Trail Life confused over who they are?????

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

It's kinda too bad that groups can no longer gather on similarities. Everything has to be diverse. While we promote this in certain aspects of life, we violently object to it in others. I want to join a group that basically doesn't want me around??? Why would I ever consider doing that???? Now to me the only rationale for such activity is to dictate to that group one's own beliefs. I'm going to join a Christian group to make it something other than Christian? Yep, we call that DIVERSITY. I'm going to join any group and going to make it Christian? And then the fight begins....! Yep, we call that TERRORIST, HATE MONGERS.

 

I know such groups out there such as the NCCAP and KKK that promote certain principles, neither of which I am interested in being involved with. I have no desire to join either group, nor am I interested in disrupting their organizations by making them diverse. First of all I highly doubt whether it would do any good.

 

On the other hand I don't what what they are promoting to dictate to me. I leave them alone, they leave me alone. That seems fair to me. Basically I don't personally like to be associated with anything racist, one way or the other, for or against. Why? Because the first thing I must do is judge people based on race to know who's my friend and who isn't.

 

With all the fur flying, it's pretty hard to tell one hypocrite from another out there these days.

 

Stosh

You need to consider race when it's a motive to a crime, or you're simply ignoring the motive for the crime.

[Basementdweller]

It's kinda too bad that groups can no longer gather on similarities. Everything has to be diverse. While we promote this in certain aspects of life, we violently object to it in others. I want to join a group that basically doesn't want me around??? Why would I ever consider doing that???? Now to me the only rationale for such activity is to dictate to that group one's own beliefs. I'm going to join a Christian group to make it something other than Christian? Yep, we call that DIVERSITY. I'm going to join any group and going to make it Christian? And then the fight begins....! Yep, we call that TERRORIST, HATE MONGERS.

 

I know such groups out there such as the NCCAP and KKK that promote certain principles, neither of which I am interested in being involved with. I have no desire to join either group, nor am I interested in disrupting their organizations by making them diverse. First of all I highly doubt whether it would do any good.

 

On the other hand I don't what what they are promoting to dictate to me. I leave them alone, they leave me alone. That seems fair to me. Basically I don't personally like to be associated with anything racist, one way or the other, for or against. Why? Because the first thing I must do is judge people based on race to know who's my friend and who isn't.

 

With all the fur flying, it's pretty hard to tell one hypocrite from another out there these days.

 

Stosh

race isn't an issue till it is.

 

Ever receive significantly poorer service than the folks your dining with???

 

Or

 

How about no food before the people with you got their checks?????

 

or

 

The Profiling stop by LEO

[DigitalScout]

Moose, A lot of folks call that standing on principle. Stay and fight for yours, that is your right. But do not deny folks who disagree the right to follow theirs. Regardless, the debate is over and nobody here has answered my question. Why do any of us care about what TLUSA is doing? They made their decision and left, which is what they said they would do. Why are scouters in the BSA taking pot shots at them and their organization?

I don't think anyone really cares what the TLUSA does; it's probably just fascination and something to debate for fun.

 

Stosh - the liberties of one person often infringes on the liberties of another and that's where the conflict arises. I think people should be free to smoke. But I don't want to breathe their cancer-causing exhaust because that infringes on my rights. So who's liberty prevails?

 

Conservatives talk big about freedom and liberty but they are right there getting into other peoples' business when two gay people want to marry or when someone needs marijuana for medical treatment or when a terminally ill person wants a dignified exit from this life or a woman wants to terminal a pregnancy.

[DigitalScout]

I believe the Pope wears one as well' date=' and I have seen photos of Cardinals in the Catholic church wearing them, though I suspect they don't call them yarmulkes.[/quote']

 

Right, it is called the "zuchetto". I believe it originated as a way for clergy to cover their tonsure (the part of the head that is shaven) and has remained even though the tonsure has been more or less done away with.

 

Now you can all go back to your regularly scheduled discussion of Trail Life. About which I will say, basically I agree with you. The only situation in which I could see a Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist boy wanting to join Trail Life is if he were friends with a bunch of other boys who were joining, and even then I would expect most parents to try to steer their son toward an organization that was equally welcoming to all religions. (I know that's what I would do if I still had a son of Scout age.)

 

With what I've seen from Trail Life USA, I can say that as a Catholic I would not want my sons to join. It seems like it is basically a Protestant organization.

What's the history behind the tonsure?

[moosetracker]

I believe the Pope wears one as well' date=' and I have seen photos of Cardinals in the Catholic church wearing them, though I suspect they don't call them yarmulkes.[/quote']

 

Right, it is called the "zuchetto". I believe it originated as a way for clergy to cover their tonsure (the part of the head that is shaven) and has remained even though the tonsure has been more or less done away with.

 

Now you can all go back to your regularly scheduled discussion of Trail Life. About which I will say, basically I agree with you. The only situation in which I could see a Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist boy wanting to join Trail Life is if he were friends with a bunch of other boys who were joining, and even then I would expect most parents to try to steer their son toward an organization that was equally welcoming to all religions. (I know that's what I would do if I still had a son of Scout age.)

 

With what I've seen from Trail Life USA, I can say that as a Catholic I would not want my sons to join. It seems like it is basically a Protestant organization.

Don't lump all Protestants into that statement, there are alot of forward thinking Protestant groups out there.. Conservative Protestants only.. Yeah, on top of that I don't see Episcopalions flocking to this new group either. They definately want BSA to change their policy on gays.. So a very narrow group of Protestants.

 

Before the Catholics new Pope and his very different veiws on the subject, I would have thought some of the more Conservative Catholic churches might have been interested in joining.. They still might if they don't want to heed the views of the new Pope.. I also thought the LDS group would have been interested, until TL stated they didn't see them as Christian..

 

So yep, a very small group..

[WAKWIB]

When there is more revealed about TLUSA's actual program and organizational structure , it might be interesting to have a topic where there is some comparisons made between their operation and the ours in BSA. There may be some good ideas floating around in a new and forming group that we could borrow and modify to make our program better.

Hopefully if that more positive and constructive topic is introduced it will not get deleted by a moderator or the site owner. Yeah, I know this topic that survived the purge about TL being "confused" about who they are makes it easy to take shots at them and makes us real Scouters feel so much better about ourselves. I do think a more objective study of the nuts and bolts of a potential competitor could be more constructive and helpful to us as we do our jobs of serving youth.

[NJCubScouter]

When there is more revealed about TLUSA's actual program and organizational structure , it might be interesting to have a topic where there is some comparisons made between their operation and the ours in BSA. There may be some good ideas floating around in a new and forming group that we could borrow and modify to make our program better.

Hopefully if that more positive and constructive topic is introduced it will not get deleted by a moderator or the site owner. Yeah, I know this topic that survived the purge about TL being "confused" about who they are makes it easy to take shots at them and makes us real Scouters feel so much better about ourselves. I do think a more objective study of the nuts and bolts of a potential competitor could be more constructive and helpful to us as we do our jobs of serving youth.

WAKWIB, if it were me who had created two topics on exactly the same controversial topic within a couple days of each other, and they each quickly vanished, I too might have a little difficulty accepting that it was just a coincidence and a technical glitch. However, I am asking you to accept that it was just a coincidence and a technical glitch. I have made inquiries with the site owner as well as the other moderators and am convinced, for myself at least, that these topics were not intentionally deleted by anyone. What actually happened apparently has not been determined, and given the way these things go, may never be. But in light of the quantity of technical problems that this forum has suffered in the past seven months, the disappearance of a couple of threads becomes a little easier to understand. Again, and especially from your perspective, it does seem a little too coincidental, but that's exactly what it was.

[MattR]

When there is more revealed about TLUSA's actual program and organizational structure , it might be interesting to have a topic where there is some comparisons made between their operation and the ours in BSA. There may be some good ideas floating around in a new and forming group that we could borrow and modify to make our program better.

Hopefully if that more positive and constructive topic is introduced it will not get deleted by a moderator or the site owner. Yeah, I know this topic that survived the purge about TL being "confused" about who they are makes it easy to take shots at them and makes us real Scouters feel so much better about ourselves. I do think a more objective study of the nuts and bolts of a potential competitor could be more constructive and helpful to us as we do our jobs of serving youth.

I would tend to believe NJCubScouter. The new code seems to be using AJAX, is asynchronous, and my guess is there are timing issues. My guess is these would show up more often with multiple people writing comments at the same time, so something about TL, which is interesting to us, would have a greater chance of having problems.

 

That said, I wish TL luck. Although they don't like my tribe, they'll help some kids and that's a good thing. They will also hopefully pull some of the heat off the BSA and that will help everyone. I don't get the LDS thing at all. Then again, it ain't my tribe. I generally like the LDS, they like me, but not having a glass of wine on Friday night, well, we can agree to disagree

 

I saw their description of the program and it looks like the equivalent to boy scouts is broken into a younger and older group. Maybe this comes from american heritage girls. Either way, it doesn't do much for boy led.

[Huzzar]

Huzzar, I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that the name of your local Catholic youth basketball team is probably either something like St. Mary's (for example) Basketball Team or the CYO (Catholic Youth Organization) Basketball Team, or something else that tells the world, World, we're a Catholic-sponsored basketball team. Which doesn't mean there might not be a Jewish kid or Hindu kid on the team, but if the parents of the Jewish kid want to know why there is a game scheduled on Rosh Hashanah or no game scheduled on Easter, the answer is, look at the name of the team. The local Jewish synagogue may also have a basketball team, maybe its called the Beth Israel youth basketball team, and the parents of the one Catholic kid on the team shouldn't be surprised that maybe there is a game on Easter, and none on Rosh Hashanah. And so on and so forth.

 

Trail Life can name itself what it wants (within the bounds of intellectual property law, which doesn't appear to be a problem), but it is also legitimate to point out that nothing in the group's name suggests that adults need to sign on to a Trinitarian Christian statement of faith in order to be leaders. It also is legitimate to point out that the "open to all youth" is slightly disingenuous when the leaders have to conform to certain religious principles -- but hey, if they are a little disingenuous, maybe a little tricky or clever in their wording, well, they have a good role model (heh heh) in the current leadership of the BSA. In some ways they are being MORE honest than the BSA. As I have said a number of times over the years, while the BSA claims to be "absolutely nonsectarian", the fact is that the religions (or parts of religions) that have as part of their religious principles that gay people should NOT be excluded, are treated like "second-class" religions. (Examples would be Reform Judaism, United Church of Christ, many Episcopalian churches, some Methodist, some Presbyterian, etc.) The BSA will take your money, enroll you and your children as members, but when it comes to your unit's freedom to make decisions about who should be a leader, the BSA dictates that you obey the values-system of some OTHER religion, which on that issue are contrary to the beliefs of your own religion. This isn't advertised anywhere, it's just pointed out by troublemakers like me. (And yes, I continue to be a BSA leader, because I think the good still far outweighs the bad, and things will change someday.) And then some religions are really treated more like "third-class" religions, for example Wicca and UUA (at least in the past, not sure about currently.) At least Trail Life is a little more up front about it.

 

So, nobody's perfect. I wish Trail Life success within the sphere of what they are trying to be, and I hope the BSA will someday soon fully live up to the ideals that it represents. (And if that isn't clear enough for everybody, I think that means rescinding the ban on openly gay leaders.)

 

One thing I do have to say, in agreement with Eagledad and some others who have posted today -- there is NO evidence that Trail Life intends to discriminate on the basis of race. Let's not make those kinds of accusations based on a few photos of who was able to attend a particular event. If they do struggle to remain "demographically representative", well again, they do have a "role model" in the BSA.

This is verbatim from the flyer they've produced to hand out to prospective members and parents. Show me where they are being disingenuous. How could you not figure out they're a Christian youth group?

 

All boys are welcome irrespective of religion, race, national origin or socio-economic status. However, all adult leaders must sign a Christian statement of faith. All program elements are taught from a Christian worldview, with God’s truth woven into the very fabric of the program.

[Huzzar]

Nobody said that Trail Life is a racist group. They seem like a live-and-let live organization and want to do their own thing which is all well and good. I was merely pointing out that they have set up a qualification system to guarantee a very homogeneous group. An outsider may not feel very welcome. And I think that is the intention.

You didn't say but you imply it. (wink, wink)

[Huzzar]

There have been some comments in this thread on the idea that the YP guidelines may be modified as a result of the change being made to the youth membership policy. It appears that the guidelines will not be modified. There is a document on the BSA web site (dated August 2013) that contains guidance for units on implementing the policy change. (I am not sure what the BSA has done to make sure people are aware of this information, other than putting it on their own web site. I have not seen any discussion of it in this forum.) I tried to cut and paste parts of this document but it is formatted in a way that makes that very difficult - for me, at least. Maybe someone else can figure it out.

 

Suffice it to say that this document contains some statements that are going to be viewed differently by different people in this forum. On the "tenting" issue, for example, it basically says that the local units can figure out the tenting arrangements for themselves, which is what I have been saying for years. The whole theme of the document is that very little will change. There is a question in the "FAQ" about to do if a Scout tells you he is attracted to persons of his own gender, and I am pleased to see that the answer makes fairly clear that such a statement does NOT amount to "flaunting" of a Scout's orientation. In other words, a Scout can be openly gay as long as all that's involved is talking. That is my interpretation, anyway.

 

A discussion of this document probably should be in its own thread, but here is the document: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/tr...tation_FAQ.pdf

There are some "training" slides there too but basically National has pushed it back to the Units.

[Huzzar]

I believe the Pope wears one as well' date=' and I have seen photos of Cardinals in the Catholic church wearing them, though I suspect they don't call them yarmulkes.[/quote']

 

Right, it is called the "zuchetto". I believe it originated as a way for clergy to cover their tonsure (the part of the head that is shaven) and has remained even though the tonsure has been more or less done away with.

 

Now you can all go back to your regularly scheduled discussion of Trail Life. About which I will say, basically I agree with you. The only situation in which I could see a Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist boy wanting to join Trail Life is if he were friends with a bunch of other boys who were joining, and even then I would expect most parents to try to steer their son toward an organization that was equally welcoming to all religions. (I know that's what I would do if I still had a son of Scout age.)

 

With what I've seen from Trail Life USA, I can say that as a Catholic I would not want my sons to join. It seems like it is basically a Protestant organization.

The Episcopalian and Presbyterian (USA) churches are having a lot of problems with their national bodies pushing gay rights (as well as being pro-abortion). In fact both denominations are losing entire congregations over the issue.

 

Mainstream Protestantism rejects the views of the liberal churches. The liberal churches are the minority not the other way around.

 

I think that TLUSA will probably appeal to the same churches as AHG and end up being about the same size as AHG. It will be interesting to see if any Catholic churches charter TLUSA units, I can see why you'd be leery.

[Peregrinator]

I believe the Pope wears one as well' date=' and I have seen photos of Cardinals in the Catholic church wearing them, though I suspect they don't call them yarmulkes.[/quote']

 

Right, it is called the "zuchetto". I believe it originated as a way for clergy to cover their tonsure (the part of the head that is shaven) and has remained even though the tonsure has been more or less done away with.

 

Now you can all go back to your regularly scheduled discussion of Trail Life. About which I will say, basically I agree with you. The only situation in which I could see a Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist boy wanting to join Trail Life is if he were friends with a bunch of other boys who were joining, and even then I would expect most parents to try to steer their son toward an organization that was equally welcoming to all religions. (I know that's what I would do if I still had a son of Scout age.)

 

With what I've seen from Trail Life USA, I can say that as a Catholic I would not want my sons to join. It seems like it is basically a Protestant organization.

What's the history behind the tonsure?

Good question. Unfortunately I can't give you an answer that you couldn't find yourself by Googling.

[Peregrinator]

I believe the Pope wears one as well' date=' and I have seen photos of Cardinals in the Catholic church wearing them, though I suspect they don't call them yarmulkes.[/quote']

 

Right, it is called the "zuchetto". I believe it originated as a way for clergy to cover their tonsure (the part of the head that is shaven) and has remained even though the tonsure has been more or less done away with.

 

Now you can all go back to your regularly scheduled discussion of Trail Life. About which I will say, basically I agree with you. The only situation in which I could see a Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist boy wanting to join Trail Life is if he were friends with a bunch of other boys who were joining, and even then I would expect most parents to try to steer their son toward an organization that was equally welcoming to all religions. (I know that's what I would do if I still had a son of Scout age.)

 

With what I've seen from Trail Life USA, I can say that as a Catholic I would not want my sons to join. It seems like it is basically a Protestant organization.

Don't lump all Protestants into that statement, there are alot of forward thinking Protestant groups out there.

I'm not lumping Protestants, I'm lumping Trail Life USA. To say that Trail Life USA is essentially a Protestant organization doesn't mean that all or even most Protestants agree with them. I hope they do well, but what they offer isn't for me and my family.

[Huzzar]

I find this humorous: on the Trail LIfe forum a Mormon asked that the Statement of Faith be modified because Mormons don't believe in the Trinity nor the divinity of Jesus. He was told in no uncertain terms "no", that he was welcome to participate but he couldn't be leader. It appears the sword of exclusion cuts both ways. Actually, I find it ironic, not humorous.

What is worse, explicitly defining what you mean by the term "Christian" or using a wishy washy requirement that you believe in a Supreme Being then making it so weak that the only people that don't make the cut are atheists but not Buddhists?

 

FYI, Mormons have been considered a non-Christian cult by many non-Mormons for most of their existence. Read this article about how the LDS decided that black people were cursed with dark skin and then were not cursed anymore and you'll get an idea of why other denominations have problems with their theology.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/opinion/sunday/racism-and-the-mormon-church.html