Should We or They Be Embarrassed; or Both?

[MattR]

Scout Spirit is an attitude and the SMART (acronym, not shouting) requirements for Eagle won't create it. What does create it is the scoutmaster, and it's very subjective.

 

That said, this is the crux of scouting, this is what parents want for their kids. Better training for scoutmasters is the only thing I can think of that would help.

 

[pcola]

As a scoutmaster, a good scouting experience is my goal for each youth first and foremost. Eagle is great if they want to work towards it. Developing skills, confidence, and a giving attitude are the true products of scouting. Not all achieve it, but if the program is utilized to develop the youth, then that is what we are striving to acheive.

 

Training like Wilderness First Aid, Leave No Trace, NYLT, 50-milers, BSA Lifeguard, Order of the Arrow, Shooting Sports, Climbing, Canoeing, High Adventure Camps and Merit Badge Activities are core in developing scouts.

 

It is also a great vehicle to have scouts associate with adults in a safe environment.

 

We generally award Eagles in our Troop Court of Honor Program, so that they are part of the troop, not set apart, and to keep the achievement in perspective. Striving to have a good scouting experience helps the Eagle Scouts stay in the program, because of the activities and personal development.

[Eagledad]

What the society expects from the Eagle is representative of the time. When I was a scout in the 60s and 70s, OA Arrowmen held the highest honor in our troop. First of all only two scouts a year could be voted by their fellow scouts to be candidates for Ordeal. So only the best of scouts were selected. Ordeals back then sorted out the boy from the outdoorsmen and it would not surprise anyone if the scouts failed. Arrowmen were respected as special forces of scouts. They were the best of the best. Now look at the organization. Not that the Eagle wasn't held in high esteem as well, but even back then the Honor was a personal quest of climbing through requirements. I do agree with MattR that it's the SM who sets the bar on the Eagle in each unit, but I disagree that better training would produce better Eagles. The Eagle respresents a vision of the perfect scout. For some Scoutmasters the perfect Eagle is a woodsman who can survive in the wilderness for months. For others the Eagle is man of character that doesn't let temptation get the best of him. And then for others, the Eagle is the Gold Ring that represents accomplished academia. What is the true Eagle? You can't train visions in or out of someone, you can only train them to follow the directions of advancement. But for the most part, our culture instills what most of us consider are traits of a good citizen. And my experience is that most Scoutmasters are satisfied if their Eagles just represent a being good citizen of our time. Barry

[Basementdweller]

What the society expects from the Eagle is representative of the time. When I was a scout in the 60s and 70s, OA Arrowmen held the highest honor in our troop. First of all only two scouts a year could be voted by their fellow scouts to be candidates for Ordeal. So only the best of scouts were selected. Ordeals back then sorted out the boy from the outdoorsmen and it would not surprise anyone if the scouts failed. Arrowmen were respected as special forces of scouts. They were the best of the best. Now look at the organization. Not that the Eagle wasn't held in high esteem as well, but even back then the Honor was a personal quest of climbing through requirements. I do agree with MattR that it's the SM who sets the bar on the Eagle in each unit, but I disagree that better training would produce better Eagles. The Eagle respresents a vision of the perfect scout. For some Scoutmasters the perfect Eagle is a woodsman who can survive in the wilderness for months. For others the Eagle is man of character that doesn't let temptation get the best of him. And then for others, the Eagle is the Gold Ring that represents accomplished academia. What is the true Eagle? You can't train visions in or out of someone, you can only train them to follow the directions of advancement. But for the most part, our culture instills what most of us consider are traits of a good citizen. And my experience is that most Scoutmasters are satisfied if their Eagles just represent a being good citizen of our time. Barry

If a SM tries to do quality control......the boy will simply move to another troop with lower standards

[Eagledad]

What the society expects from the Eagle is representative of the time. When I was a scout in the 60s and 70s, OA Arrowmen held the highest honor in our troop. First of all only two scouts a year could be voted by their fellow scouts to be candidates for Ordeal. So only the best of scouts were selected. Ordeals back then sorted out the boy from the outdoorsmen and it would not surprise anyone if the scouts failed. Arrowmen were respected as special forces of scouts. They were the best of the best. Now look at the organization. Not that the Eagle wasn't held in high esteem as well, but even back then the Honor was a personal quest of climbing through requirements. I do agree with MattR that it's the SM who sets the bar on the Eagle in each unit, but I disagree that better training would produce better Eagles. The Eagle respresents a vision of the perfect scout. For some Scoutmasters the perfect Eagle is a woodsman who can survive in the wilderness for months. For others the Eagle is man of character that doesn't let temptation get the best of him. And then for others, the Eagle is the Gold Ring that represents accomplished academia. What is the true Eagle? You can't train visions in or out of someone, you can only train them to follow the directions of advancement. But for the most part, our culture instills what most of us consider are traits of a good citizen. And my experience is that most Scoutmasters are satisfied if their Eagles just represent a being good citizen of our time. Barry

I'm not sure what you mean by quality control, but who's to say as Scoutmasters that your vision of the ideal Eagle is better or worse than mine? I'm just saying that our culture develops (brainwashes?) who we are. I know my father has a different idea of what an Eagle should be than I do. I imagine my sons have a little different vision that me and I was their SM. So yes, we should take some responsibility (and some embarrassement) for the kinds of Eagles we produce. We can certainly do better, but first we have to agree to what is better. Barry

[Basementdweller]

What the society expects from the Eagle is representative of the time. When I was a scout in the 60s and 70s, OA Arrowmen held the highest honor in our troop. First of all only two scouts a year could be voted by their fellow scouts to be candidates for Ordeal. So only the best of scouts were selected. Ordeals back then sorted out the boy from the outdoorsmen and it would not surprise anyone if the scouts failed. Arrowmen were respected as special forces of scouts. They were the best of the best. Now look at the organization. Not that the Eagle wasn't held in high esteem as well, but even back then the Honor was a personal quest of climbing through requirements. I do agree with MattR that it's the SM who sets the bar on the Eagle in each unit, but I disagree that better training would produce better Eagles. The Eagle respresents a vision of the perfect scout. For some Scoutmasters the perfect Eagle is a woodsman who can survive in the wilderness for months. For others the Eagle is man of character that doesn't let temptation get the best of him. And then for others, the Eagle is the Gold Ring that represents accomplished academia. What is the true Eagle? You can't train visions in or out of someone, you can only train them to follow the directions of advancement. But for the most part, our culture instills what most of us consider are traits of a good citizen. And my experience is that most Scoutmasters are satisfied if their Eagles just represent a being good citizen of our time. Barry

An example I have seen first hand.

 

A lad comes to your troop and wants to transfer......Seems like a nice enough boy. So you call his current SM for the story. The story is that while he held a POR, he did not complete the job responsibilities to his Satisfaction..... So the lad shows up next week with a completed app that was handed back to him and a suggestion that he should work it out with his old troop.....

 

The lad did not.....He simply shopped around till he found a troop that would take him and his weak excuse as to why he wants to transfer.

[Eagledad]

What the society expects from the Eagle is representative of the time. When I was a scout in the 60s and 70s, OA Arrowmen held the highest honor in our troop. First of all only two scouts a year could be voted by their fellow scouts to be candidates for Ordeal. So only the best of scouts were selected. Ordeals back then sorted out the boy from the outdoorsmen and it would not surprise anyone if the scouts failed. Arrowmen were respected as special forces of scouts. They were the best of the best. Now look at the organization. Not that the Eagle wasn't held in high esteem as well, but even back then the Honor was a personal quest of climbing through requirements. I do agree with MattR that it's the SM who sets the bar on the Eagle in each unit, but I disagree that better training would produce better Eagles. The Eagle respresents a vision of the perfect scout. For some Scoutmasters the perfect Eagle is a woodsman who can survive in the wilderness for months. For others the Eagle is man of character that doesn't let temptation get the best of him. And then for others, the Eagle is the Gold Ring that represents accomplished academia. What is the true Eagle? You can't train visions in or out of someone, you can only train them to follow the directions of advancement. But for the most part, our culture instills what most of us consider are traits of a good citizen. And my experience is that most Scoutmasters are satisfied if their Eagles just represent a being good citizen of our time. Barry

Oh, you meant qualtity control in a positive context, I understand and agree. Personally I've never seen a scout go shopping for a SM with different standards, it was always the parents. Still, there is a fine line between quality controller and gate keeper.

[Basementdweller]

What the society expects from the Eagle is representative of the time. When I was a scout in the 60s and 70s, OA Arrowmen held the highest honor in our troop. First of all only two scouts a year could be voted by their fellow scouts to be candidates for Ordeal. So only the best of scouts were selected. Ordeals back then sorted out the boy from the outdoorsmen and it would not surprise anyone if the scouts failed. Arrowmen were respected as special forces of scouts. They were the best of the best. Now look at the organization. Not that the Eagle wasn't held in high esteem as well, but even back then the Honor was a personal quest of climbing through requirements. I do agree with MattR that it's the SM who sets the bar on the Eagle in each unit, but I disagree that better training would produce better Eagles. The Eagle respresents a vision of the perfect scout. For some Scoutmasters the perfect Eagle is a woodsman who can survive in the wilderness for months. For others the Eagle is man of character that doesn't let temptation get the best of him. And then for others, the Eagle is the Gold Ring that represents accomplished academia. What is the true Eagle? You can't train visions in or out of someone, you can only train them to follow the directions of advancement. But for the most part, our culture instills what most of us consider are traits of a good citizen. And my experience is that most Scoutmasters are satisfied if their Eagles just represent a being good citizen of our time. Barry

Maybe the Current SM is gatekeeper????? How do ya know?

 

This was just prior to my becoming SM....... Our current SM told the lad thats great and he would need to hold a POR with our troop before he would sign it off.

[Scouter99]

What the society expects from the Eagle is representative of the time. When I was a scout in the 60s and 70s, OA Arrowmen held the highest honor in our troop. First of all only two scouts a year could be voted by their fellow scouts to be candidates for Ordeal. So only the best of scouts were selected. Ordeals back then sorted out the boy from the outdoorsmen and it would not surprise anyone if the scouts failed. Arrowmen were respected as special forces of scouts. They were the best of the best. Now look at the organization. Not that the Eagle wasn't held in high esteem as well, but even back then the Honor was a personal quest of climbing through requirements. I do agree with MattR that it's the SM who sets the bar on the Eagle in each unit, but I disagree that better training would produce better Eagles. The Eagle respresents a vision of the perfect scout. For some Scoutmasters the perfect Eagle is a woodsman who can survive in the wilderness for months. For others the Eagle is man of character that doesn't let temptation get the best of him. And then for others, the Eagle is the Gold Ring that represents accomplished academia. What is the true Eagle? You can't train visions in or out of someone, you can only train them to follow the directions of advancement. But for the most part, our culture instills what most of us consider are traits of a good citizen. And my experience is that most Scoutmasters are satisfied if their Eagles just represent a being good citizen of our time. Barry

We had a kid come to our troop after his SM in old troop told him he would "never be an Eagle." He had his MBs, he served in a PoR to satisfaction, camped every month, did a more involved project than most of our native guys--I wish all our scouts were like him.

[acco40]

I do agree with MattR that it's the SM who sets the bar on the Eagle in each unit

I'll give you that the Scoutmaster is in charge of the advancement program within the troop but since the requirements for earning the Eagle rank/award should be the same for all troops - the Scoutmaster should not be setting the bar. I was a Scoutmaster to around 15-20 boys who earned the Eagle rank and I can honestly say that some stuck around to earn silver palms and remained active in troop (youth) leadership and some never returned after they earned the rank except for their ECOH.

 

One of the best Scouts I've ever had the privilege to work with never got past 2nd Class and was a great PL and SPL. The Eagle rank doesn't make the Scout but it is a nice recognition for the Scouts who have completed the requirements.

[Eagledad]

I do agree with MattR that it's the SM who sets the bar on the Eagle in each unit

I'll give you that the Scoutmaster is in charge of the advancement program within the troop but since the requirements for earning the Eagle rank/award should be the same for all troops - the Scoutmaster should not be setting the bar. I was a Scoutmaster to around 15-20 boys who earned the Eagle rank and I can honestly say that some stuck around to earn silver palms and remained active in troop (youth) leadership and some never returned after they earned the rank except for their ECOH.

 

One of the best Scouts I've ever had the privilege to work with never got past 2nd Class and was a great PL and SPL. The Eagle rank doesn't make the Scout but it is a nice recognition for the Scouts who have completed the requirements.

The Scout Spirit requirement is a bar.

[BadenP]

Being an Eagle Scout is way overrated in the scouting community, the newer simplified requirements have made it much easier to obtain than in the past. The truth is obtaining 2nd, 1st Class, Star and Life are equally great achievements in scouting. In my experience many scouts who obtain Eagle quickly disappear from their troop never to be heard from again. Realistically the Eagle of today is little more than just another step in the scouting journey, it is not a bar or an ultimate symbol of success and those who still think it is need to stop living in their scouting bubble from the 60's and 70's and see it for what it is in todays scouting program.

[qwazse]

One of our troop's first Eagle scouts (of 40 years ago) came back for a visit and stopped in at a meeting. The boys really enjoyed talking to him. Hadn't done much in scouting. Retired, dropped in at his council office, and is now an SM for a special needs troop. It's generally a bad idea to judge a person before their whole life plays out.

[acco40]

I do agree with MattR that it's the SM who sets the bar on the Eagle in each unit

I'll give you that the Scoutmaster is in charge of the advancement program within the troop but since the requirements for earning the Eagle rank/award should be the same for all troops - the Scoutmaster should not be setting the bar. I was a Scoutmaster to around 15-20 boys who earned the Eagle rank and I can honestly say that some stuck around to earn silver palms and remained active in troop (youth) leadership and some never returned after they earned the rank except for their ECOH.

 

One of the best Scouts I've ever had the privilege to work with never got past 2nd Class and was a great PL and SPL. The Eagle rank doesn't make the Scout but it is a nice recognition for the Scouts who have completed the requirements.

Eagledad - you are correct the Scout Spirit requirement is a bar so to speak and is an interpretive requirement determined by the Scoutmaster but I would hope that the variation from Scoutmaster to Scoutmaster would not be large and should have zero variation for different Scouts within the same troop (ie. same Scoutmaster).

[PaulSafety]

So this thread started out with this comment

 

"Thinking about how often we discuss the "honor" and "respect" Eagle Scouts so often are shown, and how they are such great positive role models in our society. And, this is primarily very true. But, I am finding myself more and more challenged to accept certain Eagles as particularly good examples to scouts or society. What is particularly embarrassing to me are the great many that now populate our government at high levels, both on the national and state levels.

 

It seems to me that the majority of these individuals have forgotten the simple precepts of the Scout Oath and Law. Certainly few are adhering very well to them, based on their lack of simply doing the jobs for which they were elected. Some have come out with positions and statements that blatantly slap the ideals of Scouting directly across the face. Of course there are similar examples in other areas of our society; but the worst, and most egregious to me are the ones getting overpaid by us to run our country, states, and communities, yet do nothing but spar and barter for money and power for themselves and their immediate "connections".

 

Maybe these are the Eagles that should be returning their medals, since they seem to have forgotten what it still represents, in spite of their actions"

 

It seems that the core issue being discussed is adherence to and demonstration of scouting ideals (aka scout spirit) in everyday life -- especially for those in the public eye where it becomes obvious to reporters who check out their bio file that they are an Eagle, etc.

 

I've also read comments lamenting the "churn out" of 50,000 eagles a year based on completing the requirements, but not integrating a permanent(positive) change in their character to walk worthy of their calling as eagles.

 

How do we build eagles of character? Learning first aid and cooking are good life skills, but they don't really address character.

 

I've heard that scouting ideals are not part of the educational curriculum, but learned through experiential learning (looking to adults and older scouts as role models primarily, and perhaps the odd moralistic scoutmaster minute). (http://troop113.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/scouting-ideals-merely-experiential-or-an-educational-approach/)

 

Tenderfoot requirement #7 says to explain the oath and law in your own words. Considering that this is typically a challenge for an 11 year old, we probably have pretty low standards for what they say and how they explain something as key as "on my honor" (what does personal honor mean to an 11 year old? Did anyone discuss this and what it means to lose one's honor such as a government official who cheats on taxes, etc.) or "duty to God" (many scouters have confided to me that they're afraid to get into these discussions since many scouts come from "unchurched" homes and despite the assurance of the first clause of the declaration of religious principles actually arguing our responsibility to have that discussion) or the duty to self trio.

 

How are we raising the bar on character?

 

Character development is 1/3rd of the aims of BSA, but I fear it's far less than 1/3rd of the time spent during "program time" at most units considering the apparent results or legacy of scouts growing up to be people of questioned character.

 

Does every unit encourage its members to participate in the PRAY program that best suits their home/family faith, and if unchurched, to simply pick one and learn about it? Controversial question on my part, I realize, but consider that the declaration of religious principle states that

 

"Section 1. Declaration of Religious Principle, clause 1.The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law." The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore,recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

 

I highlighted the word nonsectarian since many think it actually says "SILENT" or "INDIFFERENT". Based on this reading, I would assume that most units schedule at least an annual presentation on the program (or its approximate equivalent in the local CO, etc.) just like they'd promote an OA election or NYLT -- all of which are optional programs, but still helpful to the individual in accomplishing Personal Growth (as a bone fide "method" of scouting that is equally important as the "outdoor program" or "boy led patrol method")

 

Isn't the new JTE matrix covering this for 2014?

 

Anyway, I'd love to hear how other units are getting to that critical "aim" of scouting -- building character.

 

http://troop113.wordpress.com/2013/04/25/methods-of-scouting-introduction/