Should We or They Be Embarrassed; or Both?

[DuctTape]

1911 BSA handbook; "And then the final and chief test of the scout is the doing of a good turn to somebody every day, quietly and without boasting. This is the proof of the scout. It is practical religion, and a boy honors God best when he helps others most. A boy may wear all the scout uniforms made, all the scout badges ever manufactured, know all the woodcraft, campcraft, scoutcraft and other activities of boy scouts, and yet never be a real boy scout. To be a real boy scout means the doing of a good turn every day with the proper motive and if this be done, the boy has a right to be classed with the great scouts that have been of such service to their country. To accomplish this a scout should observe the scout law." (ideals trump skills)

 

I think its reasonable to say that character and ideals have always been in the stew, not thrown in as the result of a 1960 memo or 1970 "improved scouting nightmare". We need not agree on this point and probably won't.

 

I don't require constructive suggestions or ideas on character development that meet with my satisfaction. I merely asked members of the forum to contribute constructively. If you clearly feel that character development is a waste of program energy, then why not simply move on and let those of us who feel differently try to help boys as best we can? (...because you disagree with our approach and think we're damaging the youth...OK, we get your point....)

 

Not every troop works the exact same way, nor should they -- this is the underlying benefit of diversity and tolerance -- enabling multiple approaches to flourish and create synergies that innovate when results suggest that the approach was beneficial and testing confirms that it can be replicated (it wasn't a fluke). Of course, we could also just troll around and boo-hoo anyone who tries to do their best to serve the youth in a way counter to our personal preferences, too.

 

I'm just trying to live out the eagle oath "I promise to make my training and example, My rank and my influence, Count strongly for better Scouting" but that would be an ideal, not pushing a ball through physical space, right? Oh well.

I still disagree with your contention that "Ideals trump skills". Even the quote doesn't make that claim. They go hand in hand. The ideal to observe the law and do a good turn require the boy to have the skills necessary. To be prepared to do ones duty is to have the skills for "any old thing". One cannot fulfill the ideals without the skills. Neither ideals nor skills trump the other.

[Basementdweller]

Personal Growth (as a bone fide "method" of scouting that is equally important as the "outdoor program" or "boy led patrol method")

 

PaulSafety: Welcome to the forum from your anti-matter counterpart in Scouting.

 

The centerpiece of the "Personal Growth" Method when it was introduced, was the "Personal Growth Agreement Conference" with its own paperwork: the official "Personal Growth Agreement" contract. The Scout was required to list specific goals and then meet them before his next advancement. To accommodate the anticipated flood of "urban youth" who hate Scoutcraft, the goals need not have anything to do with Scouting.

 

And yes, when "Personal Growth" and "Leadership Development" were introduced in 1972, the Scoutmaster's Handbook asserted that these new "Methods" of Scouting were equally important (bold and italic emphasis in the original) to the Traditional Methods.

 

Camping was removed from the supposedly "equally important" Outdoor Method as a requirement (yes, in the ideal "leadership skills" program you could go from recruit to Eagle Scout without a single night away from home), "Real" Patrols (and Patrol Leader Training itself) were removed from the supposedly "equally important" Patrol Method and replaced with "leadership skills," and Scoutcraft (required by our Congressional Charter) was removed from Wood Badge and replaced with, um, "leadership skills."

 

So Personal Growth was introduced by those in Scouting with contempt for Scoutcraft and the Patrol Method, and lives on in the "Character and Leadership" battle cry of the BSA:

 

http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm

 

Boys am I glad I missed that as a boy

[desertrat77]

Basement, good question. Getting ready to retire from the military, serving in my fourth (and final!) council in the space of six years...a couple of rambling thoughts, if you please....

 

- Eagle has been cheapened by the emphasis on numbers...with National leading the charge.

 

- It's been awhile since I've seen the "all Eagles please stand" deal. But when it does happen, I only stand for .5 of a second and sit down. It IS embarrassing! What about all the great former scouts, of all ranks, in the audience? What about the great scouters who weren't scouts as a kid? It's just misguided to distinguish between scouters that way.

 

- Most of my experience has been at the other end of the spectrum. In two of the four councils, there have been very few scouter who were Eagles. I never say a word about being an Eagle and neither do they.

 

Bottom line: I know good Eagles, but the best scouters I've served with are the former scouts who may have topped out at Star, who served honorably as a scout, with lots of nights under the stars and trail miles under the belts. These folks are the salt of the earth and keep the flame of scouting alive in their units or at whatever level they serve.

 

[Basementdweller]

I do agree with MattR that it's the SM who sets the bar on the Eagle in each unit

I'll give you that the Scoutmaster is in charge of the advancement program within the troop but since the requirements for earning the Eagle rank/award should be the same for all troops - the Scoutmaster should not be setting the bar. I was a Scoutmaster to around 15-20 boys who earned the Eagle rank and I can honestly say that some stuck around to earn silver palms and remained active in troop (youth) leadership and some never returned after they earned the rank except for their ECOH.

 

One of the best Scouts I've ever had the privilege to work with never got past 2nd Class and was a great PL and SPL. The Eagle rank doesn't make the Scout but it is a nice recognition for the Scouts who have completed the requirements.

Many parents and Scoutmasters need a tangible measure.

 

Krampus's troop is a fine example of this. A boy shows up to the meeting, attends the outings, his patrol leader signed off the rank advancement requirements.

 

How do you measure scout spirit for the scout lawyer parent....Tell me why my son doesn't show scout spirit.he attends all the meetings, but doesn't participates, he attends the campouts, doesn't do anything beyond the bare minimum.

[MattR]

I agree with the idea that character and adventure go hand in hand. Adventure in the outdoors leads to problems which leads to learning how to deal with those problems. Match that with good character and you have a man. Either one by itself leads to either a church youth group or an REI minor league.

 

The character part of scouting is strong. The part that's lacking is where the scout makes decisions and takes responsibility for himself and others. It's getting harder to do that with helicopter parents, rules from above that limit a lot of fun, and kids that honestly expect to be told exactly what to do. I have a mom that sent his son's patrol email "because he's not very organized" (what a fight that was). We can't climb on rocks above waist high. Really? These kids ski and bike off of rocks higher than waist high.

 

Anyway, Kudu has a point that, while harshly made, I'm finding more and more important. We're moving away from the adventure and that's what a lot of kids want and that's where they learn. There's a way to get back to it and do it safely but there's nothing I see from National that's helping that. Not JTE, not ILST, not Woodbadge. Maybe back in the day of Hillcourt all the adults naturally knew how to do this but they don't now.

[PaulSafety]

I agree with the idea that character and adventure go hand in hand. Adventure in the outdoors leads to problems which leads to learning how to deal with those problems. Match that with good character and you have a man. Either one by itself leads to either a church youth group or an REI minor league.

 

The character part of scouting is strong. The part that's lacking is where the scout makes decisions and takes responsibility for himself and others. It's getting harder to do that with helicopter parents, rules from above that limit a lot of fun, and kids that honestly expect to be told exactly what to do. I have a mom that sent his son's patrol email "because he's not very organized" (what a fight that was). We can't climb on rocks above waist high. Really? These kids ski and bike off of rocks higher than waist high.

 

Anyway, Kudu has a point that, while harshly made, I'm finding more and more important. We're moving away from the adventure and that's what a lot of kids want and that's where they learn. There's a way to get back to it and do it safely but there's nothing I see from National that's helping that. Not JTE, not ILST, not Woodbadge. Maybe back in the day of Hillcourt all the adults naturally knew how to do this but they don't now.

a friend told me about this program pilot. Looks like the adventure experience that older scouts would really connect with......amazing video -- why haven't we heard more about this?

[Basementdweller]

Probably because it is either a unit program or maybe a district. Something they will try to pitch to national.....

[Eagledad]

I agree with the idea that character and adventure go hand in hand. Adventure in the outdoors leads to problems which leads to learning how to deal with those problems. Match that with good character and you have a man. Either one by itself leads to either a church youth group or an REI minor league.

 

The character part of scouting is strong. The part that's lacking is where the scout makes decisions and takes responsibility for himself and others. It's getting harder to do that with helicopter parents, rules from above that limit a lot of fun, and kids that honestly expect to be told exactly what to do. I have a mom that sent his son's patrol email "because he's not very organized" (what a fight that was). We can't climb on rocks above waist high. Really? These kids ski and bike off of rocks higher than waist high.

 

Anyway, Kudu has a point that, while harshly made, I'm finding more and more important. We're moving away from the adventure and that's what a lot of kids want and that's where they learn. There's a way to get back to it and do it safely but there's nothing I see from National that's helping that. Not JTE, not ILST, not Woodbadge. Maybe back in the day of Hillcourt all the adults naturally knew how to do this but they don't now.

I agree with everything you say because I've experienced it. If we provide adventure, they will come. But National has the problem of keeping a product interesting and that has become more challenging. Nobody saw it then, but bringing women into the program changed the general image of boy scouting for the majority of adult volunteers joining the program. I think close to 70 percent of volunteers today didn't have a scouting experience as a youth. That is a big problem because it is fair to say that likely the majority of adult volunteers never camped more that 2 days in their life before they joined the BSA. The new Wood Badge program introduced in 2000 is direct result of National trying to deal with that kind of adult leader. To get to the program many here keep harping that would bring back more scouts, National ironically would have to consider loosing at least 50% of membership. That is certainly a huge guess on my part, but I think reasonable considering the number of inexperienced scouters that enter the program. I am considered a Boy Run extremist in my council and was always preaching boy run to units. But it wasn't until I was the District Membership Chairman that I humbly learned that even boys in adult run programs had fun and grew a lot in the Fitness, Citizenship and Character as a result of their troop experience. So the question is do we want to provide a top shelf program to less than 50% of boys served today, or is what we provide today enough? I don't have the answer, I was a boy run extremist. I ran a 300 feet apart style program and we where very active outdoors. But I do respect the situation. Barry

[Kudu]

1911 BSA handbook; A boy may wear all the scout uniforms made' date=' all the scout badges ever manufactured, know all the woodcraft, campcraft, scoutcraft and other activities of boy scouts, and yet never be a real boy scout.[/b'] To be a real boy scout means...(ideals trump skills)

　

Yes. On occasion Baden-Powell himself demonstrated that same fatal bravado.

　

Physical Scoutcraft skills made Scouting so wildly popular with boys, that the founders never in their wildest nightmares anticipated that professional Eagles would use our government-imposed monopoly to convert Scouting to an "ideals trump skills" program in which the highest rank did not require a single night of camping.

 

[MattR]

I agree with the idea that character and adventure go hand in hand. Adventure in the outdoors leads to problems which leads to learning how to deal with those problems. Match that with good character and you have a man. Either one by itself leads to either a church youth group or an REI minor league.

 

The character part of scouting is strong. The part that's lacking is where the scout makes decisions and takes responsibility for himself and others. It's getting harder to do that with helicopter parents, rules from above that limit a lot of fun, and kids that honestly expect to be told exactly what to do. I have a mom that sent his son's patrol email "because he's not very organized" (what a fight that was). We can't climb on rocks above waist high. Really? These kids ski and bike off of rocks higher than waist high.

 

Anyway, Kudu has a point that, while harshly made, I'm finding more and more important. We're moving away from the adventure and that's what a lot of kids want and that's where they learn. There's a way to get back to it and do it safely but there's nothing I see from National that's helping that. Not JTE, not ILST, not Woodbadge. Maybe back in the day of Hillcourt all the adults naturally knew how to do this but they don't now.

Paul, looks like a council summer camp thing. I like it, though.

 

EagleDad, I don't doubt you one bit that there are a lot of adults that are clueless and just want to do right by their kids. That was me, although I had a lot of camping experience. But why is it top shelf with 50% versus bottom shelf with 100%? Why not 50% on the top shelf and 50% on the bottom? The problem is there are not enough adults with good training. The problem is not that there are adults that don't want to be successful. I agree there are a lot of adults that have limited time, but when there's somebody that really wants to do well, let's have something to give them so they can succeed. For those that have never camped, this is an excellent opportunity to have them learn along with their SPL.

 

My suggestion would be to leave everything as is (for the bottom shelf) but add a course that spends a weekend on how to implement boy led and really dive into the nuts and bolts of how to make the methods of scouting work, and how these parts work together. Explain why 300' is important. Send the SM home with a binder full of ideas that actually work, as opposed to vague platitudes. We're guys, we need blunt! Someone needs to say that 300' doesn't work if you have 75 lb patrol boxes. 300' doesn't work unless the adults give the scouts real responsibility for the well being of their patrol. Explain how to deal with helicopter parents. Explain how to set boundaries and then stay outside of them. Explain how to get the best kids in a patrol to be the leader. I would absolutely sign up to take such a class and I know a lot of adults, mostly new, that would really appreciate some help.

[walk in the woods]

I agree with the idea that character and adventure go hand in hand. Adventure in the outdoors leads to problems which leads to learning how to deal with those problems. Match that with good character and you have a man. Either one by itself leads to either a church youth group or an REI minor league.

 

The character part of scouting is strong. The part that's lacking is where the scout makes decisions and takes responsibility for himself and others. It's getting harder to do that with helicopter parents, rules from above that limit a lot of fun, and kids that honestly expect to be told exactly what to do. I have a mom that sent his son's patrol email "because he's not very organized" (what a fight that was). We can't climb on rocks above waist high. Really? These kids ski and bike off of rocks higher than waist high.

 

Anyway, Kudu has a point that, while harshly made, I'm finding more and more important. We're moving away from the adventure and that's what a lot of kids want and that's where they learn. There's a way to get back to it and do it safely but there's nothing I see from National that's helping that. Not JTE, not ILST, not Woodbadge. Maybe back in the day of Hillcourt all the adults naturally knew how to do this but they don't now.

idk guys. If the answer is adventure, why doesn't venturing have 2MM members alone and climbing? I mean wasn't that part of the promise of Venturing? Not trying to be critical of the Venturing program at all here, but, it seems like the answer to increasing membership has to be larger than just adventure and bigger than just 300'. I personally think our society has urbanized (and suburbanized) to the point that anything outdoors is considered extreme and the pool of potential members is simply drying up.

[Kudu]

I agree with the idea that character and adventure go hand in hand. Adventure in the outdoors leads to problems which leads to learning how to deal with those problems. Match that with good character and you have a man. Either one by itself leads to either a church youth group or an REI minor league.

 

The character part of scouting is strong. The part that's lacking is where the scout makes decisions and takes responsibility for himself and others. It's getting harder to do that with helicopter parents, rules from above that limit a lot of fun, and kids that honestly expect to be told exactly what to do. I have a mom that sent his son's patrol email "because he's not very organized" (what a fight that was). We can't climb on rocks above waist high. Really? These kids ski and bike off of rocks higher than waist high.

 

Anyway, Kudu has a point that, while harshly made, I'm finding more and more important. We're moving away from the adventure and that's what a lot of kids want and that's where they learn. There's a way to get back to it and do it safely but there's nothing I see from National that's helping that. Not JTE, not ILST, not Woodbadge. Maybe back in the day of Hillcourt all the adults naturally knew how to do this but they don't now.

Short answer: If you present Scouting as outdoor adventure, 80% of sixth grade boys will (in front of their peers) sign a clipboard asking you to call their parents so they can be a Boy Scout.

 

For what it is worth, I compiled a breakdown that lists the reasons parents say "no":

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting_boy_scouts_public_schools.htm

[Basementdweller]

I agree with the idea that character and adventure go hand in hand. Adventure in the outdoors leads to problems which leads to learning how to deal with those problems. Match that with good character and you have a man. Either one by itself leads to either a church youth group or an REI minor league.

 

The character part of scouting is strong. The part that's lacking is where the scout makes decisions and takes responsibility for himself and others. It's getting harder to do that with helicopter parents, rules from above that limit a lot of fun, and kids that honestly expect to be told exactly what to do. I have a mom that sent his son's patrol email "because he's not very organized" (what a fight that was). We can't climb on rocks above waist high. Really? These kids ski and bike off of rocks higher than waist high.

 

Anyway, Kudu has a point that, while harshly made, I'm finding more and more important. We're moving away from the adventure and that's what a lot of kids want and that's where they learn. There's a way to get back to it and do it safely but there's nothing I see from National that's helping that. Not JTE, not ILST, not Woodbadge. Maybe back in the day of Hillcourt all the adults naturally knew how to do this but they don't now.

You keep linking to your grand presentation..

 

I have got to ask, have you actually ever done it, in an actual school during school hours with permission of the school administrator.

 

I am luck to get a spot on the front yard or a table at open house night.

[walk in the woods]

I agree with the idea that character and adventure go hand in hand. Adventure in the outdoors leads to problems which leads to learning how to deal with those problems. Match that with good character and you have a man. Either one by itself leads to either a church youth group or an REI minor league.

 

The character part of scouting is strong. The part that's lacking is where the scout makes decisions and takes responsibility for himself and others. It's getting harder to do that with helicopter parents, rules from above that limit a lot of fun, and kids that honestly expect to be told exactly what to do. I have a mom that sent his son's patrol email "because he's not very organized" (what a fight that was). We can't climb on rocks above waist high. Really? These kids ski and bike off of rocks higher than waist high.

 

Anyway, Kudu has a point that, while harshly made, I'm finding more and more important. We're moving away from the adventure and that's what a lot of kids want and that's where they learn. There's a way to get back to it and do it safely but there's nothing I see from National that's helping that. Not JTE, not ILST, not Woodbadge. Maybe back in the day of Hillcourt all the adults naturally knew how to do this but they don't now.

Yeah, I've had boys sign a clipboard but when mom and dad show up it's a different story. Most of the time it's "If you want to join scouting you have to drop 4H." Scouting rarely wins. Now, I'm more than willing to admit it could be my presentation but I think there's some fear from parents as well. I also think outdoor adventure isn't as relevant for rural kids as the program 4H/FFA puts on. I lose to them most often. FWIW, my schools would never let me bring in a tent, canoe, pine scented fake fire and the like. Like BD I'm lucky to get a folding table near the restroom.

[Kudu]

I agree with the idea that character and adventure go hand in hand. Adventure in the outdoors leads to problems which leads to learning how to deal with those problems. Match that with good character and you have a man. Either one by itself leads to either a church youth group or an REI minor league.

 

The character part of scouting is strong. The part that's lacking is where the scout makes decisions and takes responsibility for himself and others. It's getting harder to do that with helicopter parents, rules from above that limit a lot of fun, and kids that honestly expect to be told exactly what to do. I have a mom that sent his son's patrol email "because he's not very organized" (what a fight that was). We can't climb on rocks above waist high. Really? These kids ski and bike off of rocks higher than waist high.

 

Anyway, Kudu has a point that, while harshly made, I'm finding more and more important. We're moving away from the adventure and that's what a lot of kids want and that's where they learn. There's a way to get back to it and do it safely but there's nothing I see from National that's helping that. Not JTE, not ILST, not Woodbadge. Maybe back in the day of Hillcourt all the adults naturally knew how to do this but they don't now.

Basementdweller: The link lists specific dates.

 

dcsimmons: Apples and oranges. You speculated that society has urbanized and the pool of potential members is simply drying up. But the potential market share of urban sixth-graders who can be sold on outdoor adventure is 80%. The percentage of parents who will actually allow their sons to register is around 30% of the total audience. That does not include Cub Scout survivors already crossed over.

 

The fact that your public school might not give you access is a different issue. If the mission of the BSA was Scoutcraft rather than "ethical choices," we might be more welcome.