FAITH has two meanings

[kari_cardi]

The emblem thing is wrong in so many ways..

First - It is not only the atheist you need to be concerned with, but the boy/family who believe in something, but do not belong to any formal religious group.. That means no religious emblem for "I believe in something".. That would be ALOT of your scouts..

 

My friend whose son just joined a pack as a Webelos is a good example of this. They are spiritual but not religious and do not belong to an church. The den leader is insisting that every scout earn the religious medal for requirement 8 because 'that is how we do it in our pack.' So the family has a choice, pull out of scouting or join a church to fulfill the requirement. Neither accomplishes the goal of the requirement.

 

I see it as just another way BSA is used to support discrimination.

The pack supports the leader, the COR supports the pack policy. The family joined this particular pack because they are new to the area (Deep South) and their son has school friends in the pack. They don't feel comfortable confronting the pack further or taking it up the line.

 

I'm not convinced that the leader is stepping outside the 'rules' given LDS units and their modifications of the BSA programs as one example, I also know of local Roman Catholic church units that require all their Webelos to earn Parvuli Dei. The only difference I see is that those units are restricted to one faith rather than allowing scouts of many faith backgrounds to join but require a certain requirement as in this situation.

[qwazse]

The emblem thing is wrong in so many ways..

First - It is not only the atheist you need to be concerned with, but the boy/family who believe in something, but do not belong to any formal religious group.. That means no religious emblem for "I believe in something".. That would be ALOT of your scouts..

 

My friend whose son just joined a pack as a Webelos is a good example of this. They are spiritual but not religious and do not belong to an church. The den leader is insisting that every scout earn the religious medal for requirement 8 because 'that is how we do it in our pack.' So the family has a choice, pull out of scouting or join a church to fulfill the requirement. Neither accomplishes the goal of the requirement.

 

I see it as just another way BSA is used to support discrimination.

DL's have insisted all manner of things upon me and my kids -- from having planning meetings during siesta to saying hand made neckerchief slides are out of uniform, to reversing the last hitch in my taught line. In all cases I ignored without making a fuss.

 

a. during seista made a bee-line for the tent, kept flaps up, pulled hat over my eyes.

b. put the slide my son and I made on necker, politely gathered those central supply slides that kept falling off their active little owner.

c. twanged my lines, making sure they were still taught.

 

Passive aggressive? A little. Pay for my shrink and we'll hash it out. Meanwhile, nothing in the book against it.

 

If I were your friend, I just wouldn't go after the requirement unless little junior really wants to try church. "We prayed about it, and felt led to not adorn ourselves with graven images of religious symbols ...."

[Kudu]

According to one biographer' date=' Baden-Powell and his theologian father (on whose book, "The Order of Nature," B-P based the spiritual aspect of Scouting) were pantheists.[/quote']

 

I don't know about B-P's father but I find it hard to square Baden-Powell's statements on the subject of religion with pantheism, e.g.:

 

"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws." (a pantheistic god doesn't have laws apart from the laws of nature)

 

"Scouting is nothing less than applied Christianity."

 

I also find it odd that the first link (http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm'>http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm) discusses B-P's troubled relationships with Churchmen but not his friendly ones (e.g., Cardinal Bourne, Fr. Sevin, etc.). I don't think one can conclude that B-P was a pantheist based on his father's pantheistic writings, even if he was somewhat influenced by them. I also tend to take Jeal's work with a grain of salt considering his tendency toward speculation (e.g. that Baden-Powell was a "repressed homosexual").

 

I don't know about B-P's father but I find it hard to square Baden-Powell's statements on the subject of religion with pantheism, e.g.:

 

"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws." (a pantheistic god doesn't have laws apart from the laws of nature)

 

 

Easily squared: A skeptical Scout inoculated with B-P's brand of woodsy pantheism reads that as "No man is much good unless he believes in the transformative power of nature and obeys its laws.

 

 

 

 

"Scouting is nothing less than applied Christianity."

 

 

From the very first fortnight edition of Scouting for Boys, Baden-Powell used the Buddhist culture of Burma as his prime example of applied Christianity.

 

 

 

 

I also find it odd that the first link (http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm) discusses B-P's troubled relationships with Churchmen but not his friendly ones (e.g., Cardinal Bourne, Fr. Sevin, etc.).

 

Maybe friendly Christians do not threaten to destroy the Scouting "Movement as a national institution" if nature offers an alternative to "Revealed Religion," or announce that God had condemned Baden-Powell's namesake to hell for essentially the same reason?

 

 

 

I also tend to take Jeal's work with a grain of salt considering his tendency toward speculation.

 

 

Certainly there is no room for speculation in history or religion!

[Horizon]

I picked up this book at summer camp one year:

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Gospel-Red-Man-Indian/dp/1585092762

 

The opening by Seton is fantastic, and talks about how the religion of the Native American fits with the Christian, the Jew and the Muslim. I have read that portion for a Scout's Own service.

 

As for the scattering of our faiths, I have met and enjoyed the sermons of Erin Dunigan:

 

http://not-church.org/tag/erin-dunigan/

[Peregrinator]

According to one biographer' date=' Baden-Powell and his theologian father (on whose book, "The Order of Nature," B-P based the spiritual aspect of Scouting) were pantheists.[/quote']

 

I don't know about B-P's father but I find it hard to square Baden-Powell's statements on the subject of religion with pantheism, e.g.:

 

"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws." (a pantheistic god doesn't have laws apart from the laws of nature)

 

"Scouting is nothing less than applied Christianity."

 

I also find it odd that the first link (http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm) discusses B-P's troubled relationships with Churchmen but not his friendly ones (e.g., Cardinal Bourne, Fr. Sevin, etc.). I don't think one can conclude that B-P was a pantheist based on his father's pantheistic writings, even if he was somewhat influenced by them. I also tend to take Jeal's work with a grain of salt considering his tendency toward speculation (e.g. that Baden-Powell was a "repressed homosexual").

Easily squared: A skeptical Scout inoculated with B-P's brand of woodsy pantheism reads that as "No man is much good unless he believes in the transformative power of nature and obeys its laws.

 

There's a difference between saying that a pantheist can be a scout (which is what you're saying) and saying that B-P was a pantheist (which is what I'm arguing against). I don't deny that a pantheist could be a scout ... I deny that B-P was a pantheist.

 

From the very first fortnight edition of Scouting for Boys, Baden-Powell used the Buddhist culture of Burma as his prime example of applied Christianity.

 

I will have to take your word for that since I don't have my copy handy, but I don't see how that argues against my point either. I don't see why a Buddhist could not practice what Baden-Powell calls "applied Christianity." But a pantheist is unlikely to call the scouting method "applied Christianity."

 

Maybe friendly Christians do not threaten to destroy the Scouting "Movement as a national institution" if nature offers an alternative to "Revealed Religion," or announce that God had condemned Baden-Powell's namesake to hell for essentially the same reason?

 

Not sure what your point is here ... I was simply pointing out that Baden-Powell had friendly relationships with some churchmen and gave some examples (which, by the way, were not exhaustive). So to state that B-P had a troubled relationship with clergy or with organized religion or whatever is not telling the whole story. Of course we might all focus on the parts of B-P's life that meet our own preconceptions ... maybe we try to see ourselves in him. But having troubled relationships with clergy does not make one a pantheist (*cough* St. Joan of Arc *cough*).

 

Certainly there is no room for speculation in history or religion!

 

Of course there is room for such, but Jeal's contention that B-P was a "repressed homosexual" was highly speculative, a conclusion for which evidence is scanty, if not non-existent.

[WAKWIB]

Instead of "Faith has two meanings" maybe you should approach it from the perspective of "Many meanings have Faith."

 

I thought about this today after adding a new word to my lexicon. The word was "Catamount" and I had never come across it before. I was reading a book set in Appalachia which included a passage about a fearsome catamount who was terrorizing the families in the glen. The description and choice of words evoked an emotion (fear.) Not being familiar with the word or Appalachia I thought it might be a dangerous mythical creature not unlike the Lock Ness Monster or Big Foot. I looked up the word and discovered that a catamount is also known as: Puma, Cougar, Mountain Lion, and Panther. Armed with information I returned to the book with understanding, no longer confused with a fear of the unknown.

 

The same is true for religion. A lot of people engage in knee-jerk reactions because they are uneducated. I'm on the "bad list" of a good portion of the community because I'm not Christian. I hear a lot about "those atheist," "those Muslims," or "those who are into the Occult." If people took the time to understand each other they would know that "those atheist" actually posses a moral compass and "those Muslims" worship the same God as you Christians, or that those "weirdos into the occult" really just worship nature.

 

Good Luck. (And you might want to pick up a copy of Being a United Methodist in the Bible Belt and read it before you begin; it has good information on how to counter denominational infighting.)

Another quick correction: You will be hard pressed to find a Muslim that worships the same God as the Christians. By definition, a Christian is one who believes that Jesus Christ is God. Islam assigns Jesus the status of prophet, but does not in any way acknowledge Him as God.

[packsaddle]

HEY MODERATORS!!!!

We Need """A Faith and Chaplaincy """" Forum (or Subforum).... This thread should be moved to the newly established Faith and Chaplaincy Subforum., post haste.....

 

 

I have to often remind Scouters that BSA is not a Christian organization, altho any Scout Unit may so declare themselves. I have a Troop nearby that requires any prospective member to prove they are a member of a Catholic chufch (not necessarily the sponsoring church). Another Troop is sponsored by a Muslim Mosque, but they have declared that they are willing to accept a Scout not Muslim, so long as the Scout realizes that the Troop will be doing "Muslim things" all the time.

 

That said, BSA does have a "Declaration of Religious etc. " and Our Founder declared (quote)

""Reverence to God and reverence for one's neighbour and reverence for oneself as a servant of God, is the basis of every form of religion. The method of expression of reverence to God varies with every sect and denomination. What sect or denomination a boy belongs to depends, as a rule, on his parents' wishes. It is they who decide. It is our business to respect their wishes and to second their efforts to inculcate reverence, whatever form of religion the boy professes."" And no one has ever said it better since....

 

If the atheism topic comes up, it is incumbent on the Scout Leader to nod and say "um-mmm" and keep all the possibilities open. Even (even?) atheists can be "reverent", as defined in the Scout Law (older or newer versions not withstanding), and we should allow them to do that.

"Hey Moderators...."

 

It might surprise you to learn that moderators have little more influence over something like that than do the other members. If enough of you write to Terry, he might consider it. I've tried to figure out how to start a sub-forum and either I'm too stupid to figure it out or else it can't be done by me. Either way, I'm going to toss the task back to you guys.

[Kudu]

I deny that B-P was a pantheist.

Clearly you are not moved by the beauty of the passages that Jeal quotes. A pantheist would point out that your reaction is an expression of all the natural laws in the universe.

 

 

Not sure what your point is here ... But having troubled relationships with clergy does not make one a pantheist.

Note the context: Jeal is quoting the clergy that reacted to Baden-Powell's pantheistic article "Religion of Backwoods."

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm

 

 

I don't see why a Buddhist could not practice what Baden-Powell calls "applied Christianity." But a pantheist is unlikely to call the scouting method "applied Christianity."

A pantheist is just as likely as a Buddhist to recognize applied Christianity ("service to one's neighbor") as a metaphor intended for a Christian audience:

 

"Some may object that the religion of the Backwoods is also a religion of the backward; and to some extent it is so. It is going back to the primitive, to the elemental, but at the same time it is to the common ground on which most forms of religion are based --- namely, the appreciation of God and service to one's neighbor" (Baden-Powell).

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/b-p/backwoods.htm

 

[Peregrinator]

Kudu, I think you are confusing indifferentism (which is what B-P was criticized for) with pantheism.