Troops Attending Church on Campouts

[SMWally]

Article IX seems to even forbid grace before meals. Doesn't leave much room for "a Scout is reverent".

[jpstodwftexas]

Article IX seems to even forbid grace before meals. Doesn't leave much room for "a Scout is reverent".

How do you figure that...

 

Seems Every Graze before my Scouting meals always and still do start with " Will you please join us in a Prayer" or "Please join us in the Philmont Grace" I have never been forced to join a prayer.

 

If I felt a Prayer was inappropriate or overly wind bagged I stood by Reverently until it was finished. BSA is Nonsecular..choosing no religion over another. Most Graces are Nondenominational..Otherwise You have to afford everyone of Different religions and Equal opportunity to say a prayer..Personally I don't have time for a Meal to start with a Roman Catholic Prayer, a Southern Baptist Prayer, United Methodist Prayer, Church of England Prayer, A Buddist Prayer, a Muslim Prayers, A Hindu Prayer and Lord who only knows what ever other Religion is present and wait while they all fight over who goes first..I would simply Bow my Head say The Philmont Grace by myself and sit down and Start to eat

 

[st0ut717]

Article IX seems to even forbid grace before meals. Doesn't leave much room for "a Scout is reverent".

I am not christian. That doesn't mean I am not reverent. you confuse your traditions with reverence.

[st0ut717]

If the Chaarter is in violation of BSA. You have to follow all scout laws not just reverence. There is also obedience.

[Basementdweller]

What is the purpose of this policy ?

They are a Troop that is Chartered to a Catholic church.....The CO tells them they are to do it and make it a part of the program, then you do it or leave based on personal objections.

 

There is nothing Evil, illegal or unethical about requiring it.

[Basementdweller]

In an ideal world, we would always be back on Sunday morning in time for everyone to attend their own church, or no church. But that cannot always happen.

 

For our Scouts that do not belong to any church, the thought has always been it is good exposure at least one Sunday (or Saturday evening) a month.

 

For those Scouts that do belong to another denomination, I wish their churches had 1-hour services at 5:00pm Saturday, and 8 / 9:30 / 11 am on Sunday, and we had enough leaders to get them all to their different churches. But neither is the case. And on many occasions we would not have 2-deep leadership for any non-Catholic Scouts who would stay back in camp. So we all go to Mass together.

Where we go backpacking there is a ridge, generally the birds wake us right at first light........We hike up to the ridge and watch the Sun come up.....

 

that is more spiritual than any church

[Basementdweller]

 

For our Scouts that do not belong to any church, the thought has always been it is good exposure at least one Sunday (or Saturday evening) a month.

 

.

 

I find that terribly disrespectful. I too was a member of a Catholic Troop that had the very same requirements; my boys and I are no longer members of that unit. We joined a Methodist Troop that respects our religious differences. There isn't anyone on the planet who hasn't heard the "good news," this means that if someone isn't Christian (or Catholic) it's because they choose not be.

 

Our current SM is Catholic; he also left the Catholic Troop because he didn't like the policy of forcing religion on to others (He had this crazy idea that people were given free will for the purpose of allowing them to exercise it and that included freedom to choose a religious preface.) Bottom line: You may end up running off your catholic membership as well as your non-Catholic membership.

k...you have a big chip on your shoulder about religion.......

 

The truth is that the catholic SM found the policy a big pain in the ass. So Saturday night or sunday morning you need to find a church, get all of the boys who had been camping clean or reasonably presentable, load them up and haul them to church......It punches a 2 hour whole in the program.

 

I don't like it and would never tolerate it......But the truth is they can require the troop to go to mass....

 

The thing to remember is membership in a particular troop is completely voluntary.

[fred johnson]

Obedient? I hate seeing leaders fall back on that one. I'd like to remember that a scout is not submissive. Scouts is not the military and not a dictatorship. Too many leaders confuse obedient and submissive. Too many leaders confuse leadership and dictatorship.

 

Sounds like by BSA by-laws, the issue is really the troop should not have accepted non-Catholics as members. If you want to be a faith based youth program (which BSA scouting can be), then you need to only accept scouts and leaders of that faith.

 

More specifically, you can't make a deal with the devil where you have an agreement at the start that members of other faiths agree to attend your faith services. Eseentially, if you accept other faiths into your unit, you can't make them agree to attend your services.

 

I reality, I'm 100% fine with charter orgs that would run their units as a church youth group. 100% fine with it. That's what later day saints (mormons) do. But, I've never seen a unit chartered by a Catholic church do that. All Catholic units I've known are open to anyone and very accepting of multiple faiths. The funny thing is that while I've seen the church and the units very accepting of members of other faiths, I've seen multiple members be down right rude and disrespectful to the church that charters their own scouting unit.

[acco40]

Later day saints? Some Mormons are very punctual. Latter-day Saints is what you may have meant. Let's eat Grandma!

[WAKWIB]

Our Troop is chartered to a Catholic parish church' date=' and we identify as that church's Scout Troop. By tradition, and on direction from the COR and parents association board, our Troop always attends Catholic Mass together while on campouts. We pretty much insist that all the Scouts attend together, treating it like any other part of the program. We make it clear to parents of Webelos crossing over, and new Scouts joining the Troop, that this is our policy. Even so, occasionally a new leader will balk and sit in the parking lot during Mass or take his son back to the campsite while the rest of us go. Most of the leaders and about half of the Scouts are Catholic. The other half of the Scouts are pretty evenly split between other Christian denominations or do not identify with any denomination at all. Is there any BSA policy on Troops attending church services together when they are sponsored by a religious institution?[/quote']

 

Frankly, SMWally, on Scouter dot com I think you will find members with a strong contempt for religion by a margin of 2-to-1 or greater. I don't think you will find the best information for the issue you are describing here. Take it up "in-house" and "in-person" with the leadership of your COR and/or Council leadership that might be more willing to have an open, unbiased dialogue with you about the role and policy of religion in Scouting.

[st0ut717]

Obedient? I hate seeing leaders fall back on that one. I'd like to remember that a scout is not submissive. Scouts is not the military and not a dictatorship. Too many leaders confuse obedient and submissive. Too many leaders confuse leadership and dictatorship.

 

Sounds like by BSA by-laws, the issue is really the troop should not have accepted non-Catholics as members. If you want to be a faith based youth program (which BSA scouting can be), then you need to only accept scouts and leaders of that faith.

 

More specifically, you can't make a deal with the devil where you have an agreement at the start that members of other faiths agree to attend your faith services. Eseentially, if you accept other faiths into your unit, you can't make them agree to attend your services.

 

I reality, I'm 100% fine with charter orgs that would run their units as a church youth group. 100% fine with it. That's what later day saints (mormons) do. But, I've never seen a unit chartered by a Catholic church do that. All Catholic units I've known are open to anyone and very accepting of multiple faiths. The funny thing is that while I've seen the church and the units very accepting of members of other faiths, I've seen multiple members be down right rude and disrespectful to the church that charters their own scouting unit.

in reguards to the last statement that is also reprehensible.

[T2Eagle]

I am part of a Catholic sponsored unit. We do attend Mass on campouts if we're not going to be back in time for scouts to attend with their families. We have a few non Catholics as members; we let their parents decide if they will attend with us, if they don't want to they can hang out in the parking lot or back at camp depending on logistics.

 

This probably warrants a talk with your Pastor, I would be surprised if he actually supports the idea of non Catholics being required to attend Mass. It's likely that this is some interpretation or tradition that hasn't been properly questioned in a long time.

[SMWally]

I am part of a Catholic sponsored unit. We do attend Mass on campouts if we're not going to be back in time for scouts to attend with their families. We have a few non Catholics as members; we let their parents decide if they will attend with us, if they don't want to they can hang out in the parking lot or back at camp depending on logistics.

 

This probably warrants a talk with your Pastor, I would be surprised if he actually supports the idea of non Catholics being required to attend Mass. It's likely that this is some interpretation or tradition that hasn't been properly questioned in a long time.

With as often as pastors get moved around anymore, he's the least of our worries. It gets questioned plenty, every few years someone gets offended by it (always a fairly new leader that thought we were just joking about the policy. Funny, the kids never complain without instigation from a leader. They know a visit to some country parish will at least have heat in winter, a/c in summer and flush toilets. Families join our troop for the great program and traditions, then some think they should start fixing what ain't broke.

[SMWally]

Our Troop is chartered to a Catholic parish church' date=' and we identify as that church's Scout Troop. By tradition, and on direction from the COR and parents association board, our Troop always attends Catholic Mass together while on campouts. We pretty much insist that all the Scouts attend together, treating it like any other part of the program. We make it clear to parents of Webelos crossing over, and new Scouts joining the Troop, that this is our policy. Even so, occasionally a new leader will balk and sit in the parking lot during Mass or take his son back to the campsite while the rest of us go. Most of the leaders and about half of the Scouts are Catholic. The other half of the Scouts are pretty evenly split between other Christian denominations or do not identify with any denomination at all. Is there any BSA policy on Troops attending church services together when they are sponsored by a religious institution?[/quote']

 

Frankly, SMWally, on Scouter dot com I think you will find members with a strong contempt for religion by a margin of 2-to-1 or greater. I don't think you will find the best information for the issue you are describing here. Take it up "in-house" and "in-person" with the leadership of your COR and/or Council leadership that might be more willing to have an open, unbiased dialogue with you about the role and policy of religion in Scouting.

2 to 1? I like those odds compared with most people I run across, scouters included.

[T2Eagle]

I am part of a Catholic sponsored unit. We do attend Mass on campouts if we're not going to be back in time for scouts to attend with their families. We have a few non Catholics as members; we let their parents decide if they will attend with us, if they don't want to they can hang out in the parking lot or back at camp depending on logistics.

 

This probably warrants a talk with your Pastor, I would be surprised if he actually supports the idea of non Catholics being required to attend Mass. It's likely that this is some interpretation or tradition that hasn't been properly questioned in a long time.

Tradition or no, whether you give new scouts notice or no, this seems like a pretty clear violation of the Scout Law, the Guide to Advancement, and the Chartering Agreement.

 

I am also pretty sure it is theologically repugnant to our faith.

 

Just because something has been going on for a long time and lots of folks have gone along with it doesn't mean it’s a good idea. You should seek some guidance from outside your unit, both at the Council and Diocesan level, to be sure you are acting properly in a critical area of the program and your mission.