ADCinNC Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Just thrown something out for digestion. So you schedule a Pack campout with no Baloo trained person in attendance....Your in council so you don't need to get a tour plan. The Campmaster at check in will not look for the training card.... It is a scheduled pack event.....Insurance is good to go. hmmmm, Sounds all legit to me...No baloo trained person....no way for council or the powers figure it out....... KDD, Sounds like your district folks need re-training. Cub Camping is Family Camping: "Family camping is an outdoor experience, other than resident camping, that involves Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, or Venturing program elements in overnight settings with two or more family members, including at least one BSA member of that family. Parents are responsible for the supervision of their children, and Youth Protection policies apply." http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss03.aspx and Cub Scout family camping falls into two categories: council-organized family camps and pack overnighters. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/outdoorprogram/camping/cubscoutoutdoorprogram.aspx If you pack is made up only of tigers or wolves, etc, then they are ok, because you are camping as a "Pack", regardless of its makeup, as long as you have a Baloo person along (exceptions being at district and council functions, then Baloo is not required). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Just thrown something out for digestion. So you schedule a Pack campout with no Baloo trained person in attendance....Your in council so you don't need to get a tour plan. The Campmaster at check in will not look for the training card.... It is a scheduled pack event.....Insurance is good to go. hmmmm, Sounds all legit to me...No baloo trained person....no way for council or the powers figure it out....... More wrong advice from someone in KDD's district. The point of my question. Is how does council know and do they even care. By rule dens below webelo do not camp independent of the pack. So what's the difference you ask.... I am going to say something as simple as the way it is put on your calendar Pack and the way you register your campsite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted August 28, 2013 Author Share Posted August 28, 2013 Just thrown something out for digestion. So you schedule a Pack campout with no Baloo trained person in attendance....Your in council so you don't need to get a tour plan. The Campmaster at check in will not look for the training card.... It is a scheduled pack event.....Insurance is good to go. hmmmm, Sounds all legit to me...No baloo trained person....no way for council or the powers figure it out....... I think what he may be refering to is the second section of the Family Camping heading in the GTSS. The subheading "Recreational Family". Lets leave the den only camping issue aside for a moment as that is not the real issue I am trying to understand. Family Camping Family camping is an outdoor experience, other than resident camping, that involves Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, or Venturing program elements in overnight settings with two or more family members, including at least one BSA member of that family. Parents are responsible for the supervision of their children, and Youth Protection policies apply. Recreational Family Camping Recreational family camping occurs when Scouting families camp as a family unit outside of an organized program. It is a nonstructured camping experience, but is conducted within a Scouting framework on local council-owned or -managed property. Local councils may have family camping grounds available for rent at reasonable rates. Other resources may include equipment, information, and training. The point I am trying to make is under what circumstances are you not covered by BSA insurance. Clearly the GTSS allows families to camp as family units as long as there is no "structured program". No mention of training required in this circumstance. Is insurance provided in this circumstance only of you are on council or council managed property or not at all. BD, our council does not have camping cops checking into everything we do beforehand. The issue is when something goes wrong. Accidents happen. ADC, while I agree all cub camping is family camping I see 4 types not two from the GTSS. Family Camping Recreational Family (requires council owned or managed property) Council organized Family Camping Pack overnighter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walk in the woods Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Just thrown something out for digestion. So you schedule a Pack campout with no Baloo trained person in attendance....Your in council so you don't need to get a tour plan. The Campmaster at check in will not look for the training card.... It is a scheduled pack event.....Insurance is good to go. hmmmm, Sounds all legit to me...No baloo trained person....no way for council or the powers figure it out....... I'm not a lawyer or a particularly skilled wordsmith. The following are my own observations and understandings. Recreational Family Camping is what I do when I head down to the lake to fish, camp and relax, maybe have a few adult pops. If I take another scouting family along it's still Recreational Family Camping. Just because we're scouts doesn't make it scouting and we're not covered by insurance. Family Camping is a scouting event with scout families run as a scouting event. It's run as a scout event and covered by scout insurance. We recently had a scouting reunion in my little neck of the woods, Cub, Boy Scout and Venture Crew families all attended and camped. It might involve multiple packs, etc. Pack Camping is a scouting event with a single Cub Scout Pack with the families in attendance. It's run as a scout event and covered by scout insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADCinNC Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Just thrown something out for digestion. So you schedule a Pack campout with no Baloo trained person in attendance....Your in council so you don't need to get a tour plan. The Campmaster at check in will not look for the training card.... It is a scheduled pack event.....Insurance is good to go. hmmmm, Sounds all legit to me...No baloo trained person....no way for council or the powers figure it out....... Here is the bottom line, If you are a Cub Pack camping somewhere other than a District or Council Event, you are required to file a tour plan, which requires a Baloo trained person on the trip. Contact your council for exactly what trips they require one for, as different councils have different rules for requiring a tour plan. Remember, any event not deemed official by the council can result in no insurance coverage, and by filing a proper tour plan, you are conducting an official pack event: "This accident and sickness insurance may be provided for Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Venturers, and adult volunteer leaders registered in the council, and covers them for accidents and sickness (as well as accidental death and dismemberment) while participating in any official Scouting activity. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-018_WB.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Just thrown something out for digestion. So you schedule a Pack campout with no Baloo trained person in attendance....Your in council so you don't need to get a tour plan. The Campmaster at check in will not look for the training card.... It is a scheduled pack event.....Insurance is good to go. hmmmm, Sounds all legit to me...No baloo trained person....no way for council or the powers figure it out....... So your recreational family camping on council property and you step in a gopher hole????? Whose insurance is gonna pay for the er visit???? If your thinking BSA I doubt it. Just as a group of families from the same den camp out at a state park they are not covered by BSA insurance.... If my understanding of the insurance is correct......It is secondary insurance only. Your personal health....accident and automotive are the primary insurances. I hope this entire discussion isn't about insurance. The right thing to do is follow the rules....have a baloo trained person....and not worry about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blw2 Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 "Basementdweller commented #16.7 Today, 11:19 AM The right thing to do is follow the rules....have a baloo trained person....and not worry about it." Kinda hard to do when they don't offer the classes. I've been trying to find a class, even out of my district, since spring 2011. Aggressively looking for something over the summer when our pack slows down, and I have been in contact with several districts, DE's and council higher ups. Not a one that didn't conflict with a pack event, and I think there was only two that did. I'm signed up to take one at my first opportunity, which is next month. ditto for leader specific training. Still not signed up for one of those yet. I'm on-line trained, but would like to attend a group class to benefit for the presentation, and group discussion. ridiculous, IMO. I think these should be regularly scheduled and taught by the paid BSA folks out of council. No excuse leaning on volunteers that are too busy to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted August 28, 2013 Author Share Posted August 28, 2013 Just thrown something out for digestion. So you schedule a Pack campout with no Baloo trained person in attendance....Your in council so you don't need to get a tour plan. The Campmaster at check in will not look for the training card.... It is a scheduled pack event.....Insurance is good to go. hmmmm, Sounds all legit to me...No baloo trained person....no way for council or the powers figure it out....... BD for this discussion I am wearing my IH hat. I want to understand the rules and potential lines of liability. My concern is not the twisted ankle, but the copperhead bite, nosedive into the campfire, or fall from a tree or other serious incidents that can occur and people start lawyering up. I don't want to be "that guy" who allowed something to happen and now the whole school district kicks scouts out. (It is a large district). It is clear to me now the culture of this Pack has been to just go do whatever they want, with no training or concern for BSA policies. I aim to change that. Given how vague GTSS on some of these issue, I am certainly leaning towards ADC advise and requiring a Tour Plan filed, even though the council does not require it in most cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 "Basementdweller commented #16.7 Today, 11:19 AM The right thing to do is follow the rules....have a baloo trained person....and not worry about it." Kinda hard to do when they don't offer the classes. I've been trying to find a class, even out of my district, since spring 2011. Aggressively looking for something over the summer when our pack slows down, and I have been in contact with several districts, DE's and council higher ups. Not a one that didn't conflict with a pack event, and I think there was only two that did. I'm signed up to take one at my first opportunity, which is next month. ditto for leader specific training. Still not signed up for one of those yet. I'm on-line trained, but would like to attend a group class to benefit for the presentation, and group discussion. ridiculous, IMO. I think these should be regularly scheduled and taught by the paid BSA folks out of council. No excuse leaning on volunteers that are too busy to do it. So what state are you in???? I will find one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blw2 Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 "Basementdweller commented #16.7 Today, 11:19 AM The right thing to do is follow the rules....have a baloo trained person....and not worry about it." Kinda hard to do when they don't offer the classes. I've been trying to find a class, even out of my district, since spring 2011. Aggressively looking for something over the summer when our pack slows down, and I have been in contact with several districts, DE's and council higher ups. Not a one that didn't conflict with a pack event, and I think there was only two that did. I'm signed up to take one at my first opportunity, which is next month. ditto for leader specific training. Still not signed up for one of those yet. I'm on-line trained, but would like to attend a group class to benefit for the presentation, and group discussion. ridiculous, IMO. I think these should be regularly scheduled and taught by the paid BSA folks out of council. No excuse leaning on volunteers that are too busy to do it. Thanks. I'm signed up to take baloo next month. The first opportunity in all this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 "Basementdweller commented #16.7 Today, 11:19 AM The right thing to do is follow the rules....have a baloo trained person....and not worry about it." Kinda hard to do when they don't offer the classes. I've been trying to find a class, even out of my district, since spring 2011. Aggressively looking for something over the summer when our pack slows down, and I have been in contact with several districts, DE's and council higher ups. Not a one that didn't conflict with a pack event, and I think there was only two that did. I'm signed up to take one at my first opportunity, which is next month. ditto for leader specific training. Still not signed up for one of those yet. I'm on-line trained, but would like to attend a group class to benefit for the presentation, and group discussion. ridiculous, IMO. I think these should be regularly scheduled and taught by the paid BSA folks out of council. No excuse leaning on volunteers that are too busy to do it. Well there ya go......summer is a busy time for the folks who put on training.... especially in a jambo year. The have troop outings troop summer camp and family vacations.... just because most cub scouting stop..most troops keep going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 Wait a minute......so you said not one that didn't conflict with a pack event.........so you couldn't miss one event to get trained????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blw2 Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 Wait a minute......so you said not one that didn't conflict with a pack event.........so you couldn't miss one event to get trained????? That's right, basement. I don't remember the exact situations now, but there was only one or maybe two times.... and they conflicted with something big..... so no, I'm not going to have my son & I miss out on a major pack event to do something that should be offered much more often than it is. I'm not talking about a den meeting, I'm talking about a camp or a trip or something. Honestly, there should be no reason for me to even have to miss a den meeting for training. I thin it's mainly my district, but to a lessor extend the neighboring districts too..... but these things should be offered much more often..... and yes, they need to be offered over the summer when the students can actually attend. Let's turn this around.....Are you implying that if you were a trainer, you wouldn't miss out on going to jamboree to teach a class for the many Cub leaders that need to take a class over the summer?.... but if our Pack planned a trip to say, sleep on an aircraft carrier, that I should miss that trip and make my son miss out, so that I could attend Baloo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 You have read my thoughts on about the cost of the jamboree on local programs.....so I am not gonna rehash it. But you need to remember that there is also Philmont, Northern Tier, Sea Base, MOAB and now Summit adventure base.....Most of these are two week trips....Add in a Week of summer camp, a week or two of family vacation, the 4th of july and summer is toast. I spent a month this summer away from home at scouting....Toss in my 10 day vacation....summer is over for me..... No way as a trainer or even part of a team I could have put on a decent program........It is a lot of work. So your complaining that the volunteer team that does baloo is scheduling it on days and times that are inconvenient for you..... my experience is it never is at a great time. In a nutshell if it were my responsibility I would do the course twice a year......in November for newly recruited cub leaders and February or march for those who just stepped up to prepare for spring pack camping. Ir would not schedule in the summer because my weekends are filled with troop and personal stuff. If it is scheduled multiple times a year I think that is adequate..... the team putting it on just need to make sure they have it on the district and council calendar 6-9 months before the course at least. Then if the council training team was smart they would have 4 districts do the training twice a year and not in the same month that would give you coverage for all but 4 months. December june july and august. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 Wait a minute......so you said not one that didn't conflict with a pack event.........so you couldn't miss one event to get trained????? That's right, basement. I don't remember the exact situations now, but there was only one or maybe two times.... and they conflicted with something big..... so no, I'm not going to have my son & I miss out on a major pack event to do something that should be offered much more often than it is. I'm not talking about a den meeting, I'm talking about a camp or a trip or something. Honestly, there should be no reason for me to even have to miss a den meeting for training. I thin it's mainly my district, but to a lessor extend the neighboring districts too..... but these things should be offered much more often..... and yes, they need to be offered over the summer when the students can actually attend. Let's turn this around.....Are you implying that if you were a trainer, you wouldn't miss out on going to jamboree to teach a class for the many Cub leaders that need to take a class over the summer?.... but if our Pack planned a trip to say, sleep on an aircraft carrier, that I should miss that trip and make my son miss out, so that I could attend Baloo? Not gonna debate this....So there was no one else in the Pack that could be responsible for your scout on the trip?????? It does not say that the parent has to attend but each boy must have an adult responsible for him. I took 4 weekends to complete an IOLS course....There are 4 offered in our council and all are 4 weekends. So did I miss events yes Woodbadge and the associated ticket items was two three day weekends and another week of training away from home....yes I missed scout events. my baloo course was scheduled the day of our Blue and gold banquet.....I went to the course and came back late to attend the banquet. I did what I needed to do.....that is the bottom line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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