Trail Life confused over who they are?????

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

It's kinda too bad that groups can no longer gather on similarities. Everything has to be diverse. While we promote this in certain aspects of life, we violently object to it in others. I want to join a group that basically doesn't want me around??? Why would I ever consider doing that???? Now to me the only rationale for such activity is to dictate to that group one's own beliefs. I'm going to join a Christian group to make it something other than Christian? Yep, we call that DIVERSITY. I'm going to join any group and going to make it Christian? And then the fight begins....! Yep, we call that TERRORIST, HATE MONGERS.

 

I know such groups out there such as the NCCAP and KKK that promote certain principles, neither of which I am interested in being involved with. I have no desire to join either group, nor am I interested in disrupting their organizations by making them diverse. First of all I highly doubt whether it would do any good.

 

On the other hand I don't what what they are promoting to dictate to me. I leave them alone, they leave me alone. That seems fair to me. Basically I don't personally like to be associated with anything racist, one way or the other, for or against. Why? Because the first thing I must do is judge people based on race to know who's my friend and who isn't.

 

With all the fur flying, it's pretty hard to tell one hypocrite from another out there these days.

 

Stosh

Besides which, the NAACP (I assume you meant) was started by mostly white people, and it was 25 years before the head of the NAACP was black, since there weren't a lot of black lawyers around 1909.

[Stosh]

To an extent I agree with you jblake.. But, I think with BSA, it was that the group formed, then over the years the people in the group grew apart in beliefs on which path to take, so the division occured. Kindof a wake up call to Liberal when in the 1990's the conservatives created rules the liberals did not care for and started kicking people who were once welcomed out of BSA.. Then for 10 years we have been fighting with each other.. Got louder over the years as more people took on the liberal point of view and conservatives started to loose the battle.. Same battle is being waged in Churches now.. When the Conservatives have the upper hand, the Liberals just continue to fight for change.. When the liberals win the battle, the conservatives pick up their marbles and leave to create their newly formed Conservative church.. I don't see this changing..

 

It might take another 50 to 100 years, but this new TL organization (if it survives that long) will also start having members grow and have changing attitudes and will want those reflected in TL program, and thus the battle in TL will start up. It is the cycle of life and a long living organization takes on a life of it's own, it either evolves with time or becomes extinct.

As long as people think in terms of us and them, it will continue just as it has since day one.... That what was surprising with the Founding Father's documents. Freedom for all is a concept that simply cannot be accepted by the us/them people. Letting people live in a way they wish basically usurps their power base, something they cannot tolerate.

 

Stosh

[click23]

I find it humorous that the folks that were pushing the conservatives out of the organization and now spending their time wringing their hands about the membership requirements of their new organization. You won folks! Congrats! Now, what are you doing for the new BSA? You all are like 60s radicals who spent their time fighting "the man" only to find out that they have become "the man" and don't know what to do anymore. Time to lead folks. Build a new beautiful diverse BSA and draw folks and money back into the fold. That's the promise, right?

dcsimmons, I really doubt any youth protection policies will change. If you take a look at the Learning for Life YPT, where there are no membership standards, it is the same as Venturing except that some of the terminology has changed. And if you have one boy that you say cannot shower or tent with other boys, that could be considered discrimination and no one wants that label.

[Stosh]

It's kinda too bad that groups can no longer gather on similarities. Everything has to be diverse. While we promote this in certain aspects of life, we violently object to it in others. I want to join a group that basically doesn't want me around??? Why would I ever consider doing that???? Now to me the only rationale for such activity is to dictate to that group one's own beliefs. I'm going to join a Christian group to make it something other than Christian? Yep, we call that DIVERSITY. I'm going to join any group and going to make it Christian? And then the fight begins....! Yep, we call that TERRORIST, HATE MONGERS.

 

I know such groups out there such as the NCCAP and KKK that promote certain principles, neither of which I am interested in being involved with. I have no desire to join either group, nor am I interested in disrupting their organizations by making them diverse. First of all I highly doubt whether it would do any good.

 

On the other hand I don't what what they are promoting to dictate to me. I leave them alone, they leave me alone. That seems fair to me. Basically I don't personally like to be associated with anything racist, one way or the other, for or against. Why? Because the first thing I must do is judge people based on race to know who's my friend and who isn't.

 

With all the fur flying, it's pretty hard to tell one hypocrite from another out there these days.

 

Stosh

KDD, hmmm, where did I express it either way? All I said was organizations that promote racism or even attempt to draw race distinctions, do not show up on my personal radar. I have better things to do that worry about knowing who's on which side.

 

It's call toleration, something that is a foreign concept to American society today.

 

So if one wishes to distort my comments far enough, I'm sure one could make the the case that yes, I haven't the time of day, nor the energy on organizations that spend any amount of effort on racial issues. Whereas I don't view people based on their race, more so on their character, it has no relevance to me. I guess I prefer to hang out with what I would call NICE people. How you wish to translate that is up to you. I have no control over what you think.

 

Merlyn: as far as your comments, knowing who's white and who's black in the NAACP (sorry for the earlier typo), is of no interest to me, nor is the cause to which they adhere. As long as they don't interfere in my freedoms, they can do whatever they want. Had you said the NAACP was created by people with an agenda to promote the black community, I would still have quit listening. Of course if any organization was created by people with an agenda to promote one community over another community, my ears will shut down. Now if any organization was created by people with an agenda to promote their community as a whole, then I'll hear them out. That's where I invest my efforts.

 

Stosh

[walk in the woods]

Moose, A lot of folks call that standing on principle. Stay and fight for yours, that is your right. But do not deny folks who disagree the right to follow theirs. Regardless, the debate is over and nobody here has answered my question. Why do any of us care about what TLUSA is doing? They made their decision and left, which is what they said they would do. Why are scouters in the BSA taking pot shots at them and their organization?

[walk in the woods]

I find it humorous that the folks that were pushing the conservatives out of the organization and now spending their time wringing their hands about the membership requirements of their new organization. You won folks! Congrats! Now, what are you doing for the new BSA? You all are like 60s radicals who spent their time fighting "the man" only to find out that they have become "the man" and don't know what to do anymore. Time to lead folks. Build a new beautiful diverse BSA and draw folks and money back into the fold. That's the promise, right?

KDD, for many folks it is guilt by association. We all belong to the BSA and therefore, by definition, either support or silently tolerate the policies thereof. For many folks that simply not a tenable situation. And the choice of revolution like Moose suggests simply isn't worth the effort. When put into a position to choose between their values and a volunteer organization, the decision to leave is simple. During the debate we were often told about liberal families who refused to put their kids in scouting because of the old policy. There were some on this board who threatened to take their kids out of scouting if the vote went the other way. Same coin, opposite side.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

It's kinda too bad that groups can no longer gather on similarities. Everything has to be diverse. While we promote this in certain aspects of life, we violently object to it in others. I want to join a group that basically doesn't want me around??? Why would I ever consider doing that???? Now to me the only rationale for such activity is to dictate to that group one's own beliefs. I'm going to join a Christian group to make it something other than Christian? Yep, we call that DIVERSITY. I'm going to join any group and going to make it Christian? And then the fight begins....! Yep, we call that TERRORIST, HATE MONGERS.

 

I know such groups out there such as the NCCAP and KKK that promote certain principles, neither of which I am interested in being involved with. I have no desire to join either group, nor am I interested in disrupting their organizations by making them diverse. First of all I highly doubt whether it would do any good.

 

On the other hand I don't what what they are promoting to dictate to me. I leave them alone, they leave me alone. That seems fair to me. Basically I don't personally like to be associated with anything racist, one way or the other, for or against. Why? Because the first thing I must do is judge people based on race to know who's my friend and who isn't.

 

With all the fur flying, it's pretty hard to tell one hypocrite from another out there these days.

 

Stosh

Well, the NAACP was originally started to cut down on all the lynching.

[King Ding Dong]

It's kinda too bad that groups can no longer gather on similarities. Everything has to be diverse. While we promote this in certain aspects of life, we violently object to it in others. I want to join a group that basically doesn't want me around??? Why would I ever consider doing that???? Now to me the only rationale for such activity is to dictate to that group one's own beliefs. I'm going to join a Christian group to make it something other than Christian? Yep, we call that DIVERSITY. I'm going to join any group and going to make it Christian? And then the fight begins....! Yep, we call that TERRORIST, HATE MONGERS.

 

I know such groups out there such as the NCCAP and KKK that promote certain principles, neither of which I am interested in being involved with. I have no desire to join either group, nor am I interested in disrupting their organizations by making them diverse. First of all I highly doubt whether it would do any good.

 

On the other hand I don't what what they are promoting to dictate to me. I leave them alone, they leave me alone. That seems fair to me. Basically I don't personally like to be associated with anything racist, one way or the other, for or against. Why? Because the first thing I must do is judge people based on race to know who's my friend and who isn't.

 

With all the fur flying, it's pretty hard to tell one hypocrite from another out there these days.

 

Stosh

"Basically I don't personally like to be associated with anything racist, one way or the other, for or against." Was just a confusing sentence to me, especially the for or against part. I understand what you are trying to say better now.

[Stosh]

It's kinda too bad that groups can no longer gather on similarities. Everything has to be diverse. While we promote this in certain aspects of life, we violently object to it in others. I want to join a group that basically doesn't want me around??? Why would I ever consider doing that???? Now to me the only rationale for such activity is to dictate to that group one's own beliefs. I'm going to join a Christian group to make it something other than Christian? Yep, we call that DIVERSITY. I'm going to join any group and going to make it Christian? And then the fight begins....! Yep, we call that TERRORIST, HATE MONGERS.

 

I know such groups out there such as the NCCAP and KKK that promote certain principles, neither of which I am interested in being involved with. I have no desire to join either group, nor am I interested in disrupting their organizations by making them diverse. First of all I highly doubt whether it would do any good.

 

On the other hand I don't what what they are promoting to dictate to me. I leave them alone, they leave me alone. That seems fair to me. Basically I don't personally like to be associated with anything racist, one way or the other, for or against. Why? Because the first thing I must do is judge people based on race to know who's my friend and who isn't.

 

With all the fur flying, it's pretty hard to tell one hypocrite from another out there these days.

 

Stosh

Merlyn: Well, it sounds like a legal issue, not a race issue. Does it really matter whether the victim is black, white, brown, red, yellow, blue or green? If people are out there killing other people (even the reason why is not important) they need to be held accountable and at the very least, taken out of society and locked up for a long time. If they can't live peacefully in a community, put them someplace where everyone in that community can be safe. Too often I am inundated with the BS (not Boy Scout) about how it's okay for black kids to beat up a white kid, but white kids can't beat up a black kid. Hypocrisy aside, why do we have kids out there beating up other kids? Lock them up so all our kids can be safe. Who taught these bullies about us/them reasoning in the first place????! People aren't born that way, they are taught it. And how was that done? By people spending an enormous amount of time pointing out to them race is a big deal when in fact it isn't.

 

Stosh

[Stosh]

Moose, A lot of folks call that standing on principle. Stay and fight for yours, that is your right. But do not deny folks who disagree the right to follow theirs. Regardless, the debate is over and nobody here has answered my question. Why do any of us care about what TLUSA is doing? They made their decision and left, which is what they said they would do. Why are scouters in the BSA taking pot shots at them and their organization?

Because all of a sudden there's a cause to point out that there are the real people over here and the not real people over there.

 

Some people just aren't happy unless they are complaining about something.

 

If these people want to do something else, what business is it of mine? None whatsoever!

 

MYOB used to mean something in a free society. It only goes to show how much freedom we've lost over the past 200+ years.

 

Stosh

[NJCubScouter]

There have been some comments in this thread on the idea that the YP guidelines may be modified as a result of the change being made to the youth membership policy. It appears that the guidelines will not be modified. There is a document on the BSA web site (dated August 2013) that contains guidance for units on implementing the policy change. (I am not sure what the BSA has done to make sure people are aware of this information, other than putting it on their own web site. I have not seen any discussion of it in this forum.) I tried to cut and paste parts of this document but it is formatted in a way that makes that very difficult - for me, at least. Maybe someone else can figure it out.

 

Suffice it to say that this document contains some statements that are going to be viewed differently by different people in this forum. On the "tenting" issue, for example, it basically says that the local units can figure out the tenting arrangements for themselves, which is what I have been saying for years. The whole theme of the document is that very little will change. There is a question in the "FAQ" about to do if a Scout tells you he is attracted to persons of his own gender, and I am pleased to see that the answer makes fairly clear that such a statement does NOT amount to "flaunting" of a Scout's orientation. In other words, a Scout can be openly gay as long as all that's involved is talking. That is my interpretation, anyway.

 

A discussion of this document probably should be in its own thread, but here is the document: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/tr...tation_FAQ.pdf

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

It's kinda too bad that groups can no longer gather on similarities. Everything has to be diverse. While we promote this in certain aspects of life, we violently object to it in others. I want to join a group that basically doesn't want me around??? Why would I ever consider doing that???? Now to me the only rationale for such activity is to dictate to that group one's own beliefs. I'm going to join a Christian group to make it something other than Christian? Yep, we call that DIVERSITY. I'm going to join any group and going to make it Christian? And then the fight begins....! Yep, we call that TERRORIST, HATE MONGERS.

 

I know such groups out there such as the NCCAP and KKK that promote certain principles, neither of which I am interested in being involved with. I have no desire to join either group, nor am I interested in disrupting their organizations by making them diverse. First of all I highly doubt whether it would do any good.

 

On the other hand I don't what what they are promoting to dictate to me. I leave them alone, they leave me alone. That seems fair to me. Basically I don't personally like to be associated with anything racist, one way or the other, for or against. Why? Because the first thing I must do is judge people based on race to know who's my friend and who isn't.

 

With all the fur flying, it's pretty hard to tell one hypocrite from another out there these days.

 

Stosh

Merlyn: Well, it sounds like a legal issue, not a race issue.

 

That's why the NAACP was started by people who were lawyers.

 

Does it really matter whether the victim is black, white, brown, red, yellow, blue or green?

 

Is it significant if all of the victims were black, and the perpetrators were white, and often members of law enforcement or the legal system?

 

If people are out there killing other people (even the reason why is not important) they need to be held accountable and at the very least, taken out of society and locked up for a long time.

 

Guess how hard it is when the sheriff is doing the lynching.

[Stosh]

It's kinda too bad that groups can no longer gather on similarities. Everything has to be diverse. While we promote this in certain aspects of life, we violently object to it in others. I want to join a group that basically doesn't want me around??? Why would I ever consider doing that???? Now to me the only rationale for such activity is to dictate to that group one's own beliefs. I'm going to join a Christian group to make it something other than Christian? Yep, we call that DIVERSITY. I'm going to join any group and going to make it Christian? And then the fight begins....! Yep, we call that TERRORIST, HATE MONGERS.

 

I know such groups out there such as the NCCAP and KKK that promote certain principles, neither of which I am interested in being involved with. I have no desire to join either group, nor am I interested in disrupting their organizations by making them diverse. First of all I highly doubt whether it would do any good.

 

On the other hand I don't what what they are promoting to dictate to me. I leave them alone, they leave me alone. That seems fair to me. Basically I don't personally like to be associated with anything racist, one way or the other, for or against. Why? Because the first thing I must do is judge people based on race to know who's my friend and who isn't.

 

With all the fur flying, it's pretty hard to tell one hypocrite from another out there these days.

 

Stosh

Merlyn: Well, it sounds like a legal issue, not a race issue.

That's why the NAACP was started by people who were lawyers.

 

And as you pointed out they were WHITE lawyers.

 

Does it really matter whether the victim is black, white, brown, red, yellow, blue or green?

Is it significant if all of the victims were black, and the perpetrators were white, and often members of law enforcement or the legal system?

Again, you point out the issue is about blacks.

 

If people are out there killing other people (even the reason why is not important) they need to be held accountable and at the very least, taken out of society and locked up for a long time.

Guess how hard it is when the sheriff is doing the lynching.

 

But of course the sheriff is WHITE and contrary to your comment, it might be difficult, but not impossible.

 

Sorry, but in everyone of my comments they had nothing to do with race, and everyone of our comments did. I don't care one iota about race, but you obviously do, so our conversation can be over.

 

Stosh

[Peregrinator]

I believe the Pope wears one as well' date=' and I have seen photos of Cardinals in the Catholic church wearing them, though I suspect they don't call them yarmulkes.[/quote']

 

Right, it is called the "zuchetto". I believe it originated as a way for clergy to cover their tonsure (the part of the head that is shaven) and has remained even though the tonsure has been more or less done away with.

 

Now you can all go back to your regularly scheduled discussion of Trail Life. About which I will say, basically I agree with you. The only situation in which I could see a Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist boy wanting to join Trail Life is if he were friends with a bunch of other boys who were joining, and even then I would expect most parents to try to steer their son toward an organization that was equally welcoming to all religions. (I know that's what I would do if I still had a son of Scout age.)

 

With what I've seen from Trail Life USA, I can say that as a Catholic I would not want my sons to join. It seems like it is basically a Protestant organization.

[DigitalScout]

It's kinda too bad that groups can no longer gather on similarities. Everything has to be diverse. While we promote this in certain aspects of life, we violently object to it in others. I want to join a group that basically doesn't want me around??? Why would I ever consider doing that???? Now to me the only rationale for such activity is to dictate to that group one's own beliefs. I'm going to join a Christian group to make it something other than Christian? Yep, we call that DIVERSITY. I'm going to join any group and going to make it Christian? And then the fight begins....! Yep, we call that TERRORIST, HATE MONGERS.

 

I know such groups out there such as the NCCAP and KKK that promote certain principles, neither of which I am interested in being involved with. I have no desire to join either group, nor am I interested in disrupting their organizations by making them diverse. First of all I highly doubt whether it would do any good.

 

On the other hand I don't what what they are promoting to dictate to me. I leave them alone, they leave me alone. That seems fair to me. Basically I don't personally like to be associated with anything racist, one way or the other, for or against. Why? Because the first thing I must do is judge people based on race to know who's my friend and who isn't.

 

With all the fur flying, it's pretty hard to tell one hypocrite from another out there these days.

 

Stosh

Fighting racism is everyone's moral responsibility. Maybe you don't want to get involved or feel it's not your fight. But your silence is what racists count on to flourish. Racism is everyone's problem. If you don't speak up against it, then your silence condones it.