Trail Life confused over who they are?????

[NJCubScouter]

The dude running On My Honor was talking about BSA's "don't ask' date=' don't tell" policy. OK, BSA didn't have one but that's what they're running with.[/quote']

 

 

 

BSA didn't have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy? It did, and it does right now, and will continue to have a don't ask, don't tell policy for adult leaders. The policy for youths WAS either don't ask, don't tell or a sort of modified version of it, and there were contradictory statements about exactly what the policy was for youths. It is clear that as of Jan. 1, 2014 (which is, not coincidentally, the official "start" date for Trail Life) the policy will no longer be don't ask, don't tell for youths, but it will continue to be so for adults.

 

Personally I don't think that whether someone gets to be (or remain) a leader should depend on whether someone else has an "axe to grind." And in the Dale case, for example, it's not even clear whether anyone actually had an "axe to grind" or whether someone at the council office saw the newspaper article in which Dale was identified as a member of a gay students' group at his college (in a newspaper that circulates throughout New Jersey), and gave it to the SE who wrote the termination letter. If the latter is the case, it seems more like the SE was enforcing a national policy than anything else. But I suppose this is mostly a matter of semantics, so I will let you have the last word on it if you wish.

[King Ding Dong]

dcsimmons - I for one are happy to see them go, but still curious.. It's just the human nature of morbid curiosity.. I certainly wish them luck, but I don't see how.. I was curious about their rules against LDS, as although the religion is not my cup of tea, I always thought they were Christian.. I also thought they were pretty much in agreement with them on the homosexual issue.. I got to some forum thread where a woman from LDS tried to point out why they were Christian and a lot of people tore her religion to shreds..

 

I know we have also have discussed some frustration with LDS, but for the most part it is either because they don't mingle with us, or don't follow the normal BSA program. Pretty much disagreements on how we see BSA with how they see BSA.. I don't know of any time when we ripped their religion apart, because they follow not only the Bible, but the book of Mormons which makes them not Christian although they believe in Jesus Christ, but not the same way, so they are not Christian.. Blah, Blah..

 

Hmmmm... Well they may say they are Christian but welcome other religions, but if your another religion, I wouldn't recommend it, unless you want to be shot, stuffed and cooked for dinner..

BSA is definitely better off without the people who were on that forum. But how they are going to be welcoming enough to increase in numbers, is a mystery to me.

Maybe BP used wagons to build citizens of character and leaders of integrity but I doubt he used laser tag.

[Eagledad]

dcsimmons - I for one are happy to see them go, but still curious.. It's just the human nature of morbid curiosity.. I certainly wish them luck, but I don't see how.. I was curious about their rules against LDS, as although the religion is not my cup of tea, I always thought they were Christian.. I also thought they were pretty much in agreement with them on the homosexual issue.. I got to some forum thread where a woman from LDS tried to point out why they were Christian and a lot of people tore her religion to shreds..

 

I know we have also have discussed some frustration with LDS, but for the most part it is either because they don't mingle with us, or don't follow the normal BSA program. Pretty much disagreements on how we see BSA with how they see BSA.. I don't know of any time when we ripped their religion apart, because they follow not only the Bible, but the book of Mormons which makes them not Christian although they believe in Jesus Christ, but not the same way, so they are not Christian.. Blah, Blah..

 

Hmmmm... Well they may say they are Christian but welcome other religions, but if your another religion, I wouldn't recommend it, unless you want to be shot, stuffed and cooked for dinner..

BSA is definitely better off without the people who were on that forum. But how they are going to be welcoming enough to increase in numbers, is a mystery to me.

Well guys whatever the program calls itself, if these folks can do a better job for the boys at achieving the same goals, you have to agree it's the right program for them. As for the laser tag restriction, I think that should be discussed in the "is scouting too sissy" discussion.

[King Ding Dong]

dcsimmons - I for one are happy to see them go, but still curious.. It's just the human nature of morbid curiosity.. I certainly wish them luck, but I don't see how.. I was curious about their rules against LDS, as although the religion is not my cup of tea, I always thought they were Christian.. I also thought they were pretty much in agreement with them on the homosexual issue.. I got to some forum thread where a woman from LDS tried to point out why they were Christian and a lot of people tore her religion to shreds..

 

I know we have also have discussed some frustration with LDS, but for the most part it is either because they don't mingle with us, or don't follow the normal BSA program. Pretty much disagreements on how we see BSA with how they see BSA.. I don't know of any time when we ripped their religion apart, because they follow not only the Bible, but the book of Mormons which makes them not Christian although they believe in Jesus Christ, but not the same way, so they are not Christian.. Blah, Blah..

 

Hmmmm... Well they may say they are Christian but welcome other religions, but if your another religion, I wouldn't recommend it, unless you want to be shot, stuffed and cooked for dinner..

BSA is definitely better off without the people who were on that forum. But how they are going to be welcoming enough to increase in numbers, is a mystery to me.

It is "prissy".

[Eagledad]

dcsimmons - I for one are happy to see them go, but still curious.. It's just the human nature of morbid curiosity.. I certainly wish them luck, but I don't see how.. I was curious about their rules against LDS, as although the religion is not my cup of tea, I always thought they were Christian.. I also thought they were pretty much in agreement with them on the homosexual issue.. I got to some forum thread where a woman from LDS tried to point out why they were Christian and a lot of people tore her religion to shreds..

 

I know we have also have discussed some frustration with LDS, but for the most part it is either because they don't mingle with us, or don't follow the normal BSA program. Pretty much disagreements on how we see BSA with how they see BSA.. I don't know of any time when we ripped their religion apart, because they follow not only the Bible, but the book of Mormons which makes them not Christian although they believe in Jesus Christ, but not the same way, so they are not Christian.. Blah, Blah..

 

Hmmmm... Well they may say they are Christian but welcome other religions, but if your another religion, I wouldn't recommend it, unless you want to be shot, stuffed and cooked for dinner..

BSA is definitely better off without the people who were on that forum. But how they are going to be welcoming enough to increase in numbers, is a mystery to me.

Then we agree, but let's not discuss it here and highjack the thread.

[Basementdweller]

The dude running On My Honor was talking about BSA's "don't ask' date=' don't tell" policy. OK, BSA didn't have one but that's what they're running with.[/quote']

 

 

 

BSA didn't have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy? It did, and it does right now, and will continue to have a don't ask, don't tell policy for adult leaders. The policy for youths WAS either don't ask, don't tell or a sort of modified version of it, and there were contradictory statements about exactly what the policy was for youths. It is clear that as of Jan. 1, 2014 (which is, not coincidentally, the official "start" date for Trail Life) the policy will no longer be don't ask, don't tell for youths, but it will continue to be so for adults.

 

How many gay scouters and scouts have been turned into the man for vengeance....

[Rick_in_CA]

As I wrote in the now missing thread, my belief is that their reason for leaving and creating their own group was not really about gays, but about non-sectarianism. The vote was the signal that their 20 year quest to turn the BSA into a conservative Christians first club (anyone can join, as long as they recognize that non-conservative Christians are second class members) had failed. I've been reading the forums on OnMyHonor.org and now the new web site, and the gay question is definitely secondary to the religion question. At least for most of the forum posters. Given what some of those posters had wrote (why we need to keep the dirty Muslims out, or why we shouldn't allow Jews), I'm glad those particular posters are leaving. And the lack of "I disagree" posts in response was disturbing (there were a few). But these were just forum posters, not arguments from the founders. I just hope it doesn't reflect the attitudes of the general membership. I personally think it was discussions like this, that became one of the reasons they deleted the old forums when they launched.

 

As for the new organization as a whole, I wish them well. There is plenty of room in this world for good youth groups!

[duckfoot]

As I wrote in the now missing thread, my belief is that their reason for leaving and creating their own group was not really about gays, but about non-sectarianism. The vote was the signal that their 20 year quest to turn the BSA into a conservative Christians first club (anyone can join, as long as they recognize that non-conservative Christians are second class members) had failed. I've been reading the forums on OnMyHonor.org and now the new web site, and the gay question is definitely secondary to the religion question. At least for most of the forum posters. Given what some of those posters had wrote (why we need to keep the dirty Muslims out, or why we shouldn't allow Jews), I'm glad those particular posters are leaving. And the lack of "I disagree" posts in response was disturbing (there were a few). But these were just forum posters, not arguments from the founders. I just hope it doesn't reflect the attitudes of the general membership. I personally think it was discussions like this, that became one of the reasons they deleted the old forums when they launched.

 

As for the new organization as a whole, I wish them well. There is plenty of room in this world for good youth groups!

Obviously the diversity goal of their ticket didn't take.

[JoeBob]

Heard an hour long discussion about Trail Life on the radio Saturday. At first I thought I was listening to the usual media sniping at the BSA, but then I realized that I had tuned to a Christian radio station. They were trying to sell the new program as a more pure version of what we old-timers remember from our scouting youth. If they focus on the outdoors and scout skills, they may fill the vacuum that Irving has created.

 

Someone posted that Trail Life won't have 'Eagle' as a draw. 'Eagle' has become so dilute that I'm not sure that its value on a resume will continue to be a positive; in fact 'Eagle' may brand you as a homophobe in some eyes.

[Twocubdad]

Two thoughts:

 

The greatest obstacle to TL's success seems to be it's attempt to eat the elephant in one bite. Clearly they are in a "strike while the iron is hot" moment, but attempting to recreate a program as broad as BSA in six months seems far fetched, even without the camps and HA bases. My sons attended a charter school which started all 13 grades over two years. It was a disaster. It took them five years -- the entire time my sons were at the school -- to BEGIN to get their act together. And that was with a paid staff and standardized curriculum. I wouldn't recommend the approach. Perhaps they are counting on the former BSA units coasting along for several years on auto pilot with very little operational difference or assistance/meddling from the national organization. Perhaps that's part of the appeal.

 

Secondly, I'm very curious to watch BSA's response. My guess is they will ignore the existence of TL, which would be the typical response of a hide-bound, navel-gazing bureaucracy BSA has become. Think IBM and the PC clones or Detroit and the Japanese auto makers. I wondered in the thread about the dues increase how long BSA can continue to tick off and ignore various parts of it's base without those parts adding up. We may be about to find out. Does BSA continue to listen to the self-selected sycophants or will it finally realize we malcontent peasants with pitch forks are paying members too? Maybe it takes TL some time to get it's act and message together, but tapping into the discontent over BSA's every-growing bureaucracy would be a brilliant strategic move.

 

Frankly, I think it's going to get bad for BSA. I doubt any of their worst-case predictions from the spring included the prospect of a viable alternative program. What do you want to bet that at year-end we get a rosy annual report noting that the losses have been smaller than expected -- ignoring the fact that most losses will hit in 1Q of next year. It's a small sample, but in our little corner of the district, we're losing two units to TL. One was as good as gone as soon as the vote was taken. The other was looking to jump COs, but is now going to move to TL instead. We're losing two more just to "natural causes." That four out of 10 troops in the area and it's been YEARS since we had a new troop form. It ain't looking good.

 

[DigitalScout]

A good part of the success of the BSA is that historically any boy in America was able to join. But for the last several decades, as America has become more ethnically and culturally diverse and open, some very fundamentalist Christian groups have been trying to exclude more and more people from the BSA. Basically these groups want the BSA to be the same as it was in the 1950s.

 

I don't see Trail Life USA becoming much more than another fringe scouting group. The BSA casts too large of a shadow.

[Eagledad]

A good part of the success of the BSA is that historically any boy in America was able to join. But for the last several decades, as America has become more ethnically and culturally diverse and open, some very fundamentalist Christian groups have been trying to exclude more and more people from the BSA. Basically these groups want the BSA to be the same as it was in the 1950s.

 

I don't see Trail Life USA becoming much more than another fringe scouting group. The BSA casts too large of a shadow.

Culturally and ethnically diverse youth had a lot more opportunities today with the BSA than in the 1950s. Followers of activism were warned and have historical evidence that forcing moral diversity on values baised programs would be liken to throwing out the baby with the bath water. But Activist have their own scortched earth agenda and the followers are sheep who are led by emotion. Trail Life is a logical conclusion for creating a program where none other exist. I don't know much about the program, but the few folks I know considering it will except all culturally and ethnically diverse boys. But they will still be choosy about the adult roll models who lead these young men. Barry

[JoeBob]

But Activist have their own scorched earth agenda and the followers are sheep who are led by emotion

 

I thought you were talking about Irving cramming political correctness down our throats.

[WAKWIB]

Concerning the program of Trail Life, one press release points to this gentleman:

 

"John Burkitt Considered by many to be one of the greatest Boy Scout historians alive today having compared, studied and analyzed every Boy Scout, Cub Scout and Scoutmaster handbook ever published from the original Baden Powell’s “Scouting for Boys†to the present. John has served as the primary editor and author of the first edition of the Adventuring handbook that will be used in the Trail Life USA program." (my note: Adventuring is the program for grades 9-12)

 

His name rings absolutely no bells for me. I was curious if any of you folks have heard of him.

[NeverAnEagle]

As I wrote in the now missing thread, my belief is that their reason for leaving and creating their own group was not really about gays, but about non-sectarianism. The vote was the signal that their 20 year quest to turn the BSA into a conservative Christians first club (anyone can join, as long as they recognize that non-conservative Christians are second class members) had failed. I've been reading the forums on OnMyHonor.org and now the new web site, and the gay question is definitely secondary to the religion question. At least for most of the forum posters. Given what some of those posters had wrote (why we need to keep the dirty Muslims out, or why we shouldn't allow Jews), I'm glad those particular posters are leaving. And the lack of "I disagree" posts in response was disturbing (there were a few). But these were just forum posters, not arguments from the founders. I just hope it doesn't reflect the attitudes of the general membership. I personally think it was discussions like this, that became one of the reasons they deleted the old forums when they launched.

 

As for the new organization as a whole, I wish them well. There is plenty of room in this world for good youth groups!

Duckfoot: ROFLMAO!

Diversity? In Scouting? Where???? (We need to know so we can put a stop to that!)

 

If by "ticket" you are referring to Wood Badge, then no, I didn't see real diversity or diversity training. The diversity section of my WB course said to include multiple GENERATIONS, not colors, ethnicity, religions, etc. There was small mention of interacting with "other" socioeconomic groups as well (A.K.A. the poor) but not to much interaction, the poverty could rub off! The LDS hold their own events so as not to mix with the others, because they aren't "real Christians" you know. Of course the protestants don't want to mix with the Catholics because they aren't "real Christians" either and everyone hates the Methodists; they may as well be devil worshipers.

 

If I take my son and my father fishing on the same day sure we have multiple generations, but seeing as we're all middle-class white guys with the same religious views; I wouldn't necessarily call it diversity.

 

I'm happy their gone, I just wish they'd take a few more with them.