complaints from any of the scouters who have voice frustration for LDS.. First off you come to events, Big plus.. Second if these are the rules of your unit, and you are not forcing all other units to have a Saturday religious service or stop Campsite construction 18 minutes b4 sundown, then your fine.. (question - what happens to the scout who doesn't have a pitched tent, does he sleep out in the rain?) You didn't state anything about the commitment of your unit leaders, or if they get trained and put on a good program allowing a good boy-led program.. Which isn't a grumble due to religion, because Eagle Mills and troops with no direction are equally complained about regardless of your religious views.. That is just people loving the program and not wanting boys to go through it bored out of their minds and counting of their checklist of how much more is left to do before they can get Eagle and get out of this tedious requirement forced on them by a parent or a church..

 

If you have certain religious policy, I don't believe anyone would disrespect you for it, as long as you were not forcing everyone to follow your religious policies.. I think since LDS has softened up on it's insistence that homosexuals not be allowed into BSA and it is more the conservative evangelicals and Catholics I haven't seen too many spout off about LDS on that front..

 

I also agree with SR54Beaver, there are times when the Church assigns someone who WANTS to be an adult leader in BSA, or came to the assignment wanting to learn it and do it right and it did grow into something they enjoyed.. Those people I have know, do give 110 to 200 percent to the program, and they run fantastic troops.

[Pack18Alex]

Knew a bunch of Mormons back in school... absolutely fantastic people... as are the ones I do business with. The religion seems kooky because its SO modern... talking burning bush seems reasonable as a childhood story, move it from ancient Egypt to upstate New York and it becomes kooky. Don't have much of an opinion on LDS and Scouting, just an opinion that LDS turns out men and women of merit.

 

Judaism does not consider same sex ATTRACTION as sinful, only the ACT itself (though the act being sinful is rejected by Reform Judaism, the most numerous branch). And the Jewish Committee on Scouting was extremely open about lobbying for the membership change. The efforts in our district to include us more are resulting in the program shifting on account of us... A big chunk of that is my personal involvement at the district level (something that nobody tried before in my unit).

 

There are plenty of observant Jewish Units that will not participate on a campout over Shabbat (Friday at sundown until Saturday at nightfall). My unit is dedicated to Shabbat camping, but that's a function of who founded it and the culture founded with it. I find the bashing of LDS because they won't camp over their Sabbath to be a bit distasteful and bigoted. I'm sure the people that are comfortable bashing the LDS Units for obeying the tenets of their religious would be equally intolerant of my Unit of Christ-killers anyway.

 

Moosetracker, I'm at the pack level, it's families putting up tents. I'm not happy with the families that decide to show up late and pitch a tent after Shabbat started, but I'm not sure if we want to ban them from future campouts... I suppose I could send them home or make them sleep outside, but at the Pack level its hard to do much. At the troop level, I'd hope that the boy that didn't have his tent up had friends that will let him crash for the night... I mean, starting too late on your tent isn't exactly being prepared, is it? My observant families wouldn't dream of setting up late, most of my families are respectful and show up on time and put their tents up.

[DWise1_AOL]

Yeah, well, LDS is kind of a ... OK , not really a mixed bag. A lot of Mormons are personally decent folk. But the entire community/church/political/court-room thing can get rather weird. And through a gay friend or two I've been picking up on some extra Mormon weirdness with regards to homosexuality within the community, but I'm not qualified to speak on that except to say that there is something going on there.

 

For normal district-level stuff, there can be a lot of frustration felt by non-Mormons. There are district-level Camporalls planned and executed, but all the Mormon units pull out on Saturday night in order to be in church Sunday morning, thus also pulling out of the Sunday activities. Basically, the Mormons and the non-Mormons end up running their own separate and practically independent programs. Within any group/organization, you want to be able to work with everybody, but at the same time the Mormons keep themselves separate from the rest.

 

Another element is the political/judicial. The Mormon Church has selected Boy Scouts, Inc, as its male youth program. As such, every Mormon boy is required to participate in BSA Scouting. Whether a boy actually participates or not, the Mormon Church enrolls him in BSA's Scouting programs up until he reaches the age of 18. Regardless. But wait, we haven't gotten to the weird part yet. The Mormon Church programs every single boy to "Eagle out" by age 14. Every Mormon boy's actual involvement with Scouting is programmed to end at age 14, and yet the Mormon Church continues to enroll and pay for every single Mormon male until he reaches the age of 18. So what are those boys doing between 14 and 18? Mormon sports programs!

 

Now for the judicial angle. In the religious discrimination lawsuits of the early 1990's, a recurring and staple position of the BSA lawyers arguing in the various courts was that BSA really didn't want to discriminate against these other religious groups (eg, atheists), but they were being extorted by the Mormon Church. If BSA were to allow even a single atheist to join Scouting, then the Mormon Church would withdraw all its support, which would be economically devastating to BSA, Inc. Of course, the BSA lawyers were never known to ever be consistent as they also argued that BSA was a secret religious organization and had been from the start, BSA had never ever been a secret religious organization even from the start, etc. Basically, whatever outright lie the BSA lawyers could tell whenever it suited them.

 

So basically, the Mormon units seem to be running their own program separate from everybody else, which causes friction with non-Mormons.

 

 

A Mormon afterthought, if I may. Back circa 1986, a male co-worker had married a Mormon woman and had hence married into the church. One day he came in to work and was complaining loudly and bitterly of what had just been done to him. He had just been drafted as Cubmaster. As he loudly proclaimed to everybody at work, "I have two daughters! I have no sons!". Basically, the Church tells you what your job will be and that is it. Here is the non-Mormons' take on that. Yes, all the positions do get filled, but what kind of service is rendered? Mormon "volunteers" render as much service as they are required to render, and no more. Think of the volunteer's line, "What is the least that I can do? And I do mean the very least." Mormon "volunteers" do the absolute minimum that is required of them and not one bit more (obvious individual exceptions duly noted). Non-Mormon volunteers are not required to fill a position and so they normally will put out that 110% and more (I will digress on that later) and will do so cheerfully instead of begrudgingly. In my years at District Roundtable representing my sons' troop, that dichotomy between Church-required service and actual service came up again and again. There is a definite difference between meeting a required commitment, which would be the Mormon model, and actually volunteering our time, which would be the non-Mormon model.

 

"110%". When I was a kid, I couldn't understand that, since there could not possibly be more than 100% of anything.

 

As a retired Chief Petty Officer with 35 years of service, I understand it fully. When you give 100%, what really are you giving? You do everything that is required of you.That is what giving 100% is, doing everything that is required of you. In school, do you know what grade that would give you? A "C". So another word for "100%" would be "mediocre." How then can you excel? By giving more than is required of you. By giving more than 100% Like giving 110%.

 

That is the meaning of "giving 110%". And that is what I taught my Webelos.

 

Hu Rah!

packsaddle: Sorry about that. She means a lot to me.

 

KDD, a friend in my two-step class tonight offered a real-world case. She's an office manager who had lost her long-time job over a year ago when the viable company she worked for closed down because the banks refused them a business loan. For more than a year she tried to find work but, being too old and unable to accept a ridiculously low salary she had no luck. During the past year, she has used up almost all of her savings just to be able to survive. Her boyfriend has an advanced degree in mathematics with practical engineering experience. He has also been out of work for a long time, being too old and "too qualified." At least he had planned ahead for retirement (he did the math, don'cha know?) and considers himself as having retired early. Tonight, she referenced a study that says that almost everybody over a certain age (mid-50's, I think) who lost their job will never be able to get another job.

 

She beat that statistic, having gotten a job a few months ago. She replaced a much younger worker who got fired for being 100%. They just simply could not afford to keep that 100%-er. She showed up all the time and did everything that she was told to do. And nothing more than that. She would perform every task she was told to perform and then when she was done with that she would sit there and check her on-line status. She gave 100% and clearly that was not enough. She lacked initiative.

 

My friend gives 110%. She shows initiative. When she has completed a task, she looks for what needs to be done and then she does it. That is what 110% is about. That is why it is so important.

 

Here is another example. I used to be married. I am a computer professional (software engineer) and my wife was a non-computer person. In fact, the main thing that motivated her to learn more was when her equally non-tech mother started doing email, though she really came up to speed during the year that she worked on her master's in education. Her first exposure to a word processor was when I installed a DOS version of WordPerfect at home. She needed to use it for school, but she refused to learn it. We both had learned touch-typing in school and on a typewriter you had to format as you went; while I had broken free of that paradigm, she was still locked into it which caused problems. Since she refused to learn anything about using the computer, her "solution" was for me to stand over her shoulder and tell her every key combination to press. That was unacceptable, so I suggested that she type everything in and I could then come back and format it, but she refused that idea because she was still trapped within the typewriter paradigm of having to format your document as you type it. It did not end well. When I later installed a Windows version of Word and didn't tell anybody about it, the very next day I came home from work and found our older son (maybe about 10 years old) using it. So she started paying him by the page to do her word processing for her. Clever little genius that he was, he used the largest font possible in order to run up the number of pages. They straightened all that out between each other, but with her master's degree she learned to do the work herself.

 

The point to all that is my ex-wife's attitude at that time. She didn't want to take any initiative to actually learn what to do, but rather she wanted me to stand over her shoulder to tell her everything to do. Does that sound at all familiar? Doesn't that sound like the mind-set of a 100%-er? "Tell me everything to do. Stand over my shoulder and tell me every move to make." That is what it is like to have a 100%-er work for you. You have to organize and present and supervise every single task for your subordinates. So while you are busy micro-managing every single thing that all your subordinates do, when are you ever able to do your own job? I have been trained in Marxism. We were trained in Marxism by the United States Air Force in our first resident NCO leadership school. A central idea in Marxism was that it was the workers who created the actual production while the managers were parasites feeding off of the workers' production. But what that ignores is that it is the work of the managers that enables the workers to do their work. Of course, I benefited from having worked for my father, a general contractor and Seabee Chief Petty Officer (unfortunately, he had died a year before I made chief myself). When I started working for him, his first imperative was to let me know that he had done everything that he was telling me to do and that he was willing and able to still do it himself if necessary. The main point being that by having me do the dirty work, that freed him to do the job of securing the work for us to do and of providing everything that I needed to do the job that I was doing. Management is not a pack of parasites feeding off the sweat of the workers. Management is what provides the work for the workers and enables them to to that work.

 

So then, management has a lot more important things to do than to stand over every worker and micro-manage them. Any 100%-er who keeps them from doing their job is a liability. Any less-than-100%-er, such as a 70%-er, is a far greater liability. What company can afford to carry such a liability?

 

We all need to be 110%-ers just to survive. Unless our father or father-in-law runs the company.

[moosetracker]

I guess some people have stated frustration with them packing up Saturday night. This does seem small minded.. With most of our District camporees nothing happens on Sunday anyway.. Eat breakfast, pack up your gear and leave. All the activities fall on Saturday (except a recent one that had the activities in the dark, so events started at 9 or 10pm and the event didn't end until about 2am on Sunday morning.)

 

As for people bemoaning LDS not finding ways to socialize outside of their own group.. It might not be the right way to say "Hey we want the pleasure of your company".. But, sometimes after people ask and ask and try to accommodate to make the LDS community feel welcomed, they themselves feel LDS is being the one who is snubbing them, and it just starts turns into complaining about the whole thing.

 

I myself tried to run IOLS trainings that did not run over Sunday in order to accommodate the LDS people.. But, after advertising and promoting and personally calling a representative of each LDS group to let them know about the trainings that were LDS friendly, then having a total of 0 LDS people show up for it, while the other participant number also was small due to it taking two separate weekends instead of one.. It was scrubbed, and we don't do it anymore. This year our summer camp added the IOLS training to their summer camp program for adult training.. Hopefully they can get that training there.

 

I wasn't hinting that they be banned from future campouts or anything.. Just curious how unbendable this rule was, and if totally unbendable then what did you do.. I just know that the best laid plans in camping rarely turn out and no matter how hard you try to plan to have daylight to set camp, it seems 9 out of 10 times to not work out.. Maybe other units don't have the religious rulings around not setting up in the dark, but they try not to anyway simply because doing so is a royal PITA..

[Pack18Alex]

It's not an option. Jewish law prohibits establishing a new structure during the Sabbath. So the tent needs to be up before Shabbat starts. Can't cook on the Sabbath, food has to be cooked before hand (or started just before and left to cook overnight, which is how our lunch is made. We have the gear to do it, and the plans on how to do it. The Jewish Committee is planning adult training to take place during our Kinnus (Jewish Campout, Hebrew for gathering), so we can get people trained during Sunday (and some training that is more discussion based can take place on Saturday).

 

The rule is pretty unbendable in Jewish law. So you have to get the sites up. It also meant we couldn't repair guy lines that kids tripped on, so we got docked points at camporee, oh well.

[Nike]

It's not an option. Jewish law prohibits establishing a new structure during the Sabbath. So the tent needs to be up before Shabbat starts. Can't cook on the Sabbath, food has to be cooked before hand (or started just before and left to cook overnight, which is how our lunch is made. We have the gear to do it, and the plans on how to do it. The Jewish Committee is planning adult training to take place during our Kinnus (Jewish Campout, Hebrew for gathering), so we can get people trained during Sunday (and some training that is more discussion based can take place on Saturday).

 

The rule is pretty unbendable in Jewish law. So you have to get the sites up. It also meant we couldn't repair guy lines that kids tripped on, so we got docked points at camporee, oh well.

Other than labour, like cooking and dealing with the guy lines, is there anything else y'all can't do on Saturday? Do you ever have to not participate in some activities or competitions at camporees? Asking purely out of curiosity

[Pack18Alex]

It's not an option. Jewish law prohibits establishing a new structure during the Sabbath. So the tent needs to be up before Shabbat starts. Can't cook on the Sabbath, food has to be cooked before hand (or started just before and left to cook overnight, which is how our lunch is made. We have the gear to do it, and the plans on how to do it. The Jewish Committee is planning adult training to take place during our Kinnus (Jewish Campout, Hebrew for gathering), so we can get people trained during Sunday (and some training that is more discussion based can take place on Saturday).

 

The rule is pretty unbendable in Jewish law. So you have to get the sites up. It also meant we couldn't repair guy lines that kids tripped on, so we got docked points at camporee, oh well.

Yes... At the Troop level, competitions are often problematic. Knot tying is a problem, lashing is a problem, etc. Things like BB Guns/Archery I left to each parent to decide. There were a few shops and stuff at the big Camporee that we couldn't go to. Cuboree had an adult Iron Chef competition last time, I love cooking and would have been in.

 

I need to fix any registration problems on Saturday night, or I've verbally dictated them (can't write).

 

Council Functions are in some ways, easier than when we do our Unit camping. Certain things we can't do, certain things we can't derive benefit from (but at a Camporee, where the purpose is primarily for gentiles, it's easier to gain indirect help).

 

A bunch of things are complicated... but technology is helping a LOT. We can't turn on/off lights, but with the new battery operated LEDs, we can have small lanterns in our kitchen area. We can't water plants, so we can't dump our wash water out, so we dump it all in a trash can to remove after Saturday night.

 

The real bummer, we can't take pictures of all the fun stuff going on. Now that I've made friends with other Scouters in the area, they'll help us out there. Generally, if the prep work is done by us before Shabbat, or is done by gentiles primarily for gentiles, we can participate. We're planning an early Sunday morning fishing time for our Pack Campout so we can do that. We normally do some nature hikes and sports on our Campouts. I actually don't know what the troop does.

[King Ding Dong]

It's not an option. Jewish law prohibits establishing a new structure during the Sabbath. So the tent needs to be up before Shabbat starts. Can't cook on the Sabbath, food has to be cooked before hand (or started just before and left to cook overnight, which is how our lunch is made. We have the gear to do it, and the plans on how to do it. The Jewish Committee is planning adult training to take place during our Kinnus (Jewish Campout, Hebrew for gathering), so we can get people trained during Sunday (and some training that is more discussion based can take place on Saturday).

 

The rule is pretty unbendable in Jewish law. So you have to get the sites up. It also meant we couldn't repair guy lines that kids tripped on, so we got docked points at camporee, oh well.

Interesting. I suppose the IDF doesn't lay down its arms on Shabbat.

 

Can you flush a toilet ? That water and waste goes somewhere into the environment. What about medical devices such as a CPAP ? Are there work exceptions for instance a doctor or you work at a power plant ?

 

In some ways it truly does make it a day of rest.

[Pack18Alex]

It's not an option. Jewish law prohibits establishing a new structure during the Sabbath. So the tent needs to be up before Shabbat starts. Can't cook on the Sabbath, food has to be cooked before hand (or started just before and left to cook overnight, which is how our lunch is made. We have the gear to do it, and the plans on how to do it. The Jewish Committee is planning adult training to take place during our Kinnus (Jewish Campout, Hebrew for gathering), so we can get people trained during Sunday (and some training that is more discussion based can take place on Saturday).

 

The rule is pretty unbendable in Jewish law. So you have to get the sites up. It also meant we couldn't repair guy lines that kids tripped on, so we got docked points at camporee, oh well.

KDD, caveat, I'm happy to try to explain things from a lay perspective, but I'm NOT a Rabbi, if you have questions regarding Jewish law, you should consult your local Orthodox Jewish Rabbi. That said, from a practical how we live side...

 

In general, actions prohibited on Shabbat are permitted for the purpose of saving lives. The IDF does NOT lay down arms, though different Rabbis will justify it for different reasons (saving the lives of your comrades, serving in a Jewish army as per written Torah, etc). In practice, the defense of the Jewish state requires violating Sabbath prohibitions. However, there is extensive work in Israel with a group that develops Shabbat-friendly devices... basically designed that they don't violate a Biblical prohibition but merely Rabbinic prohibition (you can't break either, but the leniencies are more common for Rabbinic restrictions). There is a "Sabbath pen" for example, which has "temporary ink" that lasts about 25-30 hours, so that people in critical but non direct life saving roles are able to be "temporarily writing" -- the Torah prohibits writing permanently, the Sages all writing to prevent accidentally permanently writing... so an ER doc could use a normal pen, but taking notes during rounds, they could use a Temporary Pen, and the notes are transcribed after Shabbat. So Doctors are permitted to work, since their work involves saving lives. At a power plant, you can work, since the power is necessary for life saving medical devices, etc. OTOH, working in the power company's call center might be more problematic.

 

Regarding water, the running of water is fine, the pumping of it (think old fashioned well+pump) is a problem. However, since it is unlikely that my particular use of the water will trigger the electric pump to turn on, it's permitted.

 

In the diaspora, where these things primarily operate for gentiles (and repaired by them), it's considered a non-problem. In Israel, there are groups that won't go on the power grid over the Sabbath, because while its permitted to leave the AC on, if the power failed, a (presumably) Jewish technician would repair it.

 

I am not an expert on these matters, I'm not a Rabbi, I'm not a particularly learned Jew, I'm a Computer Programmer by training.

 

It is a VERY restful and completely different day from the rest of the week. Since most Orthodox Jews use the Ashkenazi (European) pronunciation of Shabbos, and most non Orthodox Jews will use the Sephardic/Modern (Middle Eastern/Israeli) pronunciation of Shabbat, I often joke that we keep Shabbat on camp sites, we don't keep Shabbos. There are no leisurely long meals of drinking wine and relaxing on a Scout function. We obey the restrictions of Shabbat, but it is NOT the "Shabbos environment" that we have in our normal community experience.

 

If you have more interest in medical devices, medical practice, etc., there is a lot of interesting discussions on it at the Yeshiva University Rabbinate the past few years... discussing if medical practitioners have abused the leniency for saving lives into a general leniency to work as normal. But not one of my 6 - 11 year olds are Medical Doctors.