moosetracker Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 Let's see: the TLUSA was started mainly by Southern Baptists and they get to make the rules and decide the leaders. They devised rules such that the CO and unit leaders must believe in the Triune God and belong to "pure" churches. Catholics, Methodists, Episcopalians, Mormons and others are not "pure" since their churches allow gay members and/or clergy; they are welcome to join but are prohibited from leadership positions and decision making. They've set up two classes of membership. Why would anyone join if they are stuck in the lower class? ​Also, the way I read their Statement of Faith, divorced men and women are also excluded from leadership. They sure are fishing with a small net. tgrimstead - I wasn't even painting it with as wide a brush as TLUSA is suppose to represent, which they state is "Christian", not just Protestant.. But, narrowed it to Protestant because TLUSA seems to be more conceived by them.. Maybe this post seems to be hinting all protestants, but if you look at my other posts on this thread, I have definitely stated that not all Protestants fall into the same bucket.. So, what you are admitting is some of what I have stated, TLUSA is not for all Christians, nor for all Protestants.. It is only for Conservative Protestants.. Simply a very small piece of pie.. So TLUSA, may take a sliver of members away from BSA, but they really can't hope to become a serious competitor to it.. Even if they try to entice churches that never sponsored a BSA unit..Unless perhaps the Baptist or Evangelicals want to do an LDS thing and force enroll all their youth boy church members to bring up the count.. Otherwise they are just too narrow in focus. No I am the first to cry fowl when someone lumps Protestants into one lump, especially when it is lumping them all as conservative. Ewwww.. Yuck.. Bite your tongue...!!! Still if some protestant group has lumped marriage being a lifelong commitment to one man & one women.. into the meaning of Purity, I still am of the opinion it is someone who has added to the meaning or Purity in a way the Bible never outlined. It may have talked about marriage, and It may have talked about purity, it may have talked about having purity of heart when entering into a marraige.. but it didn't lump life long commitments, or sex without benefit of marriage into that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosetracker Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 Well the Pure of heart, mind, word and deed, sounds familure, put the addition part is definitely just people making their own rules. The highlighted statement is funny though.. So, that means no one who has divorced (even if not remarried), nor a widower starts a new relationship (regardless of if they marry or not.), nor anyone whose relationship turns physical before they wed (even if it is their one and only).. That rules out pretty much everyone on the planet, except maybe those whose looks or personality causes them never to find love. WakWIB - "The way you folks can put words into people's mouths is nothing short of remarkable" Ok.. So how do you interpret "We are to reserve sexual activity for the sanctity of marriage, a lifelong commitment before God between a man and a woman. " Where is the wiggle room for a physical relationship before marriage, even if you do end up married. Divorced people, or people who have remarried either after Divorce or after the death of their first spouse.. Since according to you, I got the meaning of that statement wrong, you should clarify what it means to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted September 23, 2013 Author Share Posted September 23, 2013 I was wondering about that Scouter99.. If the BSA group is mainly of the boys whose families are members of the church, their parents may have enough "buy in" to this change, but if the youth are not members of the church, the parents and boys may not have the same attitude toward it, and will move to units still running the BSA program.Oh he could do both. But he was talking about how much time he spent shining his shoes, But failed to plan the meeting that night. Missed the PLC to go to ROTC air rifle practice. It doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrinator Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 Well the Pure of heart, mind, word and deed, sounds familure, put the addition part is definitely just people making their own rules. The highlighted statement is funny though.. So, that means no one who has divorced (even if not remarried), nor a widower starts a new relationship (regardless of if they marry or not.), nor anyone whose relationship turns physical before they wed (even if it is their one and only).. That rules out pretty much everyone on the planet, except maybe those whose looks or personality causes them never to find love. a widower starts a new relationship I don't see how believing that marriage is a lifelong commitment would rule out a widower (or widow, for that matter) serving as a leader. Second, believing that marriage is a lifelong commitment and actually putting it into practice are two different things. I'm not aware of any Protestant churches that don't recognize remarriage after divorce but I could be educated on this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosetracker Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 Well the Pure of heart, mind, word and deed, sounds familure, put the addition part is definitely just people making their own rules. The highlighted statement is funny though.. So, that means no one who has divorced (even if not remarried), nor a widower starts a new relationship (regardless of if they marry or not.), nor anyone whose relationship turns physical before they wed (even if it is their one and only).. That rules out pretty much everyone on the planet, except maybe those whose looks or personality causes them never to find love. Well I know the liberal branch of Protestants understand there are good reasons for divorce, they will even remarry divorced people.. But, you should not enter into marriage lightly and shouldn't divorce lightly either.. If the statement TLUSA had stated somewhere in it something about believing in striving to meet these goals I would agree.. This statement, is totally unbendable, unbreakable fact that can not be broken regardless of anything even if there is abuse involved.. I am unsure if this statement comes from the conservative Protestant end. But, if this is what people have to sign to be a Leader in TLUSA, then written as it is, it becomes a very high bar for most people to get over.' As for Lifelong commitment before God between a man and a women.. Have you ever heard of life after death.. What are you going to do with your two wives or three husbands in heaven?? Even without heaven.. Life is life.. Lifelong commitment is different then "til death do us part" which is what people promise in their wedding vows, which allows a widow or widower to remarry.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeBob Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 Let's see: the TLUSA was started mainly by Southern Baptists and they get to make the rules and decide the leaders. They devised rules such that the CO and unit leaders must believe in the Triune God and belong to "pure" churches. Catholics, Methodists, Episcopalians, Mormons and others are not "pure" since their churches allow gay members and/or clergy; they are welcome to join but are prohibited from leadership positions and decision making. They've set up two classes of membership. Why would anyone join if they are stuck in the lower class? ​Also, the way I read their Statement of Faith, divorced men and women are also excluded from leadership. They sure are fishing with a small net. KDD: I've married 3 Catholics: Confession, Penance, Absolution. That was never the plan, but it can happen. The details are too personal to get into on an open forum; I probably shouldn't have told that. January 3rd will be our 18th anniversary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 Well the Pure of heart, mind, word and deed, sounds familure, put the addition part is definitely just people making their own rules. The highlighted statement is funny though.. So, that means no one who has divorced (even if not remarried), nor a widower starts a new relationship (regardless of if they marry or not.), nor anyone whose relationship turns physical before they wed (even if it is their one and only).. That rules out pretty much everyone on the planet, except maybe those whose looks or personality causes them never to find love. What are you going to do with your two wives or three husbands in heaven?? I 'd assume Christians would believe Matthew 22:30, though I have heard there are some small sects of Christians that don't allow remarriage after death, but I don't know if that's true or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 Well the Pure of heart, mind, word and deed, sounds familure, put the addition part is definitely just people making their own rules. The highlighted statement is funny though.. So, that means no one who has divorced (even if not remarried), nor a widower starts a new relationship (regardless of if they marry or not.), nor anyone whose relationship turns physical before they wed (even if it is their one and only).. That rules out pretty much everyone on the planet, except maybe those whose looks or personality causes them never to find love. I concur with Merlyn. Although one of my favorite songs is "Stretched on Your Grave" ... about holding on to your first love forever, Christ's teachings on marriage are pretty clear that the contract doesn't extend into eternity. "Lifelong" should be interpreted as the shortest time either partner spends this side of glory. Upon resurrection, those mortal contracts, although blessed by the Almighty at the time, are non-binding. This astounded his disciples, but I'd wager was pretty much a relief to their wives. Making sure there was a man in the house was their only form of social security, and spending the remainder of one's life without an earthly husband would be equivalent to a vow of poverty. Paul and other writers insisted it was fine for widows to seek to remarry within the church, but they should be held in high regard if they chose to remain single. Ancient Christianity was known for ensuring the community's widows were well cared for and empowered to serve any way they saw fit. A practice that was somewhat tarnished over the ages. Anyway Christians have always promoted marriage as something for us on here on earth who really have a hard time understanding any other way of being fruitful and multiplying. I've read about sects who interpreted things differently. But I don't think they will comprise much of TL's constituency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 Well the Pure of heart, mind, word and deed, sounds familure, put the addition part is definitely just people making their own rules. The highlighted statement is funny though.. So, that means no one who has divorced (even if not remarried), nor a widower starts a new relationship (regardless of if they marry or not.), nor anyone whose relationship turns physical before they wed (even if it is their one and only).. That rules out pretty much everyone on the planet, except maybe those whose looks or personality causes them never to find love. "Have you ever heard of life after death" Yep, heard of it. Mostly to me it means that some of the elements composing our bodies will end up in organisms that live after I die...or perhaps that my 'blood' line will continue somehow. Either way, at that unavoidable time I'll be beyond caring about commitments and such. Qwazse, actually I think we continue to demonstrate a superlative ability to multiply regardless of marriage. Basically, we are monkeys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosetracker Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 Hey, this lifelong isn't my belief.. Mine is "Until death do us part." (Not that I have husband #2 lined up for if my husband kick off in soon..).. Perhaps you guys do have it interpreted correctly.. But to me a Lifelong commitment by me, means my life, not your life.. But, I do not quite get the conservatives anyway.. And I don't think I truly believe it, but it is a comfort to me..to think I will again meet my loved ones when I die.. Aside from meeting them on the other side though, I have no imagination as to what we would do after the hugging is over with.. Perhaps my mother might tell me of a few things she thought I did wrong and could have done better.. After that we all fade away into nothingness.. Perhaps I would be called back to be a door greeter to those who lived beyond me, until there is no one on earth who knows me.. Now if I had married a total SOB or an abusive father, I would hope God would not include him on my "loved ones" list, for them to either greet me, or me to have to come out of total oblivion to have to greet them. So I will concede that that you might have the right of it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeBob Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 Well the Pure of heart, mind, word and deed, sounds familure, put the addition part is definitely just people making their own rules. The highlighted statement is funny though.. So, that means no one who has divorced (even if not remarried), nor a widower starts a new relationship (regardless of if they marry or not.), nor anyone whose relationship turns physical before they wed (even if it is their one and only).. That rules out pretty much everyone on the planet, except maybe those whose looks or personality causes them never to find love. Three wives in Heaven? Sounds Mormon to me. Not sure I'm gonna like it when they all gang up on me. Hey, this IS Heaven, right?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 Personally I do not think that viewing marriage as a "lifelong commitment" necessarily means that a divorced person would be excluded from leadership. (And if TL decides to do so, quite frankly, so what? It's not my organization nor is it going to be, so it doesn't bother me.) All religions that I am aware of, and ALMOST all people I have known who have gotten married, also view it as a lifelong commitment, and yet different religions and different people have different perspectives on divorce and what the divorced person should or shouldn't do (or be allowed to do) after the divorce. It does depend on the circumstances. If someone applied to be a leader and I know he has been divorced several times and the cause of the divorce was that he cheated on each wife with the next wife, and this is known throughout the community, I would probably conclude that he is not a good role model for the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Law. (Does that language sound familiar?) But if a guy has been divorced once because he and his wife just couldn't get along after years of trying, or if he was faithful and she cheated on him, I wouldn't have a problem. That assumes that I even know the details of the person's personal life, which normally I prefer not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattR Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 Well the Pure of heart, mind, word and deed, sounds familure, put the addition part is definitely just people making their own rules. The highlighted statement is funny though.. So, that means no one who has divorced (even if not remarried), nor a widower starts a new relationship (regardless of if they marry or not.), nor anyone whose relationship turns physical before they wed (even if it is their one and only).. That rules out pretty much everyone on the planet, except maybe those whose looks or personality causes them never to find love. Careful what you ask for JoeBob You'd also get three mother-in-laws, or nine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 Let's see: the TLUSA was started mainly by Southern Baptists and they get to make the rules and decide the leaders. They devised rules such that the CO and unit leaders must believe in the Triune God and belong to "pure" churches. Catholics, Methodists, Episcopalians, Mormons and others are not "pure" since their churches allow gay members and/or clergy; they are welcome to join but are prohibited from leadership positions and decision making. They've set up two classes of membership. Why would anyone join if they are stuck in the lower class? ​Also, the way I read their Statement of Faith, divorced men and women are also excluded from leadership. They sure are fishing with a small net. KDD, unless I missed something, I don't think JoeBob said he was Catholic. He said his three wives have been Catholic. One can be married to a Catholic without being one, or even being Christian, as I personally can attest. (Just one for me though, and 32 years and counting.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeBob Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 Well the Pure of heart, mind, word and deed, sounds familure, put the addition part is definitely just people making their own rules. The highlighted statement is funny though.. So, that means no one who has divorced (even if not remarried), nor a widower starts a new relationship (regardless of if they marry or not.), nor anyone whose relationship turns physical before they wed (even if it is their one and only).. That rules out pretty much everyone on the planet, except maybe those whose looks or personality causes them never to find love. Not wishing for it. Just acknowledging that my time in the afterlife may not be in Heaven.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now