Servant Leadership vs. Rank Advancement

[Basementdweller]

NSPs aren't forced? LOL. Ok that is a whole different discussion, but with the same answer to this discussion. If two different SMs use the methods differently with equal success, is one program worse than the other? And what if those two different adults went to the same training. I used to have this same discussion with another respected scouter on this forum on our differing opinions of running a boy run troop. He at that time believed there was only one way to run a program to get the BEST results and until everyone was of the same mind (his), they could never achieve his vision of perfection. While I was SM, I guided a servant leadership style program. I know through the years of your post that you did too. But we have a completely different vision as well as completely different program style to reaching are vision. Can you conceive a way to train other adults to use servant leadership without changing their style of using Aims and Methods? Our troop did not put a special focus on advancement and yet we have as many Eagles percentage wise as the Eagle Mill down the sreet that is three times bigger. The only striking difference was the average age of their Eagles was 14, ours was 16. They are known locally as an Eagle Mill, but can we honestly say they don't use servant leadership? How can we measure when a troop uses servant leadership and when they don't? I know a lot of SMs who say they are boy run (including the Eagle Mil troopl) but look nothing like our boy run program. How do I tell them they are doing it wrong? Does anyone reading this thread believe they dont encourage a servant leadership style with teir scouts? I'm not saying National couldn't do a better job encouraging servant leadership, but I do respect the challenge. I'm not really sure you and I agree on the concept and that was how we each ran the troops. Yep, you have to respect the challenge. Barry

When you look at a troop at a camporee or a meeting how do you know a Troop is boy run or led????

[Eagledad]

NSPs aren't forced? LOL. Ok that is a whole different discussion, but with the same answer to this discussion. If two different SMs use the methods differently with equal success, is one program worse than the other? And what if those two different adults went to the same training. I used to have this same discussion with another respected scouter on this forum on our differing opinions of running a boy run troop. He at that time believed there was only one way to run a program to get the BEST results and until everyone was of the same mind (his), they could never achieve his vision of perfection. While I was SM, I guided a servant leadership style program. I know through the years of your post that you did too. But we have a completely different vision as well as completely different program style to reaching are vision. Can you conceive a way to train other adults to use servant leadership without changing their style of using Aims and Methods? Our troop did not put a special focus on advancement and yet we have as many Eagles percentage wise as the Eagle Mill down the sreet that is three times bigger. The only striking difference was the average age of their Eagles was 14, ours was 16. They are known locally as an Eagle Mill, but can we honestly say they don't use servant leadership? How can we measure when a troop uses servant leadership and when they don't? I know a lot of SMs who say they are boy run (including the Eagle Mil troopl) but look nothing like our boy run program. How do I tell them they are doing it wrong? Does anyone reading this thread believe they dont encourage a servant leadership style with teir scouts? I'm not saying National couldn't do a better job encouraging servant leadership, but I do respect the challenge. I'm not really sure you and I agree on the concept and that was how we each ran the troops. Yep, you have to respect the challenge. Barry

I'm assuming you are asking my opinion of what "boy run" looks from the outside. Independent decision making and group dynamics without the adults. Barry

[Kudu]

NSPs aren't forced? LOL. Ok that is a whole different discussion, but with the same answer to this discussion. If two different SMs use the methods differently with equal success, is one program worse than the other? And what if those two different adults went to the same training. I used to have this same discussion with another respected scouter on this forum on our differing opinions of running a boy run troop. He at that time believed there was only one way to run a program to get the BEST results and until everyone was of the same mind (his), they could never achieve his vision of perfection. While I was SM, I guided a servant leadership style program. I know through the years of your post that you did too. But we have a completely different vision as well as completely different program style to reaching are vision. Can you conceive a way to train other adults to use servant leadership without changing their style of using Aims and Methods? Our troop did not put a special focus on advancement and yet we have as many Eagles percentage wise as the Eagle Mill down the sreet that is three times bigger. The only striking difference was the average age of their Eagles was 14, ours was 16. They are known locally as an Eagle Mill, but can we honestly say they don't use servant leadership? How can we measure when a troop uses servant leadership and when they don't? I know a lot of SMs who say they are boy run (including the Eagle Mil troopl) but look nothing like our boy run program. How do I tell them they are doing it wrong? Does anyone reading this thread believe they dont encourage a servant leadership style with teir scouts? I'm not saying National couldn't do a better job encouraging servant leadership, but I do respect the challenge. I'm not really sure you and I agree on the concept and that was how we each ran the troops. Yep, you have to respect the challenge. Barry

Adult voices.

[qwazse]

"EDGE is a teaching skill, but if the boy only teaches because he gains advancement, what's the big deal?"

 

Resist. Resist. Resist. Can't do it ...

 

EDGE undermines servant leadership from step 1. Explain. This presumes that you have something someone else can't get any other way. Now, that does happen from time to time. (For example for some fundamental process, you may come up with an English acronym that nobody else knows of and your Korean scout can't figure out!) In terms of scout skills, that simply isn't the case.

 

Servant leadership says, "Let's find a common reference. Do you have your book?" and works from there. It encourages a person to believe that skill attainment is in the learner's own hand[book]s. It promises community with a wider body than just the teacher and student. When that community falls short (perhaps because the student doesn't read well or the publisher confounded the material -- at least for this individual), it offers the more intimate fellowship to step through the reference together.

 

The first step to using the advancement program for the purposes of develop servant leadership is to abandon EDGE and provide your boys with the teaching method that lifted the West out of the Dark Ages.

[Kudu]

NSPs aren't forced? LOL. Ok that is a whole different discussion, but with the same answer to this discussion. If two different SMs use the methods differently with equal success, is one program worse than the other? And what if those two different adults went to the same training. I used to have this same discussion with another respected scouter on this forum on our differing opinions of running a boy run troop. He at that time believed there was only one way to run a program to get the BEST results and until everyone was of the same mind (his), they could never achieve his vision of perfection. While I was SM, I guided a servant leadership style program. I know through the years of your post that you did too. But we have a completely different vision as well as completely different program style to reaching are vision. Can you conceive a way to train other adults to use servant leadership without changing their style of using Aims and Methods? Our troop did not put a special focus on advancement and yet we have as many Eagles percentage wise as the Eagle Mill down the sreet that is three times bigger. The only striking difference was the average age of their Eagles was 14, ours was 16. They are known locally as an Eagle Mill, but can we honestly say they don't use servant leadership? How can we measure when a troop uses servant leadership and when they don't? I know a lot of SMs who say they are boy run (including the Eagle Mil troopl) but look nothing like our boy run program. How do I tell them they are doing it wrong? Does anyone reading this thread believe they dont encourage a servant leadership style with teir scouts? I'm not saying National couldn't do a better job encouraging servant leadership, but I do respect the challenge. I'm not really sure you and I agree on the concept and that was how we each ran the troops. Yep, you have to respect the challenge. Barry

(The lack thereof)

[MattR]

Jblake, I agree with you, absolutely. The selfish should be balanced by the selfless. That's a well rounded scout.

 

What can the BSA do? Based on JTE and the Venture rewrite, I don't see anything useful.

 

I like what you're ideas are, but they can't be requirements and check boxes. As you said, a culture change is needed. The only way I can see that is if the adults truly understand what the methods are and also how to implement them.

 

I'd like to see better training or information for scoutmasters. The scoutmaster handbook is a nice introduction but it could go a lot deeper into the methods of scouting. Not just a paragraph for each method but at least a chapter, as well as how the methods work together and how to get them working in a troop. The patrol method section could include a good description of what leadership is and how to develop it. I would really like to see such a manual and I know many other scouters that would use it, too. The next best alternative is discussions like this website but often adults are trying to fix symptoms and not the underlying problem. Most adults want to do a good job, but they just don't know how.

[Stosh]

"EDGE is a teaching skill, but if the boy only teaches because he gains advancement, what's the big deal?"

 

Resist. Resist. Resist. Can't do it ...

 

EDGE undermines servant leadership from step 1. Explain. This presumes that you have something someone else can't get any other way. Now, that does happen from time to time. (For example for some fundamental process, you may come up with an English acronym that nobody else knows of and your Korean scout can't figure out!) In terms of scout skills, that simply isn't the case.

 

Servant leadership says, "Let's find a common reference. Do you have your book?" and works from there. It encourages a person to believe that skill attainment is in the learner's own hand[book]s. It promises community with a wider body than just the teacher and student. When that community falls short (perhaps because the student doesn't read well or the publisher confounded the material -- at least for this individual), it offers the more intimate fellowship to step through the reference together.

 

The first step to using the advancement program for the purposes of develop servant leadership is to abandon EDGE and provide your boys with the teaching method that lifted the West out of the Dark Ages.

Maybe I should have said, "EDGE is one of many different teaching methods", but if any of the skills learned are only for advancement and not the betterment of the student, then I have a problem with it. Okay, if the EDGE doesn't work, maybe a PowerPoint and laser pointer would work, or a lecture, or maybe I have to read the book out loud to him, all of which are different teaching methods. When servant leadership is used, any and all tools/skills necessary to help the student learn is okay. If the lecture and flip chart isn't working, maybe a story of how the bunny comes up out of his hole runs around the tree and goes back into the hole will work. The boy that sits down and uses whatever skills he has learned to help someone else is demonstrating quality servant leadership.

 

I also dislike the BSA emphasis on EDGE because not every boy learns the same way. The BSA implication is that if you can't figure out how to learn from EDGE, you're a lost cause. So, how does one teach a skill using EDGE to a blind scout? the deaf scout? or the scout with only one arm? We have them out there.

 

So as to calm the waters:

 

There are a variety of different teaching skills available, but if the boy only teaches because he gains advancement, what's the big deal?

 

HASLUAMP method is good servant leadership teaching method (Help A Scout Learn Using Any Means Possible)

 

Stosh

[Stosh]

Jblake, I agree with you, absolutely. The selfish should be balanced by the selfless. That's a well rounded scout.

 

What can the BSA do? Based on JTE and the Venture rewrite, I don't see anything useful.

 

I like what you're ideas are, but they can't be requirements and check boxes. As you said, a culture change is needed. The only way I can see that is if the adults truly understand what the methods are and also how to implement them.

 

I'd like to see better training or information for scoutmasters. The scoutmaster handbook is a nice introduction but it could go a lot deeper into the methods of scouting. Not just a paragraph for each method but at least a chapter, as well as how the methods work together and how to get them working in a troop. The patrol method section could include a good description of what leadership is and how to develop it. I would really like to see such a manual and I know many other scouters that would use it, too. The next best alternative is discussions like this website but often adults are trying to fix symptoms and not the underlying problem. Most adults want to do a good job, but they just don't know how.

Would you agree that the advancement part of the program is easier for people to teach than the leadership part? I'm thinking the easy cop out is to simply make check marks in boxes than it is to sit down and work with boys developing their character and leadership abilities. Other than in the oath ever month, how many leaders emphasize helping other people at all times in their troop. We do an inspection of the the uniforms, but do we do an inventory of the boys' Daily Good Turns? We all know how much more powerful praise is over chastisement, and yet the only time we haul out our copy of the Oath and Promise is when the boys do something wrong..... If SL isn't going to start at the national level, at least let it start at the SM/adult level in the troops.

[Stosh]

NSPs aren't forced? LOL. Ok that is a whole different discussion, but with the same answer to this discussion. If two different SMs use the methods differently with equal success, is one program worse than the other? And what if those two different adults went to the same training. I used to have this same discussion with another respected scouter on this forum on our differing opinions of running a boy run troop. He at that time believed there was only one way to run a program to get the BEST results and until everyone was of the same mind (his), they could never achieve his vision of perfection. While I was SM, I guided a servant leadership style program. I know through the years of your post that you did too. But we have a completely different vision as well as completely different program style to reaching are vision. Can you conceive a way to train other adults to use servant leadership without changing their style of using Aims and Methods? Our troop did not put a special focus on advancement and yet we have as many Eagles percentage wise as the Eagle Mill down the sreet that is three times bigger. The only striking difference was the average age of their Eagles was 14, ours was 16. They are known locally as an Eagle Mill, but can we honestly say they don't use servant leadership? How can we measure when a troop uses servant leadership and when they don't? I know a lot of SMs who say they are boy run (including the Eagle Mil troopl) but look nothing like our boy run program. How do I tell them they are doing it wrong? Does anyone reading this thread believe they dont encourage a servant leadership style with teir scouts? I'm not saying National couldn't do a better job encouraging servant leadership, but I do respect the challenge. I'm not really sure you and I agree on the concept and that was how we each ran the troops. Yep, you have to respect the challenge. Barry

From your comments Eagledad, we are in full agreement on the concept, it's just kinda tough getting some sort of program to promote it to balance out the myopic attitudes of today's youth and some adults.

[MattR]

Jblake, I agree with you, absolutely. The selfish should be balanced by the selfless. That's a well rounded scout.

 

What can the BSA do? Based on JTE and the Venture rewrite, I don't see anything useful.

 

I like what you're ideas are, but they can't be requirements and check boxes. As you said, a culture change is needed. The only way I can see that is if the adults truly understand what the methods are and also how to implement them.

 

I'd like to see better training or information for scoutmasters. The scoutmaster handbook is a nice introduction but it could go a lot deeper into the methods of scouting. Not just a paragraph for each method but at least a chapter, as well as how the methods work together and how to get them working in a troop. The patrol method section could include a good description of what leadership is and how to develop it. I would really like to see such a manual and I know many other scouters that would use it, too. The next best alternative is discussions like this website but often adults are trying to fix symptoms and not the underlying problem. Most adults want to do a good job, but they just don't know how.

"Would you agree that the advancement part of the program is easier for people to teach than the leadership part?"

 

Yes. I tell my scouts that the scout spirit requirement is the hardest one for them to get checked off. They don't believe me until they ask me to check it off.

 

"I'm thinking the easy cop out is to simply make check marks in boxes than it is to sit down and work with boys developing their character and leadership abilities."

 

It's even harder when you're not quite sure how to work with the boys to achieve this. My point is only that I barely understand how to do it right because I've never seen it done right, and I'm ahead of most SMs in my district. I'm ever so slowly getting the adults to understand what I'm trying to do and I barely understand. This forum is one of the best sources of information I have but even then it's not obvious how to do some things. For example, when people say let the scouts run it and get the adults out of there, they're missing a critical point that the adults and scouts need to trust each other. The scout needs to trust that the SM has his back and has trained him well and the SM has to trust that the boy is responsible and capable. I've seen boy-led translate into ignoring the younger scouts because the older scouts just want to have fun. Boy led but not what we want.

 

"the only time we haul out our copy of the Oath and Promise is when the boys do something wrong"

 

That's one thing we do a reasonable job with. At courts of honor I have time to recognize scouts for showing exemplary leadership and scout spirit. At the end of every campout I'll also call out scouts that have really helped out. I'm not sure if it's enough, though.

 

This is also more than just servant leadership. It's really about doing the right thing when it needs to be done. Not just knowing the right thing but doing it. Duty to God and country, others, and self. The scout has to pay attention enough to what's going on around him and step up when something needs doing. They can't wait for someone to ask them to help out, they need to see it on their own. It's an attitude, how do I teach an attitude? Is it just constant repetition? This is as much art as anything. We're working with kids. Again, I need help.

 

"If SL isn't going to start at the national level, at least let it start at the SM/adult level in the troops."

 

Yep.