Trail Life confused over who they are?????

[WAKWIB]

It's a pity that you folks make a bee-line to racism as soon as you hear the word Christian. I guess you all don't get out much.

[NJCubScouter]

Huzzar, I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that the name of your local Catholic youth basketball team is probably either something like St. Mary's (for example) Basketball Team or the CYO (Catholic Youth Organization) Basketball Team, or something else that tells the world, World, we're a Catholic-sponsored basketball team. Which doesn't mean there might not be a Jewish kid or Hindu kid on the team, but if the parents of the Jewish kid want to know why there is a game scheduled on Rosh Hashanah or no game scheduled on Easter, the answer is, look at the name of the team. The local Jewish synagogue may also have a basketball team, maybe its called the Beth Israel youth basketball team, and the parents of the one Catholic kid on the team shouldn't be surprised that maybe there is a game on Easter, and none on Rosh Hashanah. And so on and so forth.

 

Trail Life can name itself what it wants (within the bounds of intellectual property law, which doesn't appear to be a problem), but it is also legitimate to point out that nothing in the group's name suggests that adults need to sign on to a Trinitarian Christian statement of faith in order to be leaders. It also is legitimate to point out that the "open to all youth" is slightly disingenuous when the leaders have to conform to certain religious principles -- but hey, if they are a little disingenuous, maybe a little tricky or clever in their wording, well, they have a good role model (heh heh) in the current leadership of the BSA. In some ways they are being MORE honest than the BSA. As I have said a number of times over the years, while the BSA claims to be "absolutely nonsectarian", the fact is that the religions (or parts of religions) that have as part of their religious principles that gay people should NOT be excluded, are treated like "second-class" religions. (Examples would be Reform Judaism, United Church of Christ, many Episcopalian churches, some Methodist, some Presbyterian, etc.) The BSA will take your money, enroll you and your children as members, but when it comes to your unit's freedom to make decisions about who should be a leader, the BSA dictates that you obey the values-system of some OTHER religion, which on that issue are contrary to the beliefs of your own religion. This isn't advertised anywhere, it's just pointed out by troublemakers like me. (And yes, I continue to be a BSA leader, because I think the good still far outweighs the bad, and things will change someday.) And then some religions are really treated more like "third-class" religions, for example Wicca and UUA (at least in the past, not sure about currently.) At least Trail Life is a little more up front about it.

 

So, nobody's perfect. I wish Trail Life success within the sphere of what they are trying to be, and I hope the BSA will someday soon fully live up to the ideals that it represents. (And if that isn't clear enough for everybody, I think that means rescinding the ban on openly gay leaders.)

 

One thing I do have to say, in agreement with Eagledad and some others who have posted today -- there is NO evidence that Trail Life intends to discriminate on the basis of race. Let's not make those kinds of accusations based on a few photos of who was able to attend a particular event. If they do struggle to remain "demographically representative", well again, they do have a "role model" in the BSA.

[moosetracker]

I find it humorous that the folks that were pushing the conservatives out of the organization and now spending their time wringing their hands about the membership requirements of their new organization. You won folks! Congrats! Now, what are you doing for the new BSA? You all are like 60s radicals who spent their time fighting "the man" only to find out that they have become "the man" and don't know what to do anymore. Time to lead folks. Build a new beautiful diverse BSA and draw folks and money back into the fold. That's the promise, right?

I don't mind a church being able to kick out gays, if it is against their beliefs.. As long as other units can welcome them.. Don't care for the mandatory part of the half & half vote... Would have much preferred it just to go to local option for Adults & youth.. That was a half & half vote, but one more of us who don't need to poke our noses into other units business would have been able to live with..

 

but your right, were not happy yet, because we just got a change that made no one happy..

[DigitalScout]

Nobody said that Trail Life is a racist group. They seem like a live-and-let live organization and want to do their own thing which is all well and good. I was merely pointing out that they have set up a qualification system to guarantee a very homogeneous group. An outsider may not feel very welcome. And I think that is the intention.

[King Ding Dong]

It's a pity that you folks make a bee-line to racism as soon as you hear the word Christian. I guess you all don't get out much.

Yes it is a pity that happens. Unfortunately one need only look at the most vocal evangelical Christians to see why that happens. My grandfather was a Southern Baptist Missionary over a whole county of churches in Arkansas and I spent many summers down there with those folks. Nice people but racist with a capital R.

[DigitalScout]

I find it humourous that the silhouette on the patch looks like Iron Mike in front of Bldg 4 at Ft. Benning.

Follow me!

[WAKWIB]

It's a pity that you folks make a bee-line to racism as soon as you hear the word Christian. I guess you all don't get out much.

I would definitely buy part of your argument if this was 50 years ago. Now it's just an easy excuse to paint with a broad-brush.

[King Ding Dong]

Nobody said that Trail Life is a racist group. They seem like a live-and-let live organization and want to do their own thing which is all well and good. I was merely pointing out that they have set up a qualification system to guarantee a very homogeneous group. An outsider may not feel very welcome. And I think that is the intention.

Tribal Life USA

[qwazse]

It's a pity that you folks make a bee-line to racism as soon as you hear the word Christian. I guess you all don't get out much.

Unfortunately, I have experiences similar to KDD's that are much more recent.

[walk in the woods]

I find it humorous that the folks that were pushing the conservatives out of the organization and now spending their time wringing their hands about the membership requirements of their new organization. You won folks! Congrats! Now, what are you doing for the new BSA? You all are like 60s radicals who spent their time fighting "the man" only to find out that they have become "the man" and don't know what to do anymore. Time to lead folks. Build a new beautiful diverse BSA and draw folks and money back into the fold. That's the promise, right?

Yeah, sorry moose, not buying it. The reason the liberal wing of the BSA isn't happy is they weren't able to force their opinion of morality onto another group (sound familiar). And now, rather than move on and start building their new organization inside the BSA, there's a bunch of you sitting on this forum taking pot shots at TLUSA. Most of you are just flabbergasted that anybody would disagree and move on. The folks at TLUSA did exactly what they said they would do, they moved on. Time for the liberal wing of the BSA to do the same. BTW, TLUSA has created a new organization in 4 months. Has the BSA come out with it's updated YPT yet? Anybody want to be we won't see that until AFTER most units have to decide if they'll recharter or not this time around?

[moosetracker]

I find it humorous that the folks that were pushing the conservatives out of the organization and now spending their time wringing their hands about the membership requirements of their new organization. You won folks! Congrats! Now, what are you doing for the new BSA? You all are like 60s radicals who spent their time fighting "the man" only to find out that they have become "the man" and don't know what to do anymore. Time to lead folks. Build a new beautiful diverse BSA and draw folks and money back into the fold. That's the promise, right?

So you conservatives are suppose to leave BSA and build your conservative organization, and we liberals are also to leave BSA and build our Liberal organization and then those left in BSA are ??????????????? !... Nah, we liberals will stay in BSA and keep working on change, and less conservatives in it, means the liberal voice will now be louder and stronger.. So eventually all will be good, we are just not there yet..

 

See that is the difference between liberals and conservatives.. Liberals work for change.. Conservatives just quit what they don't like and start something that is there idea of utopia, until someone comes along and changes it.. Then they will quit again.. That is why all the States who want to succeed from the United States, and the counties that want to succeed from their states and form new states are all Republican.. You never hear the Democrats talk of succession, just about voting the bums out if they can't figure out the word compromise.

 

We will continue to plug away at making BSA a better place more open and inclusive.. But, we wont quit out of it, because it is not there yet.. We have optimistic hope, things can change.

 

By the way we laugh at those who want to succeed from their country or state also.. And if they ever succeeded (which I doubt).. We would probably study what they try to come up with for their new state/country... You guys are a good source of entertainment, as long as you are not dragging us under with you.

[Stosh]

It's kinda too bad that groups can no longer gather on similarities. Everything has to be diverse. While we promote this in certain aspects of life, we violently object to it in others. I want to join a group that basically doesn't want me around??? Why would I ever consider doing that???? Now to me the only rationale for such activity is to dictate to that group one's own beliefs. I'm going to join a Christian group to make it something other than Christian? Yep, we call that DIVERSITY. I'm going to join any group and going to make it Christian? And then the fight begins....! Yep, we call that TERRORIST, HATE MONGERS.

 

I know such groups out there such as the NCCAP and KKK that promote certain principles, neither of which I am interested in being involved with. I have no desire to join either group, nor am I interested in disrupting their organizations by making them diverse. First of all I highly doubt whether it would do any good.

 

On the other hand I don't what what they are promoting to dictate to me. I leave them alone, they leave me alone. That seems fair to me. Basically I don't personally like to be associated with anything racist, one way or the other, for or against. Why? Because the first thing I must do is judge people based on race to know who's my friend and who isn't.

 

With all the fur flying, it's pretty hard to tell one hypocrite from another out there these days.

 

Stosh

[moosetracker]

To an extent I agree with you jblake.. But, I think with BSA, it was that the group formed, then over the years the people in the group grew apart in beliefs on which path to take, so the division occured. Kindof a wake up call to Liberal when in the 1990's the conservatives created rules the liberals did not care for and started kicking people who were once welcomed out of BSA.. Then for 10 years we have been fighting with each other.. Got louder over the years as more people took on the liberal point of view and conservatives started to loose the battle.. Same battle is being waged in Churches now.. When the Conservatives have the upper hand, the Liberals just continue to fight for change.. When the liberals win the battle, the conservatives pick up their marbles and leave to create their newly formed Conservative church.. I don't see this changing..

 

It might take another 50 to 100 years, but this new TL organization (if it survives that long) will also start having members grow and have changing attitudes and will want those reflected in TL program, and thus the battle in TL will start up. It is the cycle of life and a long living organization takes on a life of it's own, it either evolves with time or becomes extinct.

 

[King Ding Dong]

It's kinda too bad that groups can no longer gather on similarities. Everything has to be diverse. While we promote this in certain aspects of life, we violently object to it in others. I want to join a group that basically doesn't want me around??? Why would I ever consider doing that???? Now to me the only rationale for such activity is to dictate to that group one's own beliefs. I'm going to join a Christian group to make it something other than Christian? Yep, we call that DIVERSITY. I'm going to join any group and going to make it Christian? And then the fight begins....! Yep, we call that TERRORIST, HATE MONGERS.

 

I know such groups out there such as the NCCAP and KKK that promote certain principles, neither of which I am interested in being involved with. I have no desire to join either group, nor am I interested in disrupting their organizations by making them diverse. First of all I highly doubt whether it would do any good.

 

On the other hand I don't what what they are promoting to dictate to me. I leave them alone, they leave me alone. That seems fair to me. Basically I don't personally like to be associated with anything racist, one way or the other, for or against. Why? Because the first thing I must do is judge people based on race to know who's my friend and who isn't.

 

With all the fur flying, it's pretty hard to tell one hypocrite from another out there these days.

 

Stosh

Um, I am understanding you correctly ? You don't want to be associated with anything that is against racism ?

[King Ding Dong]

I find it humorous that the folks that were pushing the conservatives out of the organization and now spending their time wringing their hands about the membership requirements of their new organization. You won folks! Congrats! Now, what are you doing for the new BSA? You all are like 60s radicals who spent their time fighting "the man" only to find out that they have become "the man" and don't know what to do anymore. Time to lead folks. Build a new beautiful diverse BSA and draw folks and money back into the fold. That's the promise, right?

DC, I still don't understand how the local option was forcing an opinion on morality on another group ? The proposed policy would have left the churches to do exactly what they were doing.