Is BALOO required for pack campout ?

[blw2]

Well, actually my real complaint is that the paid folks down at council should be doing it, not sloughing it onto the volunteers that already take on plenty at the unit level. If they don't have the skillset, they should learn it. I know that's not how it operates, but from my perspective it should be......

Given how it is currently set up, I think the paid folks should at least be facilitating in a big way, so that the volunteer teachers have minimal time demands to make it happen.

 

You're right, it's never a great time....... if the date is set well enough in advance then it can often be worked around. Your plan would likely accomplish this, but it also opens up other issues. Let's say you schedule it on the first Saturday of November. There will very likely be at least some that have something else scheduled on that same Saturday...... For us it's our CO's fall festival. Then let's say you schedule your February class on the 1st Saturday of Feb..... what if my pack ALWAYS has it's B&G that day? I promise you one thing, you aint ever getting any folks from my pack trained....... as a provider, you simply just are not serving your "customer". That's why more frequent choices would be nice......seems to me that one early summer, one late summer, one fall winter, and one spring would fit much better to the need.

 

From the Cub leader perspective, our summers are the time that we have available for things such as training. Sure there might be the odd family vacation week or even a week off to summer camp for a few of us that would conflict, but things in the summer slow way way down.....

 

Come this time of the year it's nuts! Round-up planning, 2-3 den meetings per month, a pack meeting, monthly committee meetings, maybe a camping trip or other outing almost every month to plan, attending said trips, popcorn training, popcorn pick-up and coordination, round table, B&G to plan and facilitate, pinewood derby, trips across town to get awards and such at the scout store, etc.....

and then there's homework that needs bird dogging every night, other school events and functions, some might have school sports or band kicking into high gear, many have fall and spring sports kicking into high gear, the holidays.....

.... and then you want me to do what?

[King Ding Dong]

Wait a minute......so you said not one that didn't conflict with a pack event.........so you couldn't miss one event to get trained?????

 

That's right, basement. I don't remember the exact situations now, but there was only one or maybe two times.... and they conflicted with something big..... so no, I'm not going to have my son & I miss out on a major pack event to do something that should be offered much more often than it is. I'm not talking about a den meeting, I'm talking about a camp or a trip or something. Honestly, there should be no reason for me to even have to miss a den meeting for training. I thin it's mainly my district, but to a lessor extend the neighboring districts too..... but these things should be offered much more often..... and yes, they need to be offered over the summer when the students can actually attend.

 

Let's turn this around.....Are you implying that if you were a trainer, you wouldn't miss out on going to jamboree to teach a class for the many Cub leaders that need to take a class over the summer?.... but if our Pack planned a trip to say, sleep on an aircraft carrier, that I should miss that trip and make my son miss out, so that I could attend Baloo?

BD, were you a trainer offering 4 different IOLS sessions or is that how long your IOLS course is. Mine was a Saturday indoors and a Friday evening through Sunday afternoon.

[Basementdweller]

Wait a minute......so you said not one that didn't conflict with a pack event.........so you couldn't miss one event to get trained?????

 

That's right, basement. I don't remember the exact situations now, but there was only one or maybe two times.... and they conflicted with something big..... so no, I'm not going to have my son & I miss out on a major pack event to do something that should be offered much more often than it is. I'm not talking about a den meeting, I'm talking about a camp or a trip or something. Honestly, there should be no reason for me to even have to miss a den meeting for training. I thin it's mainly my district, but to a lessor extend the neighboring districts too..... but these things should be offered much more often..... and yes, they need to be offered over the summer when the students can actually attend.

 

Let's turn this around.....Are you implying that if you were a trainer, you wouldn't miss out on going to jamboree to teach a class for the many Cub leaders that need to take a class over the summer?.... but if our Pack planned a trip to say, sleep on an aircraft carrier, that I should miss that trip and make my son miss out, so that I could attend Baloo?

Our IOLS course is 4 weekends.....First three sessions are Saturday only...The last is a full weekend.

 

I staffed it a couple of years and it really blew a hole in my scouting calendar.....I would need to plan for 3 complete weekends at a scout camp an hour from home.... It impacted the troop program as I was the second adult.

[Basementdweller]

Well, actually my real complaint is that the paid folks down at council should be doing it, not sloughing it onto the volunteers that already take on plenty at the unit level. If they don't have the skillset, they should learn it. I know that's not how it operates, but from my perspective it should be......

Given how it is currently set up, I think the paid folks should at least be facilitating in a big way, so that the volunteer teachers have minimal time demands to make it happen.

 

You're right, it's never a great time....... if the date is set well enough in advance then it can often be worked around. Your plan would likely accomplish this, but it also opens up other issues. Let's say you schedule it on the first Saturday of November. There will very likely be at least some that have something else scheduled on that same Saturday...... For us it's our CO's fall festival. Then let's say you schedule your February class on the 1st Saturday of Feb..... what if my pack ALWAYS has it's B&G that day? I promise you one thing, you aint ever getting any folks from my pack trained....... as a provider, you simply just are not serving your "customer". That's why more frequent choices would be nice......seems to me that one early summer, one late summer, one fall winter, and one spring would fit much better to the need.

 

From the Cub leader perspective, our summers are the time that we have available for things such as training. Sure there might be the odd family vacation week or even a week off to summer camp for a few of us that would conflict, but things in the summer slow way way down.....

 

Come this time of the year it's nuts! Round-up planning, 2-3 den meetings per month, a pack meeting, monthly committee meetings, maybe a camping trip or other outing almost every month to plan, attending said trips, popcorn training, popcorn pick-up and coordination, round table, B&G to plan and facilitate, pinewood derby, trips across town to get awards and such at the scout store, etc.....

and then there's homework that needs bird dogging every night, other school events and functions, some might have school sports or band kicking into high gear, many have fall and spring sports kicking into high gear, the holidays.....

.... and then you want me to do what?

Everybody's schedule is full.

 

I have the same issues as you do........

 

As a District or council trainer you can offer it and know that you will never please everyone on the date.

 

So you don't like the way training is run or scheduled????? Like I tell my parents........

 

Here is the application, go take the courses that you need to be a baloo trainer and offer it when you think it needs to be offered.....

 

You see a need, you can complain about it, whine wimper and cry to council......Why not step up and fix it.

 

I am telling you once your scout joins the troop you will appreciate there is no down time in Boy Scouting or venturing.

[Basementdweller]

Well, actually my real complaint is that the paid folks down at council should be doing it, not sloughing it onto the volunteers that already take on plenty at the unit level. If they don't have the skillset, they should learn it. I know that's not how it operates, but from my perspective it should be......

Given how it is currently set up, I think the paid folks should at least be facilitating in a big way, so that the volunteer teachers have minimal time demands to make it happen.

 

You're right, it's never a great time....... if the date is set well enough in advance then it can often be worked around. Your plan would likely accomplish this, but it also opens up other issues. Let's say you schedule it on the first Saturday of November. There will very likely be at least some that have something else scheduled on that same Saturday...... For us it's our CO's fall festival. Then let's say you schedule your February class on the 1st Saturday of Feb..... what if my pack ALWAYS has it's B&G that day? I promise you one thing, you aint ever getting any folks from my pack trained....... as a provider, you simply just are not serving your "customer". That's why more frequent choices would be nice......seems to me that one early summer, one late summer, one fall winter, and one spring would fit much better to the need.

 

From the Cub leader perspective, our summers are the time that we have available for things such as training. Sure there might be the odd family vacation week or even a week off to summer camp for a few of us that would conflict, but things in the summer slow way way down.....

 

Come this time of the year it's nuts! Round-up planning, 2-3 den meetings per month, a pack meeting, monthly committee meetings, maybe a camping trip or other outing almost every month to plan, attending said trips, popcorn training, popcorn pick-up and coordination, round table, B&G to plan and facilitate, pinewood derby, trips across town to get awards and such at the scout store, etc.....

and then there's homework that needs bird dogging every night, other school events and functions, some might have school sports or band kicking into high gear, many have fall and spring sports kicking into high gear, the holidays.....

.... and then you want me to do what?

That is why the training team in each district need to put their heads together and try to not overlap the exact same training in the same month....

 

in our council we have three baloo sessions in the month of october......two on the same day. Wny not space them out one in sept one in oct one in november.

[blw2]

Of course you have the same issues. Everyone with kids does.

You're pushing so hard to do the training in October, November, or whatever.... that tells me that this time is slower for you. Maybe only slightly, but slower none the less. that just so happens to not be the slow time for the students of BALOO..... so I'm pushing for somebody (not you) to offer the required training when I can take it, OR don't require the training!

 

So, I suggest that we not try to make me as a Pack Scouter fit into your schedule as a Troop Scouter anymore than I should try to make you fit into mine. Again , that's why it's much more logical in my mind to shoulder this training onto council personnel. In my mind, they are getting paid to help me and all of us volunteers put on a good program and as a side result keep their roster numbers up...... so give us some help!

 

oh, and throwing that junk out about if I don't like something, step up and fix it. That's what I did by making calls, tracking people down, emailing back and forth, asking questions, making suggestions......I could do like the 90% of other scouters, well at least the ones I know, and just soldier on not even looking for the training, but no. When our former CM pointed out that we were light on the required BALOO trained leaders, I started searching

 

It's funny, I'm thinking back to the surprised look on the DE's and district trainer's faces at a round table some time last year, when I pointed out this need for summer training.... and several other Cub Scouters stepped up in agreement. Like it's never been thought of. I guess it's only logical since most scouters eventually "cross over" to troops..... and that's where much of the focus is.

 

After all of this work for years, and taking a Saturday out of my busy fall.....I sure do hope that it's valuable. Oh, and did I mention that I cancelled a family camping trip the weekend next month when this course is being offered?

 

[Basementdweller]

Of course you have the same issues. Everyone with kids does.

You're pushing so hard to do the training in October, November, or whatever.... that tells me that this time is slower for you. Maybe only slightly, but slower none the less. that just so happens to not be the slow time for the students of BALOO..... so I'm pushing for somebody (not you) to offer the required training when I can take it, OR don't require the training!

 

So, I suggest that we not try to make me as a Pack Scouter fit into your schedule as a Troop Scouter anymore than I should try to make you fit into mine. Again , that's why it's much more logical in my mind to shoulder this training onto council personnel. In my mind, they are getting paid to help me and all of us volunteers put on a good program and as a side result keep their roster numbers up...... so give us some help!

 

oh, and throwing that junk out about if I don't like something, step up and fix it. That's what I did by making calls, tracking people down, emailing back and forth, asking questions, making suggestions......I could do like the 90% of other scouters, well at least the ones I know, and just soldier on not even looking for the training, but no. When our former CM pointed out that we were light on the required BALOO trained leaders, I started searching

 

It's funny, I'm thinking back to the surprised look on the DE's and district trainer's faces at a round table some time last year, when I pointed out this need for summer training.... and several other Cub Scouters stepped up in agreement. Like it's never been thought of. I guess it's only logical since most scouters eventually "cross over" to troops..... and that's where much of the focus is.

 

After all of this work for years, and taking a Saturday out of my busy fall.....I sure do hope that it's valuable. Oh, and did I mention that I cancelled a family camping trip the weekend next month when this course is being offered?

Cry me a river....

 

There are what 50 something other weekends available to take your family camping.......

 

We all make sacrifices for scouting........you just need to decide if it is worth it or not.

 

I cannot tell you how much family stuff has been shuffled around for scouting....... Two dates that I will never plan scouting on is Anniversary and the wifes birthday.

 

That is where your wrong there are no slow times, With Patrol outings, Troop outings, PLC meetings, Troop and Pack Committee meetings, Troop meetings, , merit badge outings, But that is when we have new parents all stoked up and ready to take it and locally Packs camp in October and May typically.

[blw2]

Brilliant!

[Basementdweller]

Brilliant!

Sorry you didn't like my response.....There are hundreds of scouting volunteers all making sacrifices to put on a decent program for the boys......Canceling a family campout is small potatoes.

 

 

"oh, and throwing that junk out about if I don't like something, step up and fix it. "

 

So making phone calls and demanding a summer offering when the training staff is busy.... How is that fixing it????

 

I challenge you to step up and make a difference.... Take the appropriate training courses and become the Lead Trainer for your districts SUMMER Cub scout training courses.....Owl and Baloo

 

 

Not much into sympathy or excuses..

[blw2]

Brilliant!

Thank you so much!

[King Ding Dong]

This is fun. Don't let him push your buttons blw2. You both have some excellent points. I don't know your council's schedule but offering training more often would be nice. The problem is getting people to show up. At least in my council I know all the professional scouters are running themselves hard to to keep the camps going. My DE has only a 24 hour break each week. From what I have seen most of these guys are fundraisers and paper pushers so you really don't want them conducting training classes, they would be useless. Better to learn from someone that actually spends time in units. I am just guessing here but I suspect there is only a small minority that want training in the summer, but I would be game. I do accept some excuses for not getting trained but not many. If you work for company owned by Bain Capital, their mantra is "work em like dogs", so a free weekend is rare. My head about exploded when I asked one dad to take climbing training with me. "I can't do anymore training, then I get asked to come along on these events." It took all I had to not tell him his son will not be allowed at these events. Sorry to interrupt your golf tournament on TV.

[Basementdweller]

Awe come on don't let him off the hook that easy. So you think the DE's are rabid during the FOS campaign now.....

 

Add a training team of professionals.....how much is that gonna cost a year???? $250,000????? So how much needs to be charged pay for it????? Your 50 dollar IOLS course now costs $200?????

 

Oh there are huge benefits to a Professional training team....

No more Boy scout leaders making the new cub leaders feeling inferior...

No more testosterone laden leaders droning on about their scouting exploits when we are supposed to be learning about LNT or backpacking stoves.

Consistency of the training provided

Removal of IOLS course rivalry's

Quality presentations and equipment

Quality training materials More frequent course offerings

Volunteers can concentrate on their units... ​

 

With my woodbadge experience I would have taken a professional training staff. no mom son fighting..... No more grab ass at troop meetings at Gilwell for hours.

[King Ding Dong]

Awe come on don't let him off the hook that easy. So you think the DE's are rabid during the FOS campaign now.....

 

Add a training team of professionals.....how much is that gonna cost a year???? $250,000????? So how much needs to be charged pay for it????? Your 50 dollar IOLS course now costs $200?????

 

Oh there are huge benefits to a Professional training team....

No more Boy scout leaders making the new cub leaders feeling inferior...

No more testosterone laden leaders droning on about their scouting exploits when we are supposed to be learning about LNT or backpacking stoves.

Consistency of the training provided

Removal of IOLS course rivalry's

Quality presentations and equipment

Quality training materials More frequent course offerings

Volunteers can concentrate on their units... ​

 

With my woodbadge experience I would have taken a professional training staff. no mom son fighting..... No more grab ass at troop meetings at Gilwell for hours.

Obviosly the training programs differ greatly. My IOLS training staff was as good or better than corporate session. There were at least 20 of them for a class of 50. No droning on, except for the usual BP, Boer War, Zulus stuff. Timers in the back signaling to end segments. The vast majority of the staff no longer had children in scouting.

 

I guess consistency accross the country would be nice, but the cost would be huge.

 

Please carry on you two, I am enjoying the show.

[blw2]

nah, I'm done. I've made my point. Basement made his.

[ScoutNut]

One issue about summer BALOO training is where would it be held?

 

BALOO should NOT be done indoors. It should be held in an outdoor camp setting. Ideally in a campground that the Cub Packs will be using. Just how easy do you think that would be in Summer - the busiest camping season?

 

All of our local BSA Cub camps are booked solid for Summer weekends. The same goes for Boy Scout camps. County/state campgrounds are usually booked up too. I don't know about you, but I am not volunteering my backyard for BALOO training. Not that a city backyard would be a very good camp experience!

 

As a BALOO Course Director, I can tell you that there are a LOT of things that go into putting together a training course. We don't just roll out of bed the morning of with every little thing done for us in advance by Training Gnomes! One of the BIGGEST problems is finding staff! BALOO is not a 1 man show.

 

On time/place - we have to find a place that has a Saturday opening. We have to find a Course Director that has that Saturday available. We have to find 3-5 other volunteers that have that Saturday available to serve as staff for the course. So then you want us to what? Poll all the Cub leaders in the council to find a Saturday that is convenient for ALL of THEM!

 

So, now you have a weekend that is convenient for YOU. However, there are no trainers available that day to run the thing. What happens then?

 

There were a number of times that I had to tap family members to help staff because many of my regular trainers were busy elsewhere. My son, luckily enough, loved working BALOO. He would often get roped into doing segments.

 

Paid council staff do not have the time to run BSA training. They do not just sit around their desks all day sipping coffee (even though it sometimes seems that way!). They are busy. They often work 10-12 hours a day, and often 6-7 days per week. Many have families of their own that they would like to spend an hour or two with. Many have volunteer service of their own in other organizations. Even with all of that, many DE's will show up at at a training session, even if only for a little while, to check in with the Course Director, and answer any questions.

 

BSA councils do not have the money to hire professional trainers. Or professional anything else either. Some councils are lucky to have enough money to keep the lights on.

 

BALOO, like most other BSA training is done using a NATIONAL course syllabus. This means that, other than local rules/regs, the course you take in Spokane, WA, is the same as the course you take in Orlando, FL. If you can not find a date in your district that works for you, check out other districts, and other councils. Pay attention to WHERE the training is being held. The next council over might be holding their BALOO at a camp 15 minutes away from you.

 

Bottom line, like BD stated, put your time/energy where your mouth is. At the end of the BALOO course, when they pass out the feedback sheets, put a very big X on the box that asks if you would be willing to help staff future courses. Then follow thru.