'Rogue' UK Girl Guide troop won't use new non-religious promise, excludes new leader

[packsaddle]

Pack recall you mentioning the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster a while back, I ran across the term somewhere else recently and decided to goggle it. Wow what scream. Seems the the perfect religion for any atheist who has issues with the BSA DRP. Friday is their Holy Day so it has the added benefit of solving conflicts on campouts. Lots of craft opportunities for the Cubs as well.

Yeah, I remember mentioning it but I can't remember the context. I'm not the first to note that the FSM qualifies under BSA 'guidelines'. Me, if I had to choose between that and that mythical 'rock' that some scout executive noted that was also officially BSA-approved, I'd always side with the edible thing. H'mmm maybe that was spaghetti and not pie.....

[moosetracker]

Why did I have this nagging feeling that while no one but, Joe Bob said a peep.. I felt there were people just watching for the entertainment.. It's sort of like a tennis match huh?? "You started it!" "No, you started it".. "No you did".. "Well you were meaner".. I, think you should wait a little while, after all we still need the famous line "I'm gonna tell my Mommy".. (Or does my typing it right now, count?)

 

Hi Guys.. Having fun in the balcony seats..

[st0ut717]

Pack recall you mentioning the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster a while back, I ran across the term somewhere else recently and decided to goggle it. Wow what scream. Seems the the perfect religion for any atheist who has issues with the BSA DRP. Friday is their Holy Day so it has the added benefit of solving conflicts on campouts. Lots of craft opportunities for the Cubs as well.

Pack would Bushido count?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gosh Merlyn! Please figure out why you think I'm disrespectful and a Hypocrite,

 

I've already told you a number of times; you're the one who needs to figure things out.

 

Yes, that statement is correct and truthful the big word in that statement being FRACTION.

 

And you keep pointing out that fraction that you just can't stand. Over and over again.

 

Sorry, again, READ the whole post, and don't cherry pick to twist my words to insinuate different meaning out of what I wrote..

 

I'm saying you repeatedly point out atheists that you don't want in the BSA. Over and over and over and over. I don't care that you would allow some fraction of the "right kind" of atheists.

 

I have atheist friends

 

"Some of my best friends are atheists."

 

Sorry, I don't like people who want to join a group simply to create a hostile environment for all.

 

I've never heard of any atheist who wants to do this with the BSA or any other group. Paul Trout didn't want to do that. The Randall twins didn't. Or Mark Welsh, Remington Powell, Brad Seabourn, or Darrell Lambert.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

You see your problem here is that you've taken something written in The Daily mail at face value.

 

It's also in the Telegraph and on the website of the National Secular Society, but you apparently aren't interested in doing any checking or you'd know that already.

 

It is just that I also sense you are pointing to the GG troop as the only one acting wrong in this story..

 

Hey, they're disobeying the rules of a group they freely joined; if they don't like it, they can start their own group. That's what many BSA members have pushed on atheists and gays for years, but I guess that "rule" only works for rules you prefer.

 

But there is the faction of atheist who want to enter, then kill the religious tradition of BSA, by stamping out any religious aspect.. That group I am NOT welcoming, because they will NOT be respectful of others.

 

Just like you're not being respectful of atheists right now. Hypocrite.

You continue to be a true representative of the BSA's attitude towards atheists.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I don't feel I am a hypocrite for looking for ways that we can all get along, and be respectful of each other.. It is wrong for the religious sector to not want to find a way to include your group.. But it would be equally wrong for the atheist to come in and then make BSA exclusive to only them, and be disrespectful of the religious sector, and their beliefs.. Inclusiveness means finding ways to have everyone resepectful and tolerant of each other.

 

It isn't respectful to assume atheists are likely to act like that. It's like claiming you're not racist, but adding that any black kids that join have to respect the white kids, while not mentioning anything about how the white kids have to act regarding the black kids. You're singling out one group for potential bad behavior and taking for granted that the other group is all sweetness 'n' light.

 

I understand that the oath would be troublesome for some atheist. But, I feel there are solutions for compromise. Such as having two oaths, similar in all but a single line, and allowing public school charters and other charters that are hosted by public places to have the one that doesn’t incorporate God. Have religious chartered orgs keep the current oath, and those who are private charters of non-religious orgs will have their choice of which oath to choose..

 

And the UK Girl Guides certainly could have done that, if that's what they decided, but they didn't. They seemed to think that having one promise for everyone was preferable (maybe they considered it more uniting than having various promises).

 

So why is the above decision suddenly the fault of atheists? It isn't. But you sure seem ready to place the blame on them, when, in this particular case, it's some religious members who are not following the rules, and not even allowing a new leader to take the official promise.

 

Perhaps there are better ideas on how to compromise and be welcoming and respectful of all.. Finding compromise is not being disrespectful of either group.

 

Well, you don't get there by scapegoating one group as always being the troublemakers.

 

Why do you feel in order to respect the beliefs of atheists, you need to disrespect the beliefs of non-atheists?

 

I don't. Why are you lying about me?

fred johnson, you can't seem to read English. I don't feel that to respect the beliefs of atheists means that one must disrespect the beliefs of non-atheists.

 

However, you might notice that I am not claiming that I never disrespect non-atheists. I'm saying that to respect atheists does not require that non-atheists be disrespected.

 

If I hurt your feelings by not respecting people like yourself who believe in invisible superbeings, and who subscribe to metaphysics laid out in the iron-age before people had even figured out that the earth rotates, that's your problem.

[moosetracker]

Sorry, it's the majority I would welcome and the fraction I would want to make sure the BSA planned for how to deal with in a pro-active manner.. I take it the names you spouted out are people who were in units and were removed due to their beliefs.. I am sure they all were great people, and definitely did not want to go in to cause waves.. You can not sneak into a birthday party or a wedding to enjoy the activities if your plan is to come in guns blazing.. You would need to feel confident that you will not melt if you hear a prayer or worse yet, need to recite an oath with the word God in it.

 

Now you could have spent all this time explaining to me, what the difference is between removing religious symbols from any public place, yet these very same people would have no interest to join BSA... Or if these same people did join, why would consider entering BSA a place that religious tradition would be tolerated..

 

If you can only rant and rave about my perception, but have no way to educate me as to why my perception is wrong.. Well, I have to stay with my perceptions.. Your choice.. Try to persuade someone to a different viewpoint positively, or rant and rave and build up the reservation they already have about your cause..

 

It's lucky I personally know a lot of atheists that have built my faith in the majority of your people being very wonderful decent and moral is strong, because if I didn't have that you just spent a day trying to persuade me that I should just be thankful, you group is denied entry.. And as I stated before, they agree with my opinion of their radical fringe element of their group, and understand why people are turned off by their actions.. So you need to also educate other atheists on why this group is not a detriment to their reputation..

[Scouter99]

OK, are we ready for the fire hose yet? I mean I left this thread for just a few hours and...wow!

 

FWIW, Moosetracker is female, not that that makes any difference. Moosetracker, did you ever experience the Merlyn/Evmori exchanges?

 

I suggest a high-calorie, high-carb lunch for everyone. And then sleep it off.

On an unrelated note, I tried to send you a PM but the forum says no go. If you PM me first do you think I'd be able to reply?

[moosetracker]

OK, are we ready for the fire hose yet? I mean I left this thread for just a few hours and...wow!

 

FWIW, Moosetracker is female, not that that makes any difference. Moosetracker, did you ever experience the Merlyn/Evmori exchanges?

 

I suggest a high-calorie, high-carb lunch for everyone. And then sleep it off.

I don't know if it was Evmori that Merlyn wrestled with.. But, I have witnessed him many times when he has a bone between his teeth.. I'm just enjoying the battle.. I figure at sometime you guys will cut us off, or I will tire of it.. That might be soon. I had today off, but have to return to work tomorrow, so probably Merlyn will have to go find another bone to chew on.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Sorry, it's the majority I would welcome and the fraction I would want to make sure the BSA planned for how to deal with in a pro-active manner.

 

Uh, that doesn't contradict what I wrote. I pointed out you keep bringing up atheists you don't want in the BSA, even in this thread, which is about an atheist being excluded by people who refuse to allow her to take the official promise. I haven't said one way or the other about which group of atheists is larger.

 

Now you could have spent all this time explaining to me, what the difference is between removing religious symbols from any public place,

 

"Any public place" includes e.g. churches. I haven't heard of any atheist groups wanted to remove religious symbols from privately owned buildings. Public property like city hall, yes.

 

yet these very same people would have no interest to join BSA...

 

So if they have no interest in joining, why do you keep bringing up "people who want to join a group simply to create a hostile environment for all"?

What people are you talking about?

 

Or if these same people did join, why would consider entering BSA a place that religious tradition would be tolerated..

 

I can't really parse that, but if you're referring to people who want to remove "religious symbols from any public place", like I said, I don't know of any.

Again, what people are you talking about? You haven't pointed to any specific people.

 

If you can only rant and rave about my perception, but have no way to educate me as to why my perception is wrong.

 

Of what? As far as I can tell, you've been ranting and raving about straw men atheists.

The atheist in the Girl Guide story isn't trying to remove anything, she just wants to take the official promise

The atheists in the Santa Monica story from your 2011 link wanted equal access to a public forum. For the previous 60 years, it was only open to a religious group for an annual nativity display. The city council could clearly see that they couldn't keep doing that, so they created a lottery system.

[packsaddle]

OK, are we ready for the fire hose yet? I mean I left this thread for just a few hours and...wow!

 

FWIW, Moosetracker is female, not that that makes any difference. Moosetracker, did you ever experience the Merlyn/Evmori exchanges?

 

I suggest a high-calorie, high-carb lunch for everyone. And then sleep it off.

Scouter99, it isn't working for me either. Hasn't, really, since the new system arrived.

[Eagledad]

Deleted for not being Scout like. Barry

[moosetracker]

Just a quick fly by, during a work break.. Merlyn sorry, for some reason did not see your last post until now.. I will get back to you after work.. I won't poke at you too much though, I see some real constructive discussion in your last post.. I am encouraged, so even though I though I would end it when I returned to work today, I will Try a few more go rounds and see if we can make some progress with some real communication.. But I need more time to study what you wrote, and think about it.. I have one or two things already, but it can wait until I have more time tonight..

 

 

[moosetracker]

Sorry, I didn't get to this after work.. I ended up strangely with another person who thinks like Merlyn.. Someone left the Pack due to the vote & his beliefs.. I thought I had taken him off the email, but to the group, in an email about things we need to discuss.. I put in 2 to 3 sentences on him.. "I don't know who knows this, but Xxxxxx and his son has left scouting, due to the recent vote to accept homosexual youth in scouting. So we will wish him well." So he emailed back to the group that to explain that I had not stated things right, because somehow in that I said "HE" doesn't accept homosexual youth, and that he no longer follows the scouting laws and values.. So I wrote something back explaining what I meant be what I said.. And if anyone doesn't see what I meant, you can ask me to explain what I meant..

 

Anyway.. Merlyn.. Where to begin..

 

Just for clarity..

"

Sorry, it's the majority I would welcome and the fraction I would want to make sure the BSA planned for how to deal with in a pro-active manner.

 

Uh, that doesn't contradict what I wrote. I pointed out you keep bringing up atheists you don't want in the BSA, even in this thread, which is about an atheist being excluded by people who refuse to allow her to take the official promise. I haven't said one way or the other about which group of atheists is larger.

"

It was in answer to this that you wrote..

 

I don't care that you would allow some fraction of the "right kind" of atheists.

 

In answer to this statement of yours:

 

Or if these same people did join, why would consider entering BSA a place that religious tradition would be tolerated..

 

I can't really parse that, but if you're referring to people who want to remove "religious symbols from any public place", like I said, I don't know of any.

Again, what people are you talking about? You haven't pointed to any specific people.

Yeah, my bad.. I must have cut something out and totally garbled the statement.. I was more ask if these type of people would not have a interest in joining BSA.. I was thinking of the complaint of incoming homosexuals being the real effeminate personalities and having boys running around camp in high heels and pink silk, where it just didn't make sense that these young men would have an interesting in camping and hiking..

 

As to your comments as it is always on government property, not public.. I appreciate that is the main intent, but even that goes a little beyond civil disagreement, because most the time, it isn't enough to win, but there is a lot of finding ways to try to use the win to attempt to humiliate the looser.. Yeah, Yeah.. Probably they do it back to you.. But I don't get that with a win from the homosexual community.. They are just thrilled and enrich their lives with the win..

 

Well they don't have to remove symbols, after all that would be vandalism and worthy of jail time.. It's more in your face, insulting and harassing things, that don't just pertain to government places..

 

So if they have no interest in joining, why do you keep bringing up "people who want to join a group simply to create a hostile environment for all"?

What people are you talking about?

and

I can't really parse that, but if you're referring to people who want to remove "religious symbols from any public place", like I said, I don't know of any.

Again, what people are you talking about? You haven't pointed to any specific people.

Take this article.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/ohio-church-under-attack-by-atheist-group-56893/

 

This is by an organized atheist group, not just some yo-yo.. Although individual yo-yo's can do their own damage, and in BSA we usually get the individuals..

 

I know you can say "Well they should pay taxes.." or something.. But there are other things.. Putting their anti-religious message on the Churches Billboard?? (I don't know how it got their, they lied about who they were and what they were going to put up, or they put it up in the middle of the night..) I would imagine something legal or the church could have pressed charges.. This I have heard similar stories maybe not on the property, but on the lawn across the street or next door to..

 

Even with the taxes, I don't know about the law, I mean churches have many business type things that they raise money with, and it's non-profit, and yeah it may pay mortgage & electricity, but I depending on the church, that profit may be paying food for the homeless etc.. Still that is not what irks me.. It is just the continual attack on this one church.. There was a vendetta here, don't know what, but this was personal..

 

Another story..

the Lost Cajun Kitchen, a small, mom-and-pop restaurant located in Pennsylvania. The restaurant made news, because it offered a discount on Sundays to anyone bringing in a church bulletin, and a particular atheist decided to sue them over it. Little did the restaurant owners know just how good that action would be for business!

 

Private business, not government.. Ok Atheists can't take advantage of the discount, but neither can you take a senior discount if it is for seniors, You can take advantage of a AAA discount unless you are a AAA member... So... What???

 

 

Perhaps I am being to sensitive, about this.. But, there hostility, does go over the line of just riding government of religious symbols..

 

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

As to your comments as it is always on government property, not public.. I appreciate that is the main intent, but even that goes a little beyond civil disagreement, because most the time, it isn't enough to win, but there is a lot of finding ways to try to use the win to attempt to humiliate the looser.

 

What are you talking about? Disputes over religious symbols on government property are typically handled by sending a letter citing legal precedents to whoever is in charge of that property, with court cases later if it comes to that. Where's this "humiliation"?

 

It's more in your face, insulting and harassing things, that don't just pertain to government places..

 

Well again, some examples would help.

 

Take this article. http://www.christianpost.com/news/oh...t-group-56893/

 

This is by an organized atheist group, not just some yo-yo.. Although individual yo-yo's can do their own damage, and in BSA we usually get the individuals..

 

I know you can say "Well they should pay taxes.." or something..

 

Of course they should pay taxes that are due.

 

But there are other things.. Putting their anti-religious message on the Churches Billboard?? (I don't know how it got their, they lied about who they were and what they were going to put up, or they put it up in the middle of the night..)

 

Neither of those. Now you're just making things up in order to try and slam the atheists who put up the billboard.

 

Here's more info. The second link even explains why the story you linked to is slanted against the atheist group:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2011/06/27/atheist-billboard-in-columbus-ohio-taken-down-after-church-complains/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2011/10/02/church-commits-tax-fraud-and-the-christian-post-blames-atheists-for-pointing-it-out/

 

I would imagine something legal or the church could have pressed charges.. This I have heard similar stories maybe not on the property, but on the lawn across the street or next door to..

 

So what? Atheists have the same first amendment rights as anyone else.

 

the Lost Cajun Kitchen, a small, mom-and-pop restaurant located in Pennsylvania. The restaurant made news, because it offered a discount on Sundays to anyone bringing in a church bulletin, and a particular atheist decided to sue them over it. Little did the restaurant owners know just how good that action would be for business!

 

Private business, not government.. Ok Atheists can't take advantage of the discount, but neither can you take a senior discount if it is for seniors, You can take advantage of a AAA discount unless you are a AAA member... So... What???

 

Because offering a discount that discriminates on the basis of religion violates the civil rights act of 1964, just like a restaurant that had, say, an extra $5 cover charge to serve Muslims. It's illegal and has been illegal for decades. It isn't too much to ask public accommodations to follow the law.