Scout "Too Young" to be an Eagle?

[Brewmeister]

Give me a motivated 13-year-old Eagle over an 18th-Birthday Eagle any day.

Eagledad, I'm sure you also know of many deathbed Eagles who have barely darkened the door of the Scout house between the ages of 14 and 17. It cuts both ways.

 

The facts are that we don't know this particular boy, it is all just conjecture.

[Eagledad]

Give me a motivated 13-year-old Eagle over an 18th-Birthday Eagle any day.

Of course, but a broad brush painting all 17 year old Eagles as so called deathbed Eagles isn't accurate at all. Quite frankly we brag about the age of our older Eagles because it shows that we have an active program where boys like to hange out. A trend of deathbed Eagles is red flag of problems in the program. Barry

[SR540Beaver]

Give me a motivated 13-year-old Eagle over an 18th-Birthday Eagle any day.

I'll second Barry's comment. I guess my son could be called a deathbed Eagle. He earned Eagle at 17 years and 10 months after earning Eagle at 14. Why the delay? He was busy being a PL, ASPL, SPL, TG and JASM. He served on camp staff for two years as well as two NYLT staffs. He attended Philmont, Northern Tier, backpacked the Pecos Wilderness and attended a second Jambo (first was when he was 12 in 2005) where he served as SPL. He held two OA Chapter leadership positions, did OA elections and ceremonies and held an OA Lodge leadership position. He was also named District SPL and District Boy Scout of the Year. Once he turned 16 and had a job, he couldn't attend the monthly campouts or summer camp, but he never missed a troop meeting all the way up to his 18th birthday.

 

 

 

Typically, the "motivated" 13 year old Eagles got there checking of a list and when they arrive, they (and their parents) feel they have hit the end of the trail and move onto other things because there is "nothing else" to achieve. They lose what had them motivated. But hey, it'll look good on the resume. They are concerned with the destination, not the journey and they missed out on the best part of the trip.

[perdidochas]

Give me a motivated 13-year-old Eagle over an 18th-Birthday Eagle any day.

Most of our deathbed Eagles weren't around much before they got the urge to finish Eagle. Only one of our older Eagles has come back to help the troop. Don't have any younger Eagles to compare them with.

[frankpalazzi]

As long as all the I's are dotted and the T's are crossed and the boy has actually fulfilled the list of requirements, he technically is qualified to earn Eagle. That being said, he is going to be viewed by most people as a technical Eagle, right or wrong. An Eagle with an asterisk beside his name. He may be an Eagle, but he isn't old enough to staff camp. He isn't going to be tapped to serve on an NYLT course or be a course leader. He won't be considered a serious candidate if he were to run for Lodge Chief if he is in OA. Heck, depending on just how young we are talking here, he may not even be eligible to attend a High Adventure base. Etc., etc., etc. He doesn't have the time, breadth, depth and maturity that most people will expect of an Eagle. I never, ever want to squash a boy's desire or spirit. that being said, an SM needs to have a sit down with a boy's parents and the boy as well and have a long discussion. There is the destination.......and there is the journey. The journey is far more important to becoming an Eagle than the destination is. A good SM will channel the boy's ambitions back into the troop instead of simply obtaining a rank. A good SM will convince the boy of how very important the journey is in relation to the rank. Just my two cents.

VERY well said!

[Basementdweller]

Give me a motivated 13-year-old Eagle over an 18th-Birthday Eagle any day.

My son is probably going to be a deathbed eagle.....14 years old Star scout........No leadership position currently....Really excited about the OA the fall fellowship is in about a month and he simply can't wait to attend, and his memory the Jambo is more to the positive side now......He is going to apply to be a CIT next summer at the camp we attend.... He and his patrol have volunteered to work at to local cub spook o ree......should be fun.

 

So will he get eagle???? who knows.....I hope... He is having a bunch of fun currently and that is good enough for dad.

[Kudu]

The BSA program is designed to get a Cub Scout survivor to Eagle without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back.

 

If an indoor boy loves paperwork and office manager theory, why not Eagle at twelve?

 

As for proven "leadership ability," how many Eagle Scouts have even one (1) night of what Baden-Powell considered Boy Scout camping? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100,000?

 

Won't be tapped to be a NYLT Staffer? How many NYLT Course Directors experienced as a Boy Scout (or can even define) what Green Bar Bill called a "Real" Patrol? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100,000?

 

[Kudu]

If we do that correctly' date=' the scouts follow their own vision, not ours. [/quote']

 

That really is the salient point here.

 

I will disagree on the biology comment, however. It is true that biology (physical development) may be an obstacle to effective leadership (because physical size has an advantage), it can be overcome by how the boy handles himself with his peers. That really does come back to the boy, and to training.

Biology?

 

That would be "squeakers:" Twelve-year-old midshipmen in leadership positions over adult gun crews before their voices changed.

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/training/movies.htm

[Scouter99]

I don't know where this idea that a scout needs a beard before he's "ready" for Eagle came from, BSA released this poster on Eagle Scouts a few years ago: http://www.coolinfographics.com/blog...fographic.html

"Average age of Eagle Scouts in 1949" take a guess, go on . . . . . . . . . .

14.6 years old.

 

Most every Eagle in our troop meets the new average (17), but to be honest I don't care for it. (In general) They get up to Star or Life by 14/15, disappear for several years then barnstorm the troop asking for help on their Eagle project from kids who've never even seen them, and squeeze Eagle in just in time to age out and be useless to the troop as an Eagle to begin with.

 

If there's no dispute that the boy has met the requirements, I'll take a 13-yr-old Eagle who still has a couple good years left over a 17-yr-old fly-by-night any day of the week.

[Scouter99]

Give me a motivated 13-year-old Eagle over an 18th-Birthday Eagle any day.

My son is probably going to be a deathbed eagle.....He is having a bunch of fun currently and that is good enough for dad.

Active, present, having fun, volunteering. He might be a last minute Eagle, but I don't see an issue with how he's getting there.

[Brewmeister]

The BSA program is designed to get a Cub Scout survivor to Eagle without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back.

 

If an indoor boy loves paperwork and office manager theory, why not Eagle at twelve?

 

As for proven "leadership ability," how many Eagle Scouts have even one (1) night of what Baden-Powell considered Boy Scout camping? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100,000?

 

Won't be tapped to be a NYLT Staffer? How many NYLT Course Directors experienced as a Boy Scout (or can even define) what Green Bar Bill called a "Real" Patrol? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100,000?

Now, now, Kudu, you're the one that cited the "Master and Commander" example of a 13 year old boy capable of captaining a ship, wasn't it? So by your logic this particular boy could well be capable of displaying the leadership and mastery of skill that you value.

 

None of us, including you, know this specific boy, or this specific circumstance.

[Brewmeister]

Give me a motivated 13-year-old Eagle over an 18th-Birthday Eagle any day.

I agree that calling 17 year old eagles "deathbed" eagles is using a broad (and unfair) brush. But so is calling a 13-year old eagle an "asterisk" eagle.

 

Again-- Every. Boy. Is. Different.

[Brewmeister]

If we do that correctly' date=' the scouts follow their own vision, not ours. [/quote']

 

That really is the salient point here.

 

I will disagree on the biology comment, however. It is true that biology (physical development) may be an obstacle to effective leadership (because physical size has an advantage), it can be overcome by how the boy handles himself with his peers. That really does come back to the boy, and to training.

Edit: I thought you were arguing the point, then I thought you were providing an example in agreement, and now I'm just not sure!

[Venividi]

"disappear for several years then barnstorm the troop asking for help on their Eagle project from kids who've never even seen them, and squeeze Eagle in just in time to age out and be useless to the troop as an Eagle to begin with."

 

How do adults reconcile this with expectations for scouts to be Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful? Some mental gymnastics need to be done to explain away why such a scout is not loyal to his troop or his patrol? Why his troop and patrol cannot trust him with any task? How has he helped his troop, patrol, fellow scout? We once had a scout that absent for anything that required work. When SM didn't sign off on scout spirit requirement, his Mom called and attempted to argue that her son showed scout spirit in his theater group (i.e., every day life), so it shouldn't matter if he didn't show scout spirit at troop functions.

 

If two of our aims are character and citizenship, what character trait is shown by a scout that only participates in the troop for the sole purpose of what the troop can do for him (receive an award to put on a resume?)? How do you reconcile that with being a citizen of the troop? Scout spirit has to mean more than "he never has been arrested".

 

We used to keep scouts on roster in the hopes that they would come back. We wanted to be welcoming. We finally woke up and realized that a scout coming back after several years absence only to work on Eagle requirements, was damaging our program. It was a lousy example to the scouts that did participate and demonstrated to the scouts that the adults may talk the talk of character and scout oath and law, but didn't walk the walk when they gave awards to scouts that did not participate, and were therefore not trustworthy, loyal, nor helpful to the other scouts.

 

There is a subtle, silent message to a 15+ YO that does participate - that he is foolish for puting in effort towards an award that adults approve for individuals that don't participate. Peer pressure will result in more scouts disappearing after 15 - (Why are you hanging out with all those little kids?) It becomes the culture. The culture wont change by itself. If you want to change that culture, the adults will need to lead that change.

[Brewmeister]

"disappear for several years then barnstorm the troop asking for help on their Eagle project from kids who've never even seen them, and squeeze Eagle in just in time to age out and be useless to the troop as an Eagle to begin with."

 

How do adults reconcile this with expectations for scouts to be Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful? Some mental gymnastics need to be done to explain away why such a scout is not loyal to his troop or his patrol? Why his troop and patrol cannot trust him with any task? How has he helped his troop, patrol, fellow scout? We once had a scout that absent for anything that required work. When SM didn't sign off on scout spirit requirement, his Mom called and attempted to argue that her son showed scout spirit in his theater group (i.e., every day life), so it shouldn't matter if he didn't show scout spirit at troop functions.

 

If two of our aims are character and citizenship, what character trait is shown by a scout that only participates in the troop for the sole purpose of what the troop can do for him (receive an award to put on a resume?)? How do you reconcile that with being a citizen of the troop? Scout spirit has to mean more than "he never has been arrested".

 

We used to keep scouts on roster in the hopes that they would come back. We wanted to be welcoming. We finally woke up and realized that a scout coming back after several years absence only to work on Eagle requirements, was damaging our program. It was a lousy example to the scouts that did participate and demonstrated to the scouts that the adults may talk the talk of character and scout oath and law, but didn't walk the walk when they gave awards to scouts that did not participate, and were therefore not trustworthy, loyal, nor helpful to the other scouts.

 

There is a subtle, silent message to a 15+ YO that does participate - that he is foolish for puting in effort towards an award that adults approve for individuals that don't participate. Peer pressure will result in more scouts disappearing after 15 - (Why are you hanging out with all those little kids?) It becomes the culture. The culture wont change by itself. If you want to change that culture, the adults will need to lead that change.

As I've been told, "Active = Registered." Unfortunately.