FAITH has two meanings

[DigitalScout]

Use Scoutlike invocations. There are some very neutral ones out there. 1. A SCOUT'S PRAYER

 

Lord, we thank you for this day.

Help us to do our best every day,

And forgive us when we slip.

 

Teach us to be kind to other people

and to help them at all times

Bless our parents and teachers and leaders

and all the members of Scouting

 

Bless us, Lord in your love for us

Help us to be a better Scouts

and let us do our best for you

 

Amen

 

5. A SCOUTER'S PRAYER

 

"Build me a Scout, O Lord, who will be strong enough to know when he is weak and brave enough to face himself when he is afraid; one who will be proud and unbending in honest defeat, and humble and gentle in victory...

 

Build me a Scout whose wishes will not take the place of deeds; a Scout who himself is the

foundation stone of knowledge...

 

Lead him, I pray, not in the path of ease and comfort, but under the stress and spur of difficulties and challenge. Here let him learn to stand up in the storm; here let him learn compassion for those who fail...

 

Build me a Scout whose heart will be clear, whose goals will be high. A Scout who will master himself before he seeks to master others, one who will march into the future, yet never forget the past...

 

And after all these things are his, add, I pray, enough of a sense of humor so that he may always be serious, yet never take himself too seriously. Give him humility, so that he may always remember the simplicity of true wisdom, and the meekness of true strength...

 

Then I, a Scouter who knew him, will dare to whisper, `I have not lived in vain.'"

Having been in Jewish and Christian services, the words "Lord" and "Amen" are commonly used by both religions. I'm not 100% sure about Muslim traditions but I believe they may use "Amen."

[King Ding Dong]

Use Scoutlike invocations. There are some very neutral ones out there. 1. A SCOUT'S PRAYER

 

Lord, we thank you for this day.

Help us to do our best every day,

And forgive us when we slip.

 

Teach us to be kind to other people

and to help them at all times

Bless our parents and teachers and leaders

and all the members of Scouting

 

Bless us, Lord in your love for us

Help us to be a better Scouts

and let us do our best for you

 

Amen

 

5. A SCOUTER'S PRAYER

 

"Build me a Scout, O Lord, who will be strong enough to know when he is weak and brave enough to face himself when he is afraid; one who will be proud and unbending in honest defeat, and humble and gentle in victory...

 

Build me a Scout whose wishes will not take the place of deeds; a Scout who himself is the

foundation stone of knowledge...

 

Lead him, I pray, not in the path of ease and comfort, but under the stress and spur of difficulties and challenge. Here let him learn to stand up in the storm; here let him learn compassion for those who fail...

 

Build me a Scout whose heart will be clear, whose goals will be high. A Scout who will master himself before he seeks to master others, one who will march into the future, yet never forget the past...

 

And after all these things are his, add, I pray, enough of a sense of humor so that he may always be serious, yet never take himself too seriously. Give him humility, so that he may always remember the simplicity of true wisdom, and the meekness of true strength...

 

Then I, a Scouter who knew him, will dare to whisper, `I have not lived in vain.'"

Digital, Pastafarians use RAmen. So would that be OK to use ? Probably not. Why ?

[King Ding Dong]

Einstein's paraphrase of Spinoza's pantheist "God is the sum total of all the natural laws in the universe" worked for all of eight of my self-declared atheist Scouts over the years, since it does not require belief in the supernatural.

 

According to one biographer, Baden-Powell and his theologian father (on whose book, "The Order of Nature," B-P based the spiritual aspect of Scouting) were pantheists.

 

See:

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm

 

and

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/order_nature/pantheism.htm

 

As for a pantheistic invocation, how about:

 

"Heavenly Father, by definition all knees must bend to Thee, as Thou art the sum total of all the natural laws in the universe."

 

An emblem of faith is easy enough: One of those Baden-Powell portrait patches, worn on the temporary patch pocket.

 

If you can't find a Baden-Powell patch, simply substitute one of Bruce Tuckman, since nobody in Wood Badge can tell them apart.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

Some would not be comfortable with the "Heavenly" or "Father" part.

[NeverAnEagle]

Yeah, technically your Athiest Webelos cannot be members of the BSA. there is certainly no Emblem of Faith they can earn since they don't have any faith in God, eh?

 

At Webelos level, we take it to mean that the youth is exploring his faith and whether he believes or not, but that his parents are declaring themselves Athiest. so our pack doesn't kick them out for that. We do encourage them to explore other faiths, and an excellent way to do it locally is thru the 10 commandment hike that Grand Canyon Council puts on, where we visit the house of worship for many denominations, hike to each one, covering maybe 5 miles in the process. We will usually have the standard christian groups catholics, protestant, methodists,etc and LDS but also Jewish, Muslim and sometimes we get Hindu (they usually talk in a park setting along the way). Each group talks about one of the Commandments, how it applies in their religion if it does, and then talks a little bit about their church and opens it up to the youth to ask questions, where you get the questions of why the pastor wears those robes or why the church windows are stained glass or why there are all these symbols on the wall. You could do similar by visiting a few religious organizations/churches in your area to expose them to options, with their parents approval of course.

 

However, by the time they are Boy Scouts, they'll need to determine if they have a faith in a higher power or not. They do not have to belong to a religious organization, so they don't have to be a member of a church, and don't have to earn the emblem of faith in their religion, but they have to have a faith in a higher power.

 

 

It is best to have this discussion soon, rather than put it off for the scoutmaster to be caught unaware later on, and it to become an issue of someone getting kicked out.

Here is a question: Why does it matter to you, as a SM, what the lads religion is or isn't?

 

Did the lad actually say, "Hey Mr. B, I'm atheist." or could you simply let it go and assume he said, "Hey Mr. B, I'm a theist."

 

Simply letting atheist spell the word with an extra space could solve a lot of problems. Not to mention that the sentences sound exactly the same!

[Peregrinator]

According to one biographer' date=' Baden-Powell and his theologian father (on whose book, "The Order of Nature," B-P based the spiritual aspect of Scouting) were pantheists.[/quote']

 

I don't know about B-P's father but I find it hard to square Baden-Powell's statements on the subject of religion with pantheism, e.g.:

 

"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws." (a pantheistic god doesn't have laws apart from the laws of nature)

 

"Scouting is nothing less than applied Christianity."

 

I also find it odd that the first link (http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm) discusses B-P's troubled relationships with Churchmen but not his friendly ones (e.g., Cardinal Bourne, Fr. Sevin, etc.). I don't think one can conclude that B-P was a pantheist based on his father's pantheistic writings, even if he was somewhat influenced by them. I also tend to take Jeal's work with a grain of salt considering his tendency toward speculation (e.g. that Baden-Powell was a "repressed homosexual").

[packsaddle]

I get confused reading your post because you are talking about Webelos and you keep using the word Troop. Webelos are not in a troop they are in a Pack. Secondly, all of your scouts may not be able to earn the Religous Emblem because their religion may not have one recognized by the BSA. Be very careful bringing up the word atheist in the BSA, some councils are very understanding and will work with a family to find some common ground, others will not. If questioned on the subject, and the response is not satisfactory membership in the BSA can be denied in some circumstances. Pastafarianism is a fun option for many, although there is no recognized Emblem. I am not an official member of The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster but have friends that are. It seems to satisfy both the BSA and many atheists and non-atheists.

Religious emblem 'approval' only applies to whether it can be worn 'legally' on the uniform. The emblems themselves are not BSA awards.

[packsaddle]

Random religious fact: during a public census in the United Kingdom so many people (tens of thousands) noted their religion as being "Jedi"

so that the British Goverment had no choice but to accept "Jedi" as an official religion.

 

Now all I need is a light saber :-)

I've always been partial to Bene Gesserit.

[packsaddle]

Instead of "Faith has two meanings" maybe you should approach it from the perspective of "Many meanings have Faith."

 

I thought about this today after adding a new word to my lexicon. The word was "Catamount" and I had never come across it before. I was reading a book set in Appalachia which included a passage about a fearsome catamount who was terrorizing the families in the glen. The description and choice of words evoked an emotion (fear.) Not being familiar with the word or Appalachia I thought it might be a dangerous mythical creature not unlike the Lock Ness Monster or Big Foot. I looked up the word and discovered that a catamount is also known as: Puma, Cougar, Mountain Lion, and Panther. Armed with information I returned to the book with understanding, no longer confused with a fear of the unknown.

 

The same is true for religion. A lot of people engage in knee-jerk reactions because they are uneducated. I'm on the "bad list" of a good portion of the community because I'm not Christian. I hear a lot about "those atheist," "those Muslims," or "those who are into the Occult." If people took the time to understand each other they would know that "those atheist" actually posses a moral compass and "those Muslims" worship the same God as you Christians, or that those "weirdos into the occult" really just worship nature.

 

Good Luck. (And you might want to pick up a copy of Being a United Methodist in the Bible Belt and read it before you begin; it has good information on how to counter denominational infighting.)

A quick correction: it's Loch Ness.

[packsaddle]

According to one biographer' date=' Baden-Powell and his theologian father (on whose book, "The Order of Nature," B-P based the spiritual aspect of Scouting) were pantheists.[/quote']

 

I don't know about B-P's father but I find it hard to square Baden-Powell's statements on the subject of religion with pantheism, e.g.:

 

"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws." (a pantheistic god doesn't have laws apart from the laws of nature)

 

"Scouting is nothing less than applied Christianity."

 

I also find it odd that the first link (http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm) discusses B-P's troubled relationships with Churchmen but not his friendly ones (e.g., Cardinal Bourne, Fr. Sevin, etc.). I don't think one can conclude that B-P was a pantheist based on his father's pantheistic writings, even if he was somewhat influenced by them. I also tend to take Jeal's work with a grain of salt considering his tendency toward speculation (e.g. that Baden-Powell was a "repressed homosexual").

Thing about references to 'founding fathers'....it's entirely possible that THEY were just as confused about all this stuff as we are.

[kari_cardi]

The emblem thing is wrong in so many ways..

First - It is not only the atheist you need to be concerned with, but the boy/family who believe in something, but do not belong to any formal religious group.. That means no religious emblem for "I believe in something".. That would be ALOT of your scouts..

 

My friend whose son just joined a pack as a Webelos is a good example of this. They are spiritual but not religious and do not belong to an church. The den leader is insisting that every scout earn the religious medal for requirement 8 because 'that is how we do it in our pack.' So the family has a choice, pull out of scouting or join a church to fulfill the requirement. Neither accomplishes the goal of the requirement.

 

I see it as just another way BSA is used to support discrimination.

[King Ding Dong]

The emblem thing is wrong in so many ways..

First - It is not only the atheist you need to be concerned with, but the boy/family who believe in something, but do not belong to any formal religious group.. That means no religious emblem for "I believe in something".. That would be ALOT of your scouts..

 

My friend whose son just joined a pack as a Webelos is a good example of this. They are spiritual but not religious and do not belong to an church. The den leader is insisting that every scout earn the religious medal for requirement 8 because 'that is how we do it in our pack.' So the family has a choice, pull out of scouting or join a church to fulfill the requirement. Neither accomplishes the goal of the requirement.

 

I see it as just another way BSA is used to support discrimination.

Because of the minimum 25 chartered units rule and other issues not every religion has an emblem. He is insisting this boy change his religion. Expose this creep publicly and loudly. Contact your DE ASAP.

[skeptic]

The emblem thing is wrong in so many ways..

First - It is not only the atheist you need to be concerned with, but the boy/family who believe in something, but do not belong to any formal religious group.. That means no religious emblem for "I believe in something".. That would be ALOT of your scouts..

 

My friend whose son just joined a pack as a Webelos is a good example of this. They are spiritual but not religious and do not belong to an church. The den leader is insisting that every scout earn the religious medal for requirement 8 because 'that is how we do it in our pack.' So the family has a choice, pull out of scouting or join a church to fulfill the requirement. Neither accomplishes the goal of the requirement.

 

I see it as just another way BSA is used to support discrimination.

What about just going to another pack that is less demanding and out of the loop? And it is not the BSA that is doing this; it is a particular misinformed and didactic leader who really needs to be shaken by a local Cub committee or similar district level person or group. Or maybe someone simply needs to go to the COR; maybe they are not aware of this.

[Peregrinator]

According to one biographer' date=' Baden-Powell and his theologian father (on whose book, "The Order of Nature," B-P based the spiritual aspect of Scouting) were pantheists.[/quote']

 

I don't know about B-P's father but I find it hard to square Baden-Powell's statements on the subject of religion with pantheism, e.g.:

 

"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws." (a pantheistic god doesn't have laws apart from the laws of nature)

 

"Scouting is nothing less than applied Christianity."

 

I also find it odd that the first link (http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm) discusses B-P's troubled relationships with Churchmen but not his friendly ones (e.g., Cardinal Bourne, Fr. Sevin, etc.). I don't think one can conclude that B-P was a pantheist based on his father's pantheistic writings, even if he was somewhat influenced by them. I also tend to take Jeal's work with a grain of salt considering his tendency toward speculation (e.g. that Baden-Powell was a "repressed homosexual").

Sure, but being "confused" doesn't make one a pantheist or a repressed homosexual

[SSScout]

HEY MODERATORS!!!!

We Need """A Faith and Chaplaincy """" Forum (or Subforum).... This thread should be moved to the newly established Faith and Chaplaincy Subforum., post haste.....

 

 

I have to often remind Scouters that BSA is not a Christian organization, altho any Scout Unit may so declare themselves. I have a Troop nearby that requires any prospective member to prove they are a member of a Catholic chufch (not necessarily the sponsoring church). Another Troop is sponsored by a Muslim Mosque, but they have declared that they are willing to accept a Scout not Muslim, so long as the Scout realizes that the Troop will be doing "Muslim things" all the time.

 

That said, BSA does have a "Declaration of Religious etc. " and Our Founder declared (quote)

""Reverence to God and reverence for one's neighbour and reverence for oneself as a servant of God, is the basis of every form of religion. The method of expression of reverence to God varies with every sect and denomination. What sect or denomination a boy belongs to depends, as a rule, on his parents' wishes. It is they who decide. It is our business to respect their wishes and to second their efforts to inculcate reverence, whatever form of religion the boy professes."" And no one has ever said it better since....

 

If the atheism topic comes up, it is incumbent on the Scout Leader to nod and say "um-mmm" and keep all the possibilities open. Even (even?) atheists can be "reverent", as defined in the Scout Law (older or newer versions not withstanding), and we should allow them to do that.

[qwazse]

HEY MODERATORS!!!!

We Need """A Faith and Chaplaincy """" Forum (or Subforum).... This thread should be moved to the newly established Faith and Chaplaincy Subforum., post haste.....

 

 

I have to often remind Scouters that BSA is not a Christian organization, altho any Scout Unit may so declare themselves. I have a Troop nearby that requires any prospective member to prove they are a member of a Catholic chufch (not necessarily the sponsoring church). Another Troop is sponsored by a Muslim Mosque, but they have declared that they are willing to accept a Scout not Muslim, so long as the Scout realizes that the Troop will be doing "Muslim things" all the time.

 

That said, BSA does have a "Declaration of Religious etc. " and Our Founder declared (quote)

""Reverence to God and reverence for one's neighbour and reverence for oneself as a servant of God, is the basis of every form of religion. The method of expression of reverence to God varies with every sect and denomination. What sect or denomination a boy belongs to depends, as a rule, on his parents' wishes. It is they who decide. It is our business to respect their wishes and to second their efforts to inculcate reverence, whatever form of religion the boy professes."" And no one has ever said it better since....

 

If the atheism topic comes up, it is incumbent on the Scout Leader to nod and say "um-mmm" and keep all the possibilities open. Even (even?) atheists can be "reverent", as defined in the Scout Law (older or newer versions not withstanding), and we should allow them to do that.

SSScout, how is particular kerfuffle any different than our threads about knots or catapults?

 

Helping youth get their heads around religion (first their parents', then their own, then others') is part of the program.