Trail Life confused over who they are?????

[WAKWIB]

Yah, hmmm...

 

I don't reckon they're confused. It's da old BSA don't ask, don't tell policy for youth, coupled with a Christian mission for both youth and adults. I think Sentinel947 has da right of it. Trail Life is tappin' into a population that has been disenchanted with da BSA for a variety of reasons, and the membership change was just the last straw. If they build a good program, maybe a bit less G2SS crazed, maybe a bit less paperwork, maybe a bit more outdoor sportsman focused than da BSA, they could become a bigger draw. Just depends.

 

Close as I can tell da initial group was pretty evangelical, but as they've grown it's become more moderate. Might eventually offer da BSA some competition in many areas in da country.

 

I'd lilove to be a fly on the wall for liablity protection discussions.

 

Yah, not sure why yeh think this is goin' to be that hard, Tampa Turtle. Liability insurance is a commodity item, and da general rules for the game are pretty well known. I don't know who's workin' with 'em, but they seem to have da resources and expertise to handle that sort of routine stuff without a problem.

 

Beavah

They don't appear to be confused at all. They have a clear and publicly available membership policy, which seems to be pretty inclusive in regards to youth.

 

Their Statement of Faith which is signed off on by adult leaders and the CO is clear and precise, as opposed to a vague Declaration of Religious Principle. Yes, that Statement is firmly Christian in the sense of that word as it is understood by catholics, protestants, and evangelicals.

 

Their program was "stormed and formed" by a group of about 50 experienced Scouters with a strong sense of traditional Scouting. I heard in an interview that these folks worked nearly every night since March via virtual campfire on this project. It's not going to be another Awana or Royal Rangers.

 

Organizationally, they will be very lean and focused on direct service to their members and units.

 

They have generated a very energized and excited base of potential members.

 

It is clear that, for a particular market, this could be a very significant and successful youth-serving organization.

[WAKWIB]

I wonder what the membership fee is going to be.....

 

Let me see 18 paid staff members say 10k scouts to start with....main guy knocking down 100k, Thinking pay roll of a million bucks....

 

With out donations. That is 100 bucks a head, just to make payroll.

Membership fee for adults and youth= $26/year

[moosetracker]

dcsimmons - I for one are happy to see them go, but still curious.. It's just the human nature of morbid curiosity.. I certainly wish them luck, but I don't see how.. I was curious about their rules against LDS, as although the religion is not my cup of tea, I always thought they were Christian.. I also thought they were pretty much in agreement with them on the homosexual issue.. I got to some forum thread where a woman from LDS tried to point out why they were Christian and a lot of people tore her religion to shreds..

 

I know we have also have discussed some frustration with LDS, but for the most part it is either because they don't mingle with us, or don't follow the normal BSA program. Pretty much disagreements on how we see BSA with how they see BSA.. I don't know of any time when we ripped their religion apart, because they follow not only the Bible, but the book of Mormons which makes them not Christian although they believe in Jesus Christ, but not the same way, so they are not Christian.. Blah, Blah..

 

Hmmmm... Well they may say they are Christian but welcome other religions, but if your another religion, I wouldn't recommend it, unless you want to be shot, stuffed and cooked for dinner..

BSA is definitely better off without the people who were on that forum. But how they are going to be welcoming enough to increase in numbers, is a mystery to me.

[qwazse]

I think this boils down to adult egos.....

Got a link? (Yeah, I know, they disappear almost as fast as you read them,)

 

It's actually a really good idea. My chuch's young adult ministry has an outdoor component, and it seems to be one of the factors enabling college graduates to stick with us, or folks from out of town to find us. But with us, there is no upper age limit.

[WAKWIB]

I think this boils down to adult egos.....

The link to the home page is:

 

http://www.traillifeusa.com

 

You will find a chart of the different age programs here:

 

http://www.traillifeusa.com/resources

 

They have not published most details yet, but is should be coming out in the weeks ahead.

[King Ding Dong]

I wonder if they need to be big to be successful. Do they really need to be "BSA like" ? BSA camp properties are convenient and cheap for many of us, not for others. There is not much that they offer that cannot be found from private outfitters, although with generally a higher cost. They likely can't put together offerings like Jaboree and HA Bases, but they certainly could pull off smaller gatherings like regional festivals with Christian rock bands and the such. 90 percent or so of BSA scouting is really at the troop, patrol(sometimes), pack and den level anyway. If they really fashion it like Kudu's style without trailers and all the trappings that brings, unit startup costs would be minimal. Fundamentalists have proven their ability to raise money and support youth activities that they deem as worthy. They will not have the Brand of Eagle Scout that keeps many in the BSA, but they won't have the bloated bureaucracy, complex rules and all the other baggage. They may do just fine in their eyes as a much smaller organization. I have seen some references to other youth group organizations like Royal Rangers that have allegedly failed, but they still seem to exist at some level. Does size make successful organization. Many here would argue size does not define a successful troop or pack.

[Basementdweller]

I wonder if they need to be big to be successful. Do they really need to be "BSA like" ? BSA camp properties are convenient and cheap for many of us, not for others. There is not much that they offer that cannot be found from private outfitters, although with generally a higher cost. They likely can't put together offerings like Jaboree and HA Bases, but they certainly could pull off smaller gatherings like regional festivals with Christian rock bands and the such. 90 percent or so of BSA scouting is really at the troop, patrol(sometimes), pack and den level anyway. If they really fashion it like Kudu's style without trailers and all the trappings that brings, unit startup costs would be minimal. Fundamentalists have proven their ability to raise money and support youth activities that they deem as worthy. They will not have the Brand of Eagle Scout that keeps many in the BSA, but they won't have the bloated bureaucracy, complex rules and all the other baggage. They may do just fine in their eyes as a much smaller organization. I have seen some references to other youth group organizations like Royal Rangers that have allegedly failed, but they still seem to exist at some level. Does size make successful organization. Many here would argue size does not define a successful troop or pack.

How to view success......

 

In a city of a million and a half there are three royal ranger units.....All in wealthy suburbs.

 

 

I guess many of us are caught up in the BIG picture of national and councils and camp properties and high adventure bases..........

 

What about the small picture, the unit. Are they enjoying the program? how is the program???

 

If old TL is talking about how outdoorsy they are gonna be........why is that????

 

Terrible local programs............Too much overhead, Troops that are too large, too much gear and giant trailers..........

 

I am beginning to think that even a troop of 36 is too large.......Patrol campouts.....Two patrols at a time that would keep the number to less than 20.

[Pack18Alex]

I wonder if they need to be big to be successful. Do they really need to be "BSA like" ? BSA camp properties are convenient and cheap for many of us, not for others. There is not much that they offer that cannot be found from private outfitters, although with generally a higher cost. They likely can't put together offerings like Jaboree and HA Bases, but they certainly could pull off smaller gatherings like regional festivals with Christian rock bands and the such. 90 percent or so of BSA scouting is really at the troop, patrol(sometimes), pack and den level anyway. If they really fashion it like Kudu's style without trailers and all the trappings that brings, unit startup costs would be minimal. Fundamentalists have proven their ability to raise money and support youth activities that they deem as worthy. They will not have the Brand of Eagle Scout that keeps many in the BSA, but they won't have the bloated bureaucracy, complex rules and all the other baggage. They may do just fine in their eyes as a much smaller organization. I have seen some references to other youth group organizations like Royal Rangers that have allegedly failed, but they still seem to exist at some level. Does size make successful organization. Many here would argue size does not define a successful troop or pack.

Very few of the Scouts (percentage wise) in BSA are eligible for high adventure (which does take money). The majority of "traditional scouting" members are Cub Scouts learning patriotism and doing arts and crafts project.

 

If they provide a system that attracts young families with something of value, and the occaisional regional festival, that's enough. For the few that want more "high adventure," nothing stops them from kicking in $25/person to BSA for the year for insurance and registering as a crew with access to ALL BSA "stuff" without the need for uniforms, badges, and all the other costs of being a "real" Scout. If you want a high adventure program, $25/year is a drop in the bucket, a 1st Grade Tiger that continues through Eagle Scout and Venturing until age 20 will only spend a fraction of their time actually doing high adventure, let alone at a BSA facility.

 

Our local BSA camps are available to outsiders, they pay an extra $2-$3/person for the privilege, but everything is there.

[Pack18Alex]

dcsimmons - I for one are happy to see them go, but still curious.. It's just the human nature of morbid curiosity.. I certainly wish them luck, but I don't see how.. I was curious about their rules against LDS, as although the religion is not my cup of tea, I always thought they were Christian.. I also thought they were pretty much in agreement with them on the homosexual issue.. I got to some forum thread where a woman from LDS tried to point out why they were Christian and a lot of people tore her religion to shreds..

 

I know we have also have discussed some frustration with LDS, but for the most part it is either because they don't mingle with us, or don't follow the normal BSA program. Pretty much disagreements on how we see BSA with how they see BSA.. I don't know of any time when we ripped their religion apart, because they follow not only the Bible, but the book of Mormons which makes them not Christian although they believe in Jesus Christ, but not the same way, so they are not Christian.. Blah, Blah..

 

Hmmmm... Well they may say they are Christian but welcome other religions, but if your another religion, I wouldn't recommend it, unless you want to be shot, stuffed and cooked for dinner..

BSA is definitely better off without the people who were on that forum. But how they are going to be welcoming enough to increase in numbers, is a mystery to me.

As a Jewish Scouter, I have no bone to pick in Mormons vs. Protestants vs. Catholics... and selfishly happy that the traditional ire between Protestants and Catholics (and jointly towards Jews) have found other groups to pick on.

 

I wish them luck.

 

I want to go back to making posters to do belt loops and earning Cub Scout Awards, really not interested in talking about gay people.

 

I grasp the LDS "problem" with a gay Scoutmaster, just as GSUSA would never let me be the leader for a GS Troop (I can be a co-leader but need a female leader with me for EVERYTHING). But I'm not entirely sure why this issue can't be resolved at the CO level where the issue is ONE position in SOME units, and instead prohibits me from having a Gay or Lesbian Pack Committee member.

[Eagledad]

dcsimmons - I for one are happy to see them go, but still curious.. It's just the human nature of morbid curiosity.. I certainly wish them luck, but I don't see how.. I was curious about their rules against LDS, as although the religion is not my cup of tea, I always thought they were Christian.. I also thought they were pretty much in agreement with them on the homosexual issue.. I got to some forum thread where a woman from LDS tried to point out why they were Christian and a lot of people tore her religion to shreds..

 

I know we have also have discussed some frustration with LDS, but for the most part it is either because they don't mingle with us, or don't follow the normal BSA program. Pretty much disagreements on how we see BSA with how they see BSA.. I don't know of any time when we ripped their religion apart, because they follow not only the Bible, but the book of Mormons which makes them not Christian although they believe in Jesus Christ, but not the same way, so they are not Christian.. Blah, Blah..

 

Hmmmm... Well they may say they are Christian but welcome other religions, but if your another religion, I wouldn't recommend it, unless you want to be shot, stuffed and cooked for dinner..

BSA is definitely better off without the people who were on that forum. But how they are going to be welcoming enough to increase in numbers, is a mystery to me.

Your answer Moose may be that it's less about religion and more about freedom and independence to run youth camping scout program. I've talk to a few leaders, who I respect a lot for their boy run program, that are looking at this program with curiosity because they are tired of the burdemsome paperwork and silly restrictions like lazer tag and wagons that take away from building citizens of character and leaders of integrity. Some folks just want to do good scouting and feel that National is gradually pulling them away from it. Barry

[Huzzar]

Exactly my sentiments, dcsimmons, they said they'd leave and they did. I don't see anything inherently contradictory in their new rules either. The dude running On My Honor was talking about BSA's "don't ask, don't tell" policy. OK, BSA didn't have one but that's what they're running with. The "biological boy" rule is probably as much to do with GSUSA letting a boy that identifies as a girl into a troop as it does bizarre interpretations of the new BSA membership standard.

 

They might have a good number of people interested in joining them but they still have a long row to hoe. AHG is still very small and they've been at it for a while now.

 

For me, it will be interesting to see if membership numbers for BSA drop after this year's rechartering and how FoS numbers look this year. Both are real measure of any damage caused by the change and Trail Life is going to be irrelevant to them.

[NJCubScouter]

The dude running On My Honor was talking about BSA's "don't ask' date=' don't tell" policy. OK, BSA didn't have one but that's what they're running with.[/quote']

 

 

 

BSA didn't have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy? It did, and it does right now, and will continue to have a don't ask, don't tell policy for adult leaders. The policy for youths WAS either don't ask, don't tell or a sort of modified version of it, and there were contradictory statements about exactly what the policy was for youths. It is clear that as of Jan. 1, 2014 (which is, not coincidentally, the official "start" date for Trail Life) the policy will no longer be don't ask, don't tell for youths, but it will continue to be so for adults.

 

 

[walk in the woods]

Exactly my sentiments, dcsimmons, they said they'd leave and they did. I don't see anything inherently contradictory in their new rules either. The dude running On My Honor was talking about BSA's "don't ask, don't tell" policy. OK, BSA didn't have one but that's what they're running with. The "biological boy" rule is probably as much to do with GSUSA letting a boy that identifies as a girl into a troop as it does bizarre interpretations of the new BSA membership standard.

 

They might have a good number of people interested in joining them but they still have a long row to hoe. AHG is still very small and they've been at it for a while now.

 

For me, it will be interesting to see if membership numbers for BSA drop after this year's rechartering and how FoS numbers look this year. Both are real measure of any damage caused by the change and Trail Life is going to be irrelevant to them.

I agree that those metrics will be important. I'm not sure the 2014 numbers will matter so much as the trend over the next 3 years. If the BSA stays in the headlines due to law suits and such I suspect the trend line will be negative. I also suspect the trend line may be negative for anything that looks or smells like scouts.

 

KDD asked the 'does size matter' question earlier. I think it doesn't particularly for AHG or TLUSA. AHG been at it for 15 years, 18,000 youth is the last number I saw. I'm more interested to see what the two organizations do together. I'm assuming the TLUSA 18-25 yo program will be in conjunction with AHG. Interesting model.

[Huzzar]

The dude running On My Honor was talking about BSA's "don't ask' date=' don't tell" policy. OK, BSA didn't have one but that's what they're running with.[/quote']

 

 

 

BSA didn't have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy? It did, and it does right now, and will continue to have a don't ask, don't tell policy for adult leaders. The policy for youths WAS either don't ask, don't tell or a sort of modified version of it, and there were contradictory statements about exactly what the policy was for youths. It is clear that as of Jan. 1, 2014 (which is, not coincidentally, the official "start" date for Trail Life) the policy will no longer be don't ask, don't tell for youths, but it will continue to be so for adults.

 

No it didn't and no it doesn't. :-) Most units might have had that policy but National did not. As BD says, a third party with an axe to grind could get an adult tossed. That still applies. Cue ad nauseum discussion about what avowed means...

[NJCubScouter]

dcsimmons - I for one are happy to see them go, but still curious.. It's just the human nature of morbid curiosity.. I certainly wish them luck, but I don't see how.. I was curious about their rules against LDS, as although the religion is not my cup of tea, I always thought they were Christian.. I also thought they were pretty much in agreement with them on the homosexual issue.. I got to some forum thread where a woman from LDS tried to point out why they were Christian and a lot of people tore her religion to shreds..

 

I know we have also have discussed some frustration with LDS, but for the most part it is either because they don't mingle with us, or don't follow the normal BSA program. Pretty much disagreements on how we see BSA with how they see BSA.. I don't know of any time when we ripped their religion apart, because they follow not only the Bible, but the book of Mormons which makes them not Christian although they believe in Jesus Christ, but not the same way, so they are not Christian.. Blah, Blah..

 

Hmmmm... Well they may say they are Christian but welcome other religions, but if your another religion, I wouldn't recommend it, unless you want to be shot, stuffed and cooked for dinner..

BSA is definitely better off without the people who were on that forum. But how they are going to be welcoming enough to increase in numbers, is a mystery to me.

Eagledad, well, Trail Life is saying it's about religion, so I am taking them at their word.

 

 

 

As for burdensome paperwork and silly restrictions, I think that if and when Trail Life gets to be anywhere near as large as the BSA, you will see a lot of the same things there. But actually, I think you will see many of them right now, because a lot of what we all complain about in the BSA is driven by insurance underwriters. (Ok, and attorneys.) A lot of the G2SS is there because if it wasn't there, BSA's insurance premiums would be a lot higher. Tour plans require excessive detail for the same reason. The health forms, in my opinion, maybe go a little too far, partly for the same reason. I do not think Trail Life will be any more immune from concerns over insurance (and insurance premiums) than the BSA is, and that will be from the beginning. I don't think they have come out with their version of the G2SS yet, but let's see what it looks like. Same with the Guide to Advancement, let's see if Trail Life experiences any less of the "lawyering" over advancement that goes on in the BSA, which has produced the monstrosity we now have as the G2A. (Laser tag is actually a little different, that is not really a safety issue, it's really a values issue. The BSA does not want to provide an activity in which people point a simulated weapon at another human being and pull the trigger, even if the "projectile" is just a beam of light. Unlike most people in this forum, I agree with that policy.)