2 deep leadership for activity

[Scouter99]

Scouter99 identified the crux of the issue. Two deep leadership is required for the trip. That does not mean that everyone on the trip must be in the presence of those two adults every moment of the trip. There are any number of instances on a trip where scouts are outside the presence of adults - latrine, fetching water, fishing, etc. As long as they follow the buddy system and avoid one-on-one youth/adult situations, there is no problem.

Dept of Social Services and Child Protective Services. Common sense doesn't apply, which is exactly why it's your job to follow the rules, and this is a particularly easy rule to follow for non-experts like yourself. "Molested in the treetops" sounds wild enough to you, but I assure you it would barely register in the files of CPS. Like I said in my original comment, if it's not an extreme hassle, there's no reason not to do it if the one boy will be out of sight of the group.

[T2Eagle]

Scouter99 identified the crux of the issue. Two deep leadership is required for the trip. That does not mean that everyone on the trip must be in the presence of those two adults every moment of the trip. There are any number of instances on a trip where scouts are outside the presence of adults - latrine, fetching water, fishing, etc. As long as they follow the buddy system and avoid one-on-one youth/adult situations, there is no problem.

Even the no 1 on 1 contact needn't be taken to absurd extremes. " In any situation requiring a personal meeting, such as a Scoutmaster's conference, the meeting is to be conducted in view of other adults and youths."

 

So even if one adult and one scout somehow managed to be on a platform by themselves, it would be fine as long as this was "in view of other adults and youths", which would be hard not to do given that any platform has to be a straight unimpeded shot to another platform.

 

If I'm at the top of a climbing tower I don't have to have another adult climb up with me, or two scouts ascend simultaneously, so I'm not 1 to 1 with a scout at the top of the tower.

[Scouter99]

Scouter99 identified the crux of the issue. Two deep leadership is required for the trip. That does not mean that everyone on the trip must be in the presence of those two adults every moment of the trip. There are any number of instances on a trip where scouts are outside the presence of adults - latrine, fetching water, fishing, etc. As long as they follow the buddy system and avoid one-on-one youth/adult situations, there is no problem.

Exactly, T2E.

[JoeBob]

Scouter99 identified the crux of the issue. Two deep leadership is required for the trip. That does not mean that everyone on the trip must be in the presence of those two adults every moment of the trip. There are any number of instances on a trip where scouts are outside the presence of adults - latrine, fetching water, fishing, etc. As long as they follow the buddy system and avoid one-on-one youth/adult situations, there is no problem.

On the long cables through the trees, you can't see your end point. It is out of sight, just barely, briefly. That's part of the fun, stepping off into the unseen; and then hearing the cable zing before you see your buddies come cruising out of the trees.

 

http://northgeorgiacanopyto.reachlocal.net/

http://northgeorgiacanopyto.reachlocal.net/photo-gallery.php?Date=&Activity=&Location=&Contents=&ImageNumber=&Sort=1&Page=24

 

Any stickler who thinks that being 1 on 1 on any of these platforms is a YPT violation, under zipline conditions; needs to go back to their law office and stop scaring the boys (and volunteers).

[ghermanno]

AK,

 

You are NOT telling us how many Scouts are attending this event. 6 - 8 or 30 - 50. The argument for "Patrol Activity" may be mute. If the "Troop" is going, the adults should be there. They are NOT required to follow each group, but if it is a long zip-line (like a canopy tour) you might want to have a couple of adults at the beginning and end for Safety sake. Those adults should have a working communications system (cell phone, walkie-talkies,...) to let the other group know of any problems (medical or otherwise).

 

My $0.02 for what it is worth.

[Scouter99]

AK,

 

You are NOT telling us how many Scouts are attending this event. 6 - 8 or 30 - 50. The argument for "Patrol Activity" may be mute. If the "Troop" is going, the adults should be there. They are NOT required to follow each group, but if it is a long zip-line (like a canopy tour) you might want to have a couple of adults at the beginning and end for Safety sake. Those adults should have a working communications system (cell phone, walkie-talkies,...) to let the other group know of any problems (medical or otherwise).

 

My $0.02 for what it is worth.

It's "moot."

[jpstodwftexas]

Well here is another issue that may be called into Question..Does this Private Company meet the requirements of BSA Certification for Climb on Safely. If Not Does the group have someone with the right training. I was trying to take my Den to a Local Climbing Tower and Indoor Climbing Facilities but Council said no because the trained professionals were not certified by the BSA Recognized Training Groups..Facilities meet all State Mandated Training and Safety Inspections. So We all just happened to end up there at the same time and did not work on BSA Stuff..

[King Ding Dong]

Well here is another issue that may be called into Question..Does this Private Company meet the requirements of BSA Certification for Climb on Safely. If Not Does the group have someone with the right training. I was trying to take my Den to a Local Climbing Tower and Indoor Climbing Facilities but Council said no because the trained professionals were not certified by the BSA Recognized Training Groups..Facilities meet all State Mandated Training and Safety Inspections. So We all just happened to end up there at the same time and did not work on BSA Stuff..

I am fairly certain cubs and Webelos are not permitted to use climbing towers but can go to indoor gyms. I don't remember seeing a recognized certification requirement but that does not mean it doesn't exist somewhere.

 

Nothing wrong with a bunch of friends getting together for an activity. That doesn't mean it can't count as fulfilling some required or elective in cubs however. Very few cub requirements state "as a den" only. Most give "or with your family" option.

 

Many states are very against "intrusive government regulation" so your states standards may not be very strict. The qualifications of the instructors is something I would want to look into as a parent. I am getting my BSA instructor training this weekend and will know more.

[Basementdweller]

Well here is another issue that may be called into Question..Does this Private Company meet the requirements of BSA Certification for Climb on Safely. If Not Does the group have someone with the right training. I was trying to take my Den to a Local Climbing Tower and Indoor Climbing Facilities but Council said no because the trained professionals were not certified by the BSA Recognized Training Groups..Facilities meet all State Mandated Training and Safety Inspections. So We all just happened to end up there at the same time and did not work on BSA Stuff..

Once again your incorrect....

 

Webelos use the climbing tower at most if not all the BSA Council owned camps I have been too. I have not seen cubs rappel but they use the short side of the climbing wall.

 

tex the problem with doing what you are saying is that if things go bad and there is a law suit, if any thing documentation exsist such as a date on a Troop or pack calendar, email or a map you provided then you will be named in the law suit as well. Then council will say when their turn to testify is that we told him not to hold the event. Just the way modern folks work.

[King Ding Dong]

Well here is another issue that may be called into Question..Does this Private Company meet the requirements of BSA Certification for Climb on Safely. If Not Does the group have someone with the right training. I was trying to take my Den to a Local Climbing Tower and Indoor Climbing Facilities but Council said no because the trained professionals were not certified by the BSA Recognized Training Groups..Facilities meet all State Mandated Training and Safety Inspections. So We all just happened to end up there at the same time and did not work on BSA Stuff..

Cubs and Webelos are not allowed at our council walls. So you may be correct in your Council, once again you are not correct regarding all councils. The distinction is if the equipment and training available is age appropriate.

 

From the Climb on Safety Training Outline.

 

 

Cub SCOuTS

• Bouldering no higher than the climber’s shoulder height, with trained adult spotters. (This pertains to climbing on boulders or other steep faces without going more than a few feet off the ground, protected by spotters rather than a rope belay.)

• Climbing in a climbing gym or using a portable wall or other age-appropriate facility with close supervision and age-appropriate instruction and equipment. Climbing is not allowed at natural sites.

• Climbers will be lowered by a belayer. No rappelling by Cub Scouts.

WEbELOS SCOuTS

• Bouldering no higher than the climber’s shoulder height, with trained spotters.

• Climbing in a climbing gym or using a portable wall or other age-appropriate facility with close supervision and age-appropriate instruction and equipment.

• Rappelling with a trained belayer.

• Climbers must be belayed by trained belayers.

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor%20Program/pdf/430-101WB.pdf

[Basementdweller]

Well here is another issue that may be called into Question..Does this Private Company meet the requirements of BSA Certification for Climb on Safely. If Not Does the group have someone with the right training. I was trying to take my Den to a Local Climbing Tower and Indoor Climbing Facilities but Council said no because the trained professionals were not certified by the BSA Recognized Training Groups..Facilities meet all State Mandated Training and Safety Inspections. So We all just happened to end up there at the same time and did not work on BSA Stuff..

Guess your council program stinks...... go figure.

 

I have attended webelos resident camp in 4 different councils and ALL allow webelos to rappel.....

I have attended Cub resident camp in 2 different councils and both allow them to use the short climbing wall.

[King Ding Dong]

Well here is another issue that may be called into Question..Does this Private Company meet the requirements of BSA Certification for Climb on Safely. If Not Does the group have someone with the right training. I was trying to take my Den to a Local Climbing Tower and Indoor Climbing Facilities but Council said no because the trained professionals were not certified by the BSA Recognized Training Groups..Facilities meet all State Mandated Training and Safety Inspections. So We all just happened to end up there at the same time and did not work on BSA Stuff..

I am glad you are feeling so superior today.

[Basementdweller]

Well here is another issue that may be called into Question..Does this Private Company meet the requirements of BSA Certification for Climb on Safely. If Not Does the group have someone with the right training. I was trying to take my Den to a Local Climbing Tower and Indoor Climbing Facilities but Council said no because the trained professionals were not certified by the BSA Recognized Training Groups..Facilities meet all State Mandated Training and Safety Inspections. So We all just happened to end up there at the same time and did not work on BSA Stuff..

I don't have anything to say about the council program......

 

But wait, I do.... I can pick programs to take my scouts to that offer the most activities and value for the dollar. My local council does not offer webelos activities such as use of the rappelling tower or horse back riding......so we go to other councils that are less expensive and offer more/better activities.

 

Why should I apologize because your council doesn't offer it and folks just accept it...... Take your money and scouts elsewhere and get them the program they deserve.......

[Pack18Alex]

Scouter99 identified the crux of the issue. Two deep leadership is required for the trip. That does not mean that everyone on the trip must be in the presence of those two adults every moment of the trip. There are any number of instances on a trip where scouts are outside the presence of adults - latrine, fetching water, fishing, etc. As long as they follow the buddy system and avoid one-on-one youth/adult situations, there is no problem.

It's Ziplining, there should be someone working on the Zipline at the booth, that's your second adult (doesn't provide 2-Deep, 2-Deep requires two leaders or one leader + one parent), but does cover No-1-on-1. Regarding the 1-on-1 issue.

 

Technically, the leader should never be with a youth, not their child, alone and out of site... Pretty simple though, if there is no employee on the platform, just a parent, the last Scout to go is the Parent's child (1-on-1 doesn't apply to your children), then the parent goes.

 

So if you have two parents, one goes EITHER 1st, 2nd (after their child), or 3rd, and one goes last after their child.

 

If you have one parent, he goes 1st (with his child going second), he goes last (with his child second to last), or he goes anywhere between spot #3 and 3rd from last, therefore preventing him from being in 1-on-1.

 

It's not really that hard to avoid one-on-one issues.

[Scouter99]

Well here is another issue that may be called into Question..Does this Private Company meet the requirements of BSA Certification for Climb on Safely. If Not Does the group have someone with the right training. I was trying to take my Den to a Local Climbing Tower and Indoor Climbing Facilities but Council said no because the trained professionals were not certified by the BSA Recognized Training Groups..Facilities meet all State Mandated Training and Safety Inspections. So We all just happened to end up there at the same time and did not work on BSA Stuff..

I don't understand you two's disagreement, since KDD said neither Cubs nor Webs could use a climbing tower, BD said Webs can rappel and cubs can climb, KDD quoted the rules which confirm BD, (here's where I lost you two) then BD kept up the offensive despite being right . . .

KDD said "fairly certain" based on his council experience, now he knows his council is just more restrictive than the national policies.