Should We or They Be Embarrassed; or Both?

[Peregrinator]

1911 BSA handbook; A boy may wear all the scout uniforms made' date=' all the scout badges ever manufactured, know all the woodcraft, campcraft, scoutcraft and other activities of boy scouts, and yet never be a real boy scout.[/b'] To be a real boy scout means...(ideals trump skills)

　

Yes. On occasion Baden-Powell himself demonstrated that same fatal bravado.

　

Physical Scoutcraft skills made Scouting so wildly popular with boys, that the founders never in their wildest nightmares anticipated that professional Eagles would use our government-imposed monopoly to convert Scouting to an "ideals trump skills" program in which the highest rank did not require a single night of camping.

You mean like all that silly talk about good turns and the like?

[MattR]

I agree with the idea that character and adventure go hand in hand. Adventure in the outdoors leads to problems which leads to learning how to deal with those problems. Match that with good character and you have a man. Either one by itself leads to either a church youth group or an REI minor league.

 

The character part of scouting is strong. The part that's lacking is where the scout makes decisions and takes responsibility for himself and others. It's getting harder to do that with helicopter parents, rules from above that limit a lot of fun, and kids that honestly expect to be told exactly what to do. I have a mom that sent his son's patrol email "because he's not very organized" (what a fight that was). We can't climb on rocks above waist high. Really? These kids ski and bike off of rocks higher than waist high.

 

Anyway, Kudu has a point that, while harshly made, I'm finding more and more important. We're moving away from the adventure and that's what a lot of kids want and that's where they learn. There's a way to get back to it and do it safely but there's nothing I see from National that's helping that. Not JTE, not ILST, not Woodbadge. Maybe back in the day of Hillcourt all the adults naturally knew how to do this but they don't now.

We seem to be talking about two different issues; what the kids want, and what the parents want. As for the kids, they haven't changed over the years. They still want fun, challenge, and respect from adults. They still like telling stories of dealing with tough situations. For the boys we need to improve the program. Boy-led, 300' and the outdoors is all part of it.

 

What the parents want is different. Maybe they are afraid of the outdoors, or more likely, just don't understand it. At the same time, I'm not sure parents views have changed that much on what they want for their kids. Responsible, confident, compassionate, courageous. They want their boys to grow into good men. I certainly have plenty of moms come up to me asking that I help raise their sons to be good men. Maybe the challenge is that the BSA isn't doing a good job of connecting the methods of scouting to growing into a man. If the view is we go into the woods and start fires with flint and steel, but nobody sees that as being prepared, or that the scouts are learning to solve their own problems, then scouting is seen as quaint. We don't need to sell the adventure as jumping on the back of a wild boar with a knife in our teeth, but certainly conquering challenges is a good, fun way to learn what's important.

[Kudu]

Maybe the challenge is that the BSA isn't doing a good job of connecting the methods of scouting to growing into a man.

Those Methods of Scouting are designed to teach Bruce Tuckman to Den Leaders. Scouting helps boys grow into good men because of common interests between the young and the old. It's a human thing. The Methods are only a theory, and a bad one at that. If hockey had "eight methods" boys would hate ice as much as they hate Scouting.

 

If the view is we go into the woods and start fires with flint and steel' date=' but nobody sees that as being prepared, or that the scouts are learning to solve their own problems, then scouting is seen as quaint. [/quote']

The only people who feel that way are the BSA's professional millionaires, Wood Badge Staffers, and the "always an Eagle" types.

 

Consider: If the view is that boys hit a ball with a club, but nobody sees that as being prepared, or that the Little Leaguers are learning to solve their own problems, then does anyone who loves baseball care if others see baseball as quaint?

 

 

The icons and images of baseball are older than Scouting, but unlike the BSA, Little League is not run by CEOs who hate baseball, Wood Badge Staffers whose lives are dedicated to replacing catching and throwing with storming and norming, and adult Little League World Series ring holders who hold the boys' homeruns hostage to a satisfactory forced discussion of sportsmanship.

　

 

We don't need to sell the adventure as jumping on the back of a wild boar with a knife in our teeth' date=' [/quote']

We should. That is the self-image all sixth-graders should leave with after any Boy Scout recruitment encounter. 80% of all boys would want to be a Boy Scout, and indoor Eagles would not be the embarrassment that this thread describes.

 

 

What the parents want is different. Maybe they are afraid of the outdoors

Some are, as the statistics I provided show. Over the years a number of mothers have said that their sixth-grade sons were "not ready for camping yet, maybe next year." Statistically DCSimmons is closer to the truth, but my general sense is that experience with Cub Scouts is the greatest source of anti-Boy Scout sales resistance among both parents and boys. The statistics at the following URL (from above) show how that 80% of sixth-graders who want to be Boy Scouts is reduced by parents to only 30% registered BSA members:

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting_boy_scouts_public_schools.htm

 

However, if I read my own statistics correctly, 30% of all the sixth-grade parents do sign their sons up for Scouting if I promise them nothing more than some fresh air and exercise.

 

I never mention Eagle Scout to parents because I don't want that kind of people on a Troop Committee.

 

I never mention "Leadership" because teaching "leadership skills" is based on every Scout getting a turn at being a "leader." To camp Patrols 300 feet apart, and send them out on hikes without Tuckman helicopters, we need to stick with only the very best natural leaders in positions of real responsibility, so that all the other boys are not in harm's way.

 

I never mention "Adult Association" or "Ideals," but rather read to them what their son wrote on the clipboard. "Jimmy says he likes guns. He can shoot a .22 next month, and a shotgun if he can handle it." "Tommy says he wants to see a bear. He will have to wait until July, when we camp at Sabattis." "Johnny and his friend Carlos love fishing? Do you know Carlos? They will be spending a lot of time with our older Scouts who bring a fishing pole to every campout."

 

 

That seems to be enough.

 

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

 

 

[MattR]

Kudu, I have a question for you. How do service projects fit in with the outdoor program? Since you'd like the focus of scouting to be outdoor skills (as would I), is there a need for service projects?

 

My view is that the outdoors develops confidence and doing service develops compassion, two very useful characteristics.

 

[Kudu]

Kudu, I have a question for you. How do service projects fit in with the outdoor program? Since you'd like the focus of scouting to be outdoor skills (as would I), is there a need for service projects?

 

My view is that the outdoors develops confidence and doing service develops compassion, two very useful characteristics.

"Service for Others" has always been central to Baden-Powell's Scouting.

 

If you look at his Boy Scout uniforms in the rest of the world, all Scoutcraft badges are worn on the right side of the uniform, and all Public Service badges are worn on the left.

 

http://inquiry.net/images/placement-sr.gif

 

Note that these Public Service badges represent current proficiency in the SKILLS of service (such as First Aid, recertified every year), not hours of service projects or months of leadership service.

 

In real Scouting a Boy Scout helps other people at all times because it is the right thing to do. Service hour requirements and Position Of Responsibility requirements teach Boy Scouts to expect compensation for what should be given freely.

[MattR]

Kudu, I have a question for you. How do service projects fit in with the outdoor program? Since you'd like the focus of scouting to be outdoor skills (as would I), is there a need for service projects?

 

My view is that the outdoors develops confidence and doing service develops compassion, two very useful characteristics.

A few more questions. 1) I'm not sure you really answered the previous question. How do service projects fit in with the outdoor program? You said they're important, but how do they complement learning outdoor skills, which is really a selfish thing when you get right down to it. I'm not asking because I'm a butt, I'm getting somewhere with this.

 

2) If service hours are not important and "doing" is the best way to learn a skill, then how does the SM encourage a scout to do the right thing? Does the troop just plan a number of service projects and the expectation is the scout will show up to most of them? That's more in line with what I do now anyway. I'm afraid that just talking about doing the right thing will never stick in a teenage boy's brain. Firing a gun is fun and it's easy to get them to want to do that. Collecting food for the food bank is not fun and likely not meaningful until a scout is older.

 

3) This is really what I'm after. What is a short description, less than a sentence, of the purpose of scouting? I ask because when I looked at the BSA website it looked like a horrible mess written by a committee of psycho babblers. Because the purpose isn't clear the training isn't clear, and the program isn't clear, and the boys and parents aren't sure what it's all about. it's an inkblot test and people see what they want to see in it. You seem to like to make things simple and this is a time where some simplicity would be a good thing. I don't expect anyone at national to read this, but at least when I talk to parents I can sound coherent.

 

I don't mind if anyone else chimes in as well. If I were to rewrite the BSA website I'd write "Developing the type of man that every woman wants: Confident, compassionate, and adventurous." It's a bit cheeky but the moms and dads that know little of the outdoors need to hear something better than "Reinforce Ethical Standards" if they're ever going to encourage their kids to go camping with us.

[ParkMan]

It's going to be hard to find a single sentence description. Scouting really is many different things. Probably the closest you'll get is:

"The purpose of this corporation shall be to promote, through organization and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in Scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using methods which are now in common use by the Boy Scouts."

[MattR]

Probably the closest you'll get is:

"The purpose of this corporation shall be to promote, through organization and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in Scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using methods which are now in common use by the Boy Scouts."

 

Well, it's 100 years old, but a good place to start.

 

If I strip out the legalese and write it in a more current style I come up with: The purpose is for boys to be skilled in the outdoors, benevolent, responsible, courageous, honorable, and patriotic.

 

​That seems a lot more succinct than Reinforce Ethical Standards. I'm not sure the kids will think much of it. Sports is about winning and winning strikes a chord within a boy. Maybe honor and courage can take the place of winning.

 

[Kudu]

1) I'm not sure you really answered the previous question. How do service projects fit in with the outdoor program? You said they're important, but how do they complement learning outdoor skills, which is really a selfish thing when you get right down to it.

How do they complement each other? Scoutcraft ("The Religion of the Woods") and Service for Others ("Practical Christianity") are the two spiritual sides of Baden-Powell's Boy Scout program.

 

Literally the "two sides" because Scoutcraft badges are worn on the right side of the uniform, and Service for Others badges on the left. In most Western religions, the right side is favored by God, but as far as I know there is no written account of the right/left symbolism of the Traditional Scout Uniform.

 

The final test of Scoutcraft competency for every award (what Americans call a "rank") is an overnight backwoods Journey, undertaken with a buddy, or alone like an OA Vigil.

 

 

No doubt this sounds abstract to most BSA members, because we replaced spiritual quests (Journeys) with indoor job interview practice (Scoutmaster Conferences and Boards of Review).

 

During the Hillcourt era, regular Patrol Hikes and Overnights provided some semblance of a close experience with nature, but Leadership Development replaced Hillcourt's Patrol Method with whole-Troop "leadership skills." Likewise Leadership Development replaced the spiritual quality of Service for Others (service projects and competency-based leadership), freely given, with advancement-credit compensation.

 

"Some may object that the religion of the Backwoods is also a religion of the backward; and to some extent it is so. It is going back to the primitive, to the elemental, but at the same time it is to the common ground on which most forms of religion are based --- namely, the appreciation of God [The Religion of the Woods/Scoutcraft] and service to one's neighbor [Practical Christianity/Service for Others]" (Baden-Powell).

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/b-p/backwoods.htm

 

"There is no religious "side" of the movement. The whole of it is based on religion, that is, on the realization [The Religion of the Woods/Scoutcraft] and service [Practical Christianity/Service for Others] of God" (Baden-Powell)

 

"His father's pantheistic book, The Order of Nature was a significant influence upon him, as a sub-heading in Rovering to Success makes plain 'Nature Knowledge as a Step Towards Realizing God'. Baden-Powell also used to quote Bacon's aphorism: 'The study of the Book of Nature is the true key to that of Revelation.' In a bizarre way he managed to combine camping equipment, adventure, and religious sensations in a remarkable synthesis. In his published Matabele Campaign he described his camping impedimenta as his 'toys' and then went on: 'May it not be that our toys are the various media adapted to individual tastes through which men may know their God?'"

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm

 

 

[MattR]

Thanks Kudu, nice read and answer. It's interesting that BP put an emphasis on the spiritual and there are so many people that are looking more for the spiritual. The Pew survey in another thread shows that. Maybe the BSA has an opportunity here.

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

It all comes down to this. We have a limited time to make a life changing impact on these young men. A well thought out program has been designed with several "methods" of delivery, that if used together maximize the potential of the young men receiving, and being changed for the better, to some degree, by the program. Advancement is one of the several methods of program delivery.

 

The advancement process to Eagle is not a mold that the raw material of the young man is poured into, and a known result comes out of. Eagle scout is simply another motivational tool in that advancement process that can be used to challenge a scout, and help him grow.

 

Eagle is a big deal, like a college degree, but like the degree is not guarantee that what has been presented has been absorbed, or will be used in the intended way.

[perdidochas]

Kudu, I have a question for you. How do service projects fit in with the outdoor program? Since you'd like the focus of scouting to be outdoor skills (as would I), is there a need for service projects?

 

My view is that the outdoors develops confidence and doing service develops compassion, two very useful characteristics.

On the whole service hours thing, I've found my troop has two types of scouts: 1) the scouts who have so many service hours that the whole idea of recording service hours is silly (my sons are in that group), and 2) the scouts who do the minimum amount of service necessary to get their next rank. My oldest son's Eagle project work day had one scout who showed up about noon (the rest started at 8). This scout worked until 1, then told us he had finished the one hour he needed, and it was time to go home and fish.

 

In terms of the question about service hours and outdoor program, the single category of service hours that has the most participation is in conservation/camp restoration programs. Sometimes we delitter an area. Other times, we have trimmed limbs going into a trail/camp road.