NeverAnEagle Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 As I wrote in the now missing thread, my belief is that their reason for leaving and creating their own group was not really about gays, but about non-sectarianism. The vote was the signal that their 20 year quest to turn the BSA into a conservative Christians first club (anyone can join, as long as they recognize that non-conservative Christians are second class members) had failed. I've been reading the forums on OnMyHonor.org and now the new web site, and the gay question is definitely secondary to the religion question. At least for most of the forum posters. Given what some of those posters had wrote (why we need to keep the dirty Muslims out, or why we shouldn't allow Jews), I'm glad those particular posters are leaving. And the lack of "I disagree" posts in response was disturbing (there were a few). But these were just forum posters, not arguments from the founders. I just hope it doesn't reflect the attitudes of the general membership. I personally think it was discussions like this, that became one of the reasons they deleted the old forums when they launched. As for the new organization as a whole, I wish them well. There is plenty of room in this world for good youth groups! wrong spot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverAnEagle Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 A good part of the success of the BSA is that historically any boy in America was able to join. But for the last several decades, as America has become more ethnically and culturally diverse and open, some very fundamentalist Christian groups have been trying to exclude more and more people from the BSA. Basically these groups want the BSA to be the same as it was in the 1950s. I don't see Trail Life USA becoming much more than another fringe scouting group. The BSA casts too large of a shadow. I live here: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informe...ve_hate_groups In addition to the active KKK groups listed above there are an additional 20 different white supremacy groups which hold active chapters in the USA, listed here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...#United_States Where do you live? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted September 17, 2013 Author Share Posted September 17, 2013 A good part of the success of the BSA is that historically any boy in America was able to join. But for the last several decades, as America has become more ethnically and culturally diverse and open, some very fundamentalist Christian groups have been trying to exclude more and more people from the BSA. Basically these groups want the BSA to be the same as it was in the 1950s. I don't see Trail Life USA becoming much more than another fringe scouting group. The BSA casts too large of a shadow. Da hood in a big city in middle america I would like to see some clan members or arien brotherhood stroll thru da hood. shame none of your links work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalScout Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 There is nothing to suggest that Trail Life will automatically become a "mighty whitey club.". The entire reason Trail Life USA was created was because they are sick of liberalism, multicultralism, political correctness and alternative lifestyles "being shoved down their throats." Who is left after they alienate the Hispanics, African-Americans, Jews, Asians, Mormons, Hindus, Sikhs, and Catholics? Someone here attended the formation conference. How many non-white, non-Christians were in the room? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosetracker Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Maybe with the other religions (maybe not).. But the gay thing is what BSA has been trying to pull for the last 10 years and it didn't work for them. Doubt it will work any better for TL.. With the other religions, I am not sure it will work either.. That's because if your an adult and not Christian, your son can come, but you as an adult can not be a leader.. Not sure how they put it.. Doubt they present it as the fact that they don't think anyone is of good moral standing if they are not Christian.. But reading the posts where the wolfs circled the LDS person who was insisting LDS was a Christian religion.. I got the feeling that is the truth of it.. Non-Christians are just as much sinners as homosexuals.. But, I would imagine other religions won't knock on their door, they will just stay away.. Religions really don't actively try to be accepted into organizations that are clearly for some other religion.. You don't see Jews insisting Christmas be open to all, or Baptist insisting that the yamaka be something everyone should be able to wear.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted September 17, 2013 Author Share Posted September 17, 2013 There is nothing to suggest that Trail Life will automatically become a "mighty whitey club.". The entire reason Trail Life USA was created was because they are sick of liberalism, multicultralism, political correctness and alternative lifestyles "being shoved down their throats." Who is left after they alienate the Hispanics, African-Americans, Jews, Asians, Mormons, Hindus, Sikhs, and Catholics? Someone here attended the formation conference. How many non-white, non-Christians were in the room? hmmm, sounds like roundtable....Less than 5 folks of any color than white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 There is nothing to suggest that Trail Life will automatically become a "mighty whitey club.". The entire reason Trail Life USA was created was because they are sick of liberalism, multicultralism, political correctness and alternative lifestyles "being shoved down their throats." Who is left after they alienate the Hispanics, African-Americans, Jews, Asians, Mormons, Hindus, Sikhs, and Catholics? Someone here attended the formation conference. How many non-white, non-Christians were in the room? Wasn't Huckabee there ? That pretty much tells you all you need to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted September 17, 2013 Author Share Posted September 17, 2013 Maybe with the other religions (maybe not).. But the gay thing is what BSA has been trying to pull for the last 10 years and it didn't work for them. Doubt it will work any better for TL.. With the other religions, I am not sure it will work either.. That's because if your an adult and not Christian, your son can come, but you as an adult can not be a leader.. Not sure how they put it.. Doubt they present it as the fact that they don't think anyone is of good moral standing if they are not Christian.. But reading the posts where the wolfs circled the LDS person who was insisting LDS was a Christian religion.. I got the feeling that is the truth of it.. Non-Christians are just as much sinners as homosexuals.. But, I would imagine other religions won't knock on their door, they will just stay away.. Religions really don't actively try to be accepted into organizations that are clearly for some other religion.. You don't see Jews insisting Christmas be open to all, or Baptist insisting that the yamaka be something everyone should be able to wear..See post 27... I think it sums up their stance pretty well..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 You don't see Jews insisting Christmas be open to all... Actually, the last time I looked there was no rule that Jewish people could not celebrate Christmas, and some Jewish people do to some degree, mostly the secular aspects of the holiday. I celebrate it too, but that doesn't count so much since my wife is a Catholic. ...or Baptist insisting that the yamaka be something everyone should be able to wear. First of all, it is "yarmulke", though you can't be faulted for spelling it phonetically. Second, anyone is allowed to wear one, though I suppose if you wear one in church that would be contrary to the general rule that you are supposed to have your head uncovered in church. A visiting Baptist man would be welcome to wear one in a synagogue. (For that matter, in many Reform synagogues a visiting Baptist woman would be ok wearing one too.) I believe the Pope wears one as well, and I have seen photos of Cardinals in the Catholic church wearing them, though I suspect they don't call them yarmulkes. And just for informational purposes, the majority of Jewish people (including me) do not wear one except at religious services or at other "religious times." For example I wear one when visiting the grave of my father and other Jewish relatives. Now you can all go back to your regularly scheduled discussion of Trail Life. About which I will say, basically I agree with you. The only situation in which I could see a Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist boy wanting to join Trail Life is if he were friends with a bunch of other boys who were joining, and even then I would expect most parents to try to steer their son toward an organization that was equally welcoming to all religions. (I know that's what I would do if I still had a son of Scout age.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosetracker Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Maybe with the other religions (maybe not).. But the gay thing is what BSA has been trying to pull for the last 10 years and it didn't work for them. Doubt it will work any better for TL.. With the other religions, I am not sure it will work either.. That's because if your an adult and not Christian, your son can come, but you as an adult can not be a leader.. Not sure how they put it.. Doubt they present it as the fact that they don't think anyone is of good moral standing if they are not Christian.. But reading the posts where the wolfs circled the LDS person who was insisting LDS was a Christian religion.. I got the feeling that is the truth of it.. Non-Christians are just as much sinners as homosexuals.. But, I would imagine other religions won't knock on their door, they will just stay away.. Religions really don't actively try to be accepted into organizations that are clearly for some other religion.. You don't see Jews insisting Christmas be open to all, or Baptist insisting that the yamaka be something everyone should be able to wear..So is that statement of everyone having to except JC as their Lord & Savior.. A real statement in their rules, or is that just someone reading between the lines what they put in their rules.. That's truly laughable if that is the actual statement in writing.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Maybe with the other religions (maybe not).. But the gay thing is what BSA has been trying to pull for the last 10 years and it didn't work for them. Doubt it will work any better for TL.. With the other religions, I am not sure it will work either.. That's because if your an adult and not Christian, your son can come, but you as an adult can not be a leader.. Not sure how they put it.. Doubt they present it as the fact that they don't think anyone is of good moral standing if they are not Christian.. But reading the posts where the wolfs circled the LDS person who was insisting LDS was a Christian religion.. I got the feeling that is the truth of it.. Non-Christians are just as much sinners as homosexuals.. But, I would imagine other religions won't knock on their door, they will just stay away.. Religions really don't actively try to be accepted into organizations that are clearly for some other religion.. You don't see Jews insisting Christmas be open to all, or Baptist insisting that the yamaka be something everyone should be able to wear.."“We believe that there is One Triune God – Father, Jesus Christ His one and only Son, and the Holy Spirit – Creator of the universe and eternally existent. We believe the Holy Scriptures (Old and New Testaments) to be the inspired and authoritative Word of God. We believe each person is created in His image for the purpose of communing with and worshipping God. We believe in the ministry of the Holy Spirit who enables us to live a Godly life. We believe that each individual is called to love the Lord their God with all their heart, mind, soul and strength; and to love their neighbors as themselves. We believe that each individual is called to live a life of purity, service, stewardship and integrity.†- See more at: http://www.traillifeusa.com/who-we-are/values/statement-of-faith-values/#sthash.Kdqe9V9S.dpuf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosetracker Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 You don't see Jews insisting Christmas be open to all... Actually, the last time I looked there was no rule that Jewish people could not celebrate Christmas, and some Jewish people do to some degree, mostly the secular aspects of the holiday. I celebrate it too, but that doesn't count so much since my wife is a Catholic. ...or Baptist insisting that the yamaka be something everyone should be able to wear. First of all, it is "yarmulke", though you can't be faulted for spelling it phonetically. Second, anyone is allowed to wear one, though I suppose if you wear one in church that would be contrary to the general rule that you are supposed to have your head uncovered in church. A visiting Baptist man would be welcome to wear one in a synagogue. (For that matter, in many Reform synagogues a visiting Baptist woman would be ok wearing one too.) I believe the Pope wears one as well, and I have seen photos of Cardinals in the Catholic church wearing them, though I suspect they don't call them yarmulkes. And just for informational purposes, the majority of Jewish people (including me) do not wear one except at religious services or at other "religious times." For example I wear one when visiting the grave of my father and other Jewish relatives. Now you can all go back to your regularly scheduled discussion of Trail Life. About which I will say, basically I agree with you. The only situation in which I could see a Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist boy wanting to join Trail Life is if he were friends with a bunch of other boys who were joining, and even then I would expect most parents to try to steer their son toward an organization that was equally welcoming to all religions. (I know that's what I would do if I still had a son of Scout age.) Picky, Picky, Picky... And that shows me to not go and look up the spelling of something on the internet.. I didn't trust myself to spell it right, so I looked it up and then got it wrong.. I did know that most of you don't wear it outside of church, because I know several Jews and they don't wear it all the time.. Anyway you know what I am getting to, People of different faiths don't go around forcing entry into other religion unless they feel welcomed, certain things they will be welcomed and join in.. But, they wont insist on doing something that will be frowned upon by either their group or the other group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosetracker Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 Maybe with the other religions (maybe not).. But the gay thing is what BSA has been trying to pull for the last 10 years and it didn't work for them. Doubt it will work any better for TL.. With the other religions, I am not sure it will work either.. That's because if your an adult and not Christian, your son can come, but you as an adult can not be a leader.. Not sure how they put it.. Doubt they present it as the fact that they don't think anyone is of good moral standing if they are not Christian.. But reading the posts where the wolfs circled the LDS person who was insisting LDS was a Christian religion.. I got the feeling that is the truth of it.. Non-Christians are just as much sinners as homosexuals.. But, I would imagine other religions won't knock on their door, they will just stay away.. Religions really don't actively try to be accepted into organizations that are clearly for some other religion.. You don't see Jews insisting Christmas be open to all, or Baptist insisting that the yamaka be something everyone should be able to wear..Hmmmm... I thought they said the program wasn't going to be "churchy".. So although a correct interpretation, I take it the info in post 27, Basement showed me is "reading between the lines". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 Maybe with the other religions (maybe not).. But the gay thing is what BSA has been trying to pull for the last 10 years and it didn't work for them. Doubt it will work any better for TL.. With the other religions, I am not sure it will work either.. That's because if your an adult and not Christian, your son can come, but you as an adult can not be a leader.. Not sure how they put it.. Doubt they present it as the fact that they don't think anyone is of good moral standing if they are not Christian.. But reading the posts where the wolfs circled the LDS person who was insisting LDS was a Christian religion.. I got the feeling that is the truth of it.. Non-Christians are just as much sinners as homosexuals.. But, I would imagine other religions won't knock on their door, they will just stay away.. Religions really don't actively try to be accepted into organizations that are clearly for some other religion.. You don't see Jews insisting Christmas be open to all, or Baptist insisting that the yamaka be something everyone should be able to wear.."Reading between the lines" or "code" difference without a distinction. Their creed has nod been "finalized" Proposed Membership Standards for Trail Life USA Membership in the program has both youth and adult elements. Youth membership in the program is open to all who meet the membership requirements, and is currently designed for biologically male children under the age of 18. The adult applicant must also be at least 18 years of age and subscribe to and abide by the statement of Christian faith and the Oath and Creed of the program (currently being finalized). While the program is undergirded by Biblical values and unapologetically reflects a Christian worldview, there is also a clearly defined inclusion policy for youth. Accordingly, all boys are welcome irrespective of religion, race, national origin or socio-economic status. Our goal is for parents and families of every faith to be able to place their boys in a youth program that endeavors to provide moral consistency and ethical integrity in its adult leaders. Charter partners own and operate local groups, selecting leaders and admitting members as they deem beneficial to their group and within the parameters of the national policy. The basis for the program’s ethical and moral standards are found in the Bible. In terms of sexual identification and behavior, we affirm that any sexual activity outside the context of the covenant of marriage between one man and one woman is sinful before God and therefore inconsistent with the values and principles of the program. Within these limits, we grant membership to adults and youth who do not engage in or promote sexual immorality of any kind, or engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the program. We welcome boys whose parents are seeking a faith-based outdoor adventure program that places an emphasis on character development, leadership, and moral purity, and who aspire to live in accordance with the values expressed in the program’s Oath and Creed. - See more at: http://www.traillifeusa.com/who-we-are/values/membership-standards/#sthash.RsdnyAkJ.dpuf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalScout Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 After reading the TLUSA forums it is a conservative Christian scouting program open to everyone (wink, wink) but will only be charted through conservative Christian churches (those that still ban gay ministers and members). TLUSA leaders must believe in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity and be pure (permitted to have sex only if they are married and only with their biological-correct spouse of the opposite sex). They are essentially the boy version of American Heritage Girls and have even partnered up with AHG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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